I'M DISCREDITED, YOU'RE DISCREDITED


During a phone conversation with Rice Broocks, in what was obviously a well rehearsed spiel, he carried on at some length to the effect that he was established and that I couldn't be taken seriously. He brought up the episode when I wrote to people accusing them of sexual immorality. He said, "You pretty well discredited yourself in the eyes of men like Brady Clark."

When he invoked the name of Brady Clark in such a manner, I realized he couldn’t be taken seriously. Brady was one of the most depraved members of the Maranatha board. Brady and his fiance were both staff members of the Austin Maranatha. While on a skiing trip, they fell into, "nothing less than immorality." She promptly left him and the church. I was in Austin when this happened. I watched Brady during this period. It was not a Psalm 51 experience. He was not taken out of the ministry, and several months later, was sent to start a new chapter at Texas A&M. In short order, he got married to another woman. No sooner than he was married, he was off playing cards with the guys. His wife didn't understand why he wanted to be out playing with the guys instead of at home with her. And he didn't understand why she didn't understand. And she didn't understand why he didn't understand why she didn't understand. It was while he was at A&M that it had to be explained to him that pastors don't ride motorcycles. It was also there that he almost upset the faith of _____ _____ by telling him that it was no big deal if he wasn't in the Word every day. When he visited Austin and was invited to speak to the church for a few minutes, the spiritual journey he chose to discuss was recognizing how immature he was when he caught himself getting disgusted in a restaurant because a couple of police officers were given free pizza. Nothing about what he learned after losing his fiance. This is the same Brady Clark who once applied "the religious test": He asked a question with a mild profanity in it. To prove they weren't religious, ie, stuffy, the other person gave an answer with a mild profanity in it. Curious? I'll let him rehearse it for you.

Rice's own long list of antics and reproaches dates at least as far back at drinking Near Beer in Australia - with Brady. His seminar professors, and the team of high caliber counselors and associates he claims are ushering him into impressive levels of wisdom, insight, and stability, have failed to deliver him of his idolatrous value system, his wreckless and obnoxious behavior, his appetite for foolishness, and his colossal ego. I didn't give this guy a hard time. I submitted discernment to him. It was one of the cleanest, most clinical things I've ever done. At first, I was shocked by his reaction. Then relieved: it was undeniable that he was reacting out of his own disturbances.

Referring to the same episode, Greg Ball said, "You pretty well burned your bridges." He burned his bridges when he refused to hear me out about his deeply flawed personal life. I even offered to let him hear me out in front of the elders. Of course, this was checkmate. But he did not see fit to revoke his repeated insistence that the whole thing was born of my need for deliverance and would go away when that was accomplished.

I need to emphasize that he categorically dismissed even the IDEA that there was anything wrong. Scooting up to me during a crucial meeting on that subject, he declared with oh so much sincerity that he had sought God about my concerns. While he was allegedly seeking God with all sincerity, it escaped his notice that I literally avoided being in the same room with him because of a problem he had with his tongue. During that same meeting, he also tried to convince me of his sincerity toward me. It escaped his attention that only a few weeks before, he was in the pulpit ranting about me because I submitted moving to Los Angeles.

When the situation finally came to a head, he claimed that I was accusing him of having bitterness against me. He went so far as to claim that he didn't have bitterness against anybody. Judging from what came out of his mouth, he obviously had bitterness against quite a few people. Try this one in the pulpit on 2 occasions: "Some of you used to be in the fulltime ministry, and you're backslidden!" Add cynicism. Try this one, also in the pulpit, "Oh if you think I'm not hearing from God, pray, please pray." But I wasn't the only one trying to get through to him. In front of the church: "I'm tired of people saying, 'You said before you were gonna do that and you didn't do it'!" Yes, Greg had a problem with keeping his word. But he was referring to someone else, because I never brought that up.

During my last meeting with him, I caught him off guard. I started confronting him. He thought I was going to confess something to him. It was obvious that he avoided situations like that. He seemed to have an answer for everything. But I pressed on. Given the level of 'witchcraft' he was operating in, it was amazing I held up as long as I did. When he realized that he didn't have any place left to hide, he changed strategies. He stopped me and said something that never occurred to me: bitterness. It didn't occur to me, but he was quick to realize the implications of what I was doing by repeating his words to him. This is so important when dealing with Maranatha elders because they so desperately want to claim that really it's all about someone else. This is all the more evidenced by the fact that I finally gave him what he wanted: I left him alone. For an entire year.

Greg projects himself as the coolest guy in town, but I have seen him unravel so many times. He was immaculately clean cut. His pants that were exactly, exactly, exactly the right length. He was so obsessed with being viewed as cool that he was keenly aware of even the slightest physical movements that make him look awkward. Seldom have I met such a contradiction. Someone who has such a reputation for being so together but is so mixed up and so messed up. Examining the many sermons I heard him preach, I realized that he doesn't even preach the Gospel. 99% of his time was spent responding to culture. 1%, if that much, was spent introducing Christ and the delivering the message of salvation. He claimed to be an evangelist, but did not move in confirming power. The fact that he was so discerning and so articulate also distracted me from noticing that he seldom quoted scripture.

It reminds me of an Assembly of God pastor named Trent Hounchell. I got into a major controversy with him over a Jezebel spirit, which was the same spirit I was dealing with in Maranatha. I repeatedly quoted from the scripture. Not one verse ever came out of this man's mouth, nor did he crack his Bible once. I hit Trent with the concept of scriptural authority many times from many directions. He never blinked.

Like Greg, he insisted there was no basis whatsoever for what I was saying: "I have gone home and defeated everything you've thrown at me. I don't receive any of it." Go home and defeat this: you don't believe in the Bible. But he can put a spin on that, too. And like Greg, he can do it without missing a beat. "I believe the devil is trying to use you to decieve me." The devil was trying to use him to decieve me. I had to go home and defeat what he threw at me. Namely that he knew I was wrong but couldn't prove it from the scripture. Like Greg, he had an all purpose answer. Greg justified dismissing my concerns by saying, "A curse does not alight without a cause." Trent's answer was, "Stand against it." Whatever it was, he would just stand against it. He didn't stand against it.

He and his wife were fond of saying that they had been in a state of revival for years. The pews never saw more than 50. His wife claims that when they pulled into the church parking lot for the first time, she heard an audible voice saying, "This is your church." He declared he was in it for the long haul. They left after 2 years. Like Greg, he can't blame it on me. In addition to claiming he defeated everything I threw at him, in addition to claiming that he would just stand against it even if there was anything to it, the district office completely accepted his version of the situation. Apparently they never adviced him to use scripture. As I did with Greg, I finally left him alone. Trent once saw a vision of a bucket of gold coins being poured into his head - and professed to have never figured out what it meant. The interpretation is having his mind abundantly enriched. Pretty tough to get your mind enriched when you reject God's Word.

Perhaps deeply flawed might be giving Greg too much. He played the fool like few people I've ever met and I can't think of anything about him I want to imitate. One of the biggest spectacles I've ever seen was Greg, one of the worst examples of manhood around, as though he were operating in the spirit of Elijah, casting out Jezebel demons at a men's meeting. As if everything else wasn't enough, Greg was better at cult tactics than Bob Weiner ever thought about being. I spent countless hours unraveling the incredibly strong witchcraft he practiced on me. He kept a poker face while Champions was making headlines, as though the word cult had never been used in his presence, issuing the standard denials and engaging in classic damage control.

Both Rice and Greg told me I needed pastoral care. Pastoral care, like the kind I got under Greg? Pastoral care, like the kind I would get under Brady? Pastoral care, like the kind these guys have been under? Pastoral care, so I can become like them? Nor would they submit to pastoral care. Nor would any competent pastor put up with them. They would vilify and dismiss him with the same lines they have given everyone else who has told them the truth about themselves - "I know what God has told me about my life and ministry," "God's doing a mighty work," etc. Like Bob Weiner before them, these primadonas are self made and self styled, taking their cues from their own brochures.

Pastoral care. Like the kind I got under Alan Tomlin. Alan tried to take me to task for going over his head to the board about Greg. This guy listed putting away the TV and paying his bills on time as major moves of God in life. And anyone who reads Bill Cosby and Paul Harvey in the pulpit instead of preaching the Word, I don't care what he thinks. About anything. But he didn't know when to quit. "I don't appreciate what you said about my wife." I don't appreciate what he said about his wife. He hurt her a lot worse than I ever did, abusing her and embarrassing her many times, in front of me and in front of others.

Don Averit was another one of those Maranatha elders who displayed nothing less than rabbis on more than one occasion. When I brought up a spiritual principal, without relationship there is no authority, he barked in my ear. "If the apostle Peter told someone in the early church to do something, would they have to obey him if they didn't have a relationship with him?" How sharp of Don to immediately ask such a seemingly inescapable question in response to such a seemingly inescapable statement. And my how important the subject was to him. He's another spiritual principal for him: without integrity there's no authority.

To add perspective, _____ _____ once did what so many other Maranatha elders have done, to me and a lot of other people. He cornered me and vomited on me. "You know how when you go fishing, sometimes you catch a fish and sometimes you catch a boot? Well, I've been wondering for a long time whether you're fish or a boot." A few years later, he split one of the churches. A few months later, he dissolved his church, dropped out of the ministry, and moved back to his hometown. I've been wondering for a long time whether he's a fish or a boot.

There was Bernie Boudreaux. Pointing up his fingers at me, he said he was "very serious" about confronting me with something. But when is came time to keep his promise to pin Greg down, he suddenly developed a case of sweaty palms and started speaking another language. Bernie is another one of those people who tried to play the sincerity card, telling me that he sought God about anything he might have been doing that caused me to distrust him. This is the same Bernie Boudreaux who tried to break into my apartment.

We could add a few more names.

After dropping their drawers as many times as they have, after pulling as many stunts as they have, after displaying the kind of appalling personal behavior they have, after indulging in as much wickedness as they have, after as many detestable practices they have committed, coming under as much deception as they're in, after as much damage as they've done, after destroying as many lives as they have, after dodging the cult accusation as many times as they have, after being written up in national press as many times as they have, these men have the audacity to turn around and call me discredited.

KEY COMMENTS FROM THE FACTNET FORUM:

This is how CP Wagner got involved in MSI (Morningstar). First Steve Mureell who used to be a maranatha have changed his ways, have also fired people that are legallistic in his church , this happened after maranatha disband. The whole church, repented of being legalistic. Because he is fruitful, his name is getting known, thats how CP Wagner got to know him. Also since Steve and Rice are friends because of the past. Now since CP Wagner is a well known minister, Steve introduced CP to Rice and Phil NOT KNOWING THOSE TWO ARE ______ (you fill in the blanks). Steve is in the philippines has no idea whats going on here. BUT 2 years ago, he found out Phil is still legalistic and have rebuke him publicly, in the pulpit, in one of the conference.

*****

The media did the "financial thing " at the wrong time, Media should have done it now. Let me tell you why, CP Wagner has a book out, its about apostolic churches. Since MSI is considered as an apostolic church , all these churches are supposed to give 5% of their tithes to MSI. The 5% is used for SALARIES and OFFICE EXPENSE. Instead I see pastors , ministers, people are not getting paid as much they should, we know because we still knows most of the people in there who are struggling financially. Thats why VLI is such a joke.

THEN by the way ski vacation is NOT considered as an office expense OR even a trip to hawaii in the most expensive hotel $$$$ , 2 room by the way for a week. That was the time when Lloyd Manamtam church was destroyed. The worse part, I was told the people in the philippines were praying against Lloyd Manamtam because of the lies they said about Lloyd.

Also I don't know if they are still collecting 5%, I was told its 13% now. But one thing I know is that people who does the MPD, these are people in the ministries that lived overseas or here are told to used MSI , MSI collects the money and send them overseas. The people here get a receipt. of the full amount . while the people at the receiving end, only takes 88% or 87 %. MSI takes in 12% or 13% of their money as fees.

****

In 1996, after moving to the Washington area from the midwest, we were invited to attend a multi-racial church in the Herndon, Va. The worship style was different from what I was used to and the substance from the pastor,(Brett Fuller) was anything but interesting. I can never even recall him picking up a bible and preaching from it. He normally got his text from websites, print them out, then wave them as if they were the written word. never direct scrpiture. About six months after we begin attending, Jim lafoon and Rice brooks showed up on the scene and I knew something was definately wrong with this picture. They had as much influence over the church as the paster. Soon decisions were being made on the behalf of the chuch, without the church even knowing it. In one instance, land was bought for a new church to be build in South Riding VA, without the church knowing aout it. When people began to talk, Brett told the congregation that he didnt have to ask anyone permission to do anything. He could do what ever he wanted to do, since it was his church and he had the backing of MorningStar. I was very clear to me that Morningstar was running Grace Covenant, that when I found out the history of Grace Covenent, and all its Maranatha ties. Same Maranatha, different name, different year. Still a cult. GG, after reading your post, Im sure we were there at the same time, and I assure you, you are not alone. This church should be investigated by the FBI for fraud.

*****

After attending for over 12 years a former Maranatha Church that renamed itself Hosanna Christian Fellowship,I recently left in a haze of hurt and disillusionment. I experienced alot of the same abusive issues as many of you who have come out of former Maranatha churches/ ministries. The pastor became increasingly power-hungry and authoritative, repeatedly demanding "covenant" loyalty and both privately and publicly rebuking anyone who had any concerns or questions about him or "his" ministry. He verbally assaulted many of us, both privately and publicly, criticizing us, belittling us, and accusing us of things repeatedly that we never did or that were only sins in his twisted perception.

In addition to the abusive authority issues, it has been concretely proven with corroborating evidence and witnesses (more than the Biblically required 2-3) that he has embezzled more than $30,000 over the last few years. He had almost exclusive use of the church checkbook, with his name as the signer. He also evaded taxes by grossly overstating his parsonage usage. Despite the fact that his embezzlement caused our little church to greatly suffer financially, he placed the blame on the congretation, saying numerous times that we were not "bearing enough responsiblity" and that our lack of giving showed the "condition of our hearts".

He also has been arrested for a DUI. He tested positive for prescription painkillers and as part of his probation was forbidden to have any narcotics. He had become addicted to Vicoden and repeatedly obtained the drugs in violation of his probation by keeping the details of his arrest secretive and lying about his addiction in order to obtain Vicoden from church members who were precribed it for legitimate medical and surgical reasons. When he could not get enough of the ddrugs that way, he got it by having a church member steal a precription pad from her doctor ex-husband, and asked her to write illegal prescriptions to obtain the painkillers. She was arrested and consequently disbarred from her law license, as she was caught at a pharmacy picking up the medicine one of the times she wrote the illegal prescription. He had driven her to the pharmacy, but upon seeing from accross the store the police going up to her, he left the scene and left her to get arrested alone. She, of course, never brought his name into the situation, as she was mind-controlled by him to be protective of him.

It also has come to light that he and this same church member had relations that in his own written words "crossed lines" repeatedly.

Additionally, he and this same church member were prayer partners in an intercessory ministry focused on helping pray for people to come out of satanism. It has now been proven that over a 2-3 year period, the church member fabricated over 50 different personas that she would use to contact the pastor via e-mail. These fake persons would claim to be involved deeply in high-level satanism. The pastor would correspond with each "person", leading them to witness to them and counsel them out of satanism. Of course, all the while, the many "satanists" were reality the church member with whom he was praying. The two of them - the pastor and church member - would spend many hours interceding and praying for each "satanist" until each one, via e-mail correspondence, would relate that they had seen the light and were leaving satanism. This was a horribly deceptive and evil thing this church member did, and numerous ones of us in the church repeatedly went to the pastor to tell him that we suspected that these "satanists" were not real people, but were actually the church member pretending to be the satanists. The pastor would refuse to listen. Instead, he would berate us questioning ones for daring to question his discernment and authority and for accusing the church member of something so evil. Well, in February of this year, it was technologically proven that this church member indeed had fabricated each and every one of the "satanists", creating their respective e-mail addresses and maintaining correspondence with the pastor that would create a self-confirming intercessory ministry between her and the pastor, that their many hours of prayer were effectively getting people saved and out of satanism. Myself and another person from our church proved that the IP's of every e-mail address originated from and traced back to the church member's home or work computers. Her work was alerted to her unethical and illegal usage of computers to help perpetrate the falsified e-mails. The computer tech guy at her work was able to, without her knowledge, get screens shots of her keystrokes, concretely showing her fingers typing the fake e-mails. The pastor refused to believe the evidence. Instead, he maintains that he and the church member have been "set up" to make it appear that she fabricated the e-mails. He is too prideful to admit that he was conned and in turn refused to heed others' counsel, thus making him a part of the hoax by his willful blindness.

Yet in spite of all of this - the abuse of authority, the embezzlement, the immoral relationship, the drug addiction and ensuing illegal obtainment of the drugs, and the participation in a hoaxed prayer ministry - he is still in the pulpit. He was asked to step down, which he refused to do. Some of us have left. Some are refusing to see the truth and are continuing to believe his lies. An "apostle" from an international apostolic ministry, with whom our pastor and church have had relationship with, has stepped in at the request of the pastor and a few people in the church. He has now deemed the situation "taken care of", as the pastor gave a generic statement of apology from the pulpit, apologizing for "those he has hurt". He never specifically publicly addressed any of his sins, and has privately either denied or greatly minimized each of his sins. This statement was made 3 months after those of us who left had already left. We have yet to hear an apology from him. I doubt we ever will.

Thanks to Maranatha and other ministries like it who set up a pyramidic hierarchical system where the pastor is above rebuke and correction, he is still in leadership and still abusing his position and those he is under.

The God of Maranatha and other ministries like it, is not my God. My God is loving, humble, and takes care of His sheep. He is full of integrity and honesty. I am thankful that He opened my eyes and pulled me out of the death-filled situation I was in. I only pray those who are left will allow their eyes to be opened as well. It is a sad, grievous situation.

*****

Paul Daniel headed up HP until 2002. He initially wanted to join with Brookes and Co but got cold feet. I believe he did not want to submit to their authority as this was want they wanted as well as the tithing story. However he had an adulterous affair with one of the staff members in our office as well as another young lady. This prompted the existing eldership to appeal to Brookes and Co for help, as he refused to aknowledge his wrongdoing. They then came to Cape Town and encouraged him to "abdicate", he now is living in Durban - I don't know much more then that except that the church membership don't talk about him at all. Quite sad as he started the church and all. Very strong leader. The team now have submitted the church to brookes and co. Its actually very interesting the whole affair. I think Brookes and Co saw it as quite an opportunity to get into africa as the Cape Town church was about 10000 strong at the time.The eldership of Hp also saw MSi as a saviour in the whole mess and I don't believe considered the whole route very carefully.

*****

I was a member of the African arm of the MSI churches. His People Church was an amalgamation of Maranatha (a plant from the States in Johannesburg, South Africa and His People Church of Cape Town. Rev. Paul Daniel was the president of His People International and part of the MSI Apostolic team as well as C. Peter Wagner’s “board” of Apostles. Paul Daniel was senior pastor of His People Cape Town, which grew from 6 members in 1988 to over 8000 in a decade. Various His People churches are strategically situated adjacent to campuses across South Africa and Europe.

After personal research I came to the conclusion that many of these dysfunctions in the church and church leadership were the result of carry-overs in style and ministry doctrine from Maranatha days, character failures of senior leadership, a complete disregard and arrogance with regard to Christian unity and cooperation with other churches on campuses on the high ranking level, an obsession with rank and hierarchy and ladder climbing, authoritarianism, An obsession with destiny, calling and leadership, the absolute authority of senior leadership and a man-pleasing spirit with respect to the senior leadership of MSI, unrivalled professionalism, excellence in ministry taken too far and self-aggrandizement and backslapping of each other on a perplexing scale. Hype of certain favoured ministries such as Champions also was over the top

Rice Broocks, Steve Murrell, Brett Fuller, Jim Lafoon and others visited our church and on each occasion I was deeply unimpressed despite the song and dance around them. In fact, the only one who did make an impression was the surprise and very hushed guest appearance of Bob Weiner in 1997.

*****

I remember when VLI was being enforced in Phil Bonasso church, Nobody wants to take it, no matter how mch advertising they make inside the church, you know how good it was, Even Phil Bonasso's daughter went up and gave testimony about how good it is, nobody wants to take it, just 10 or less people I believe. Finally out of frustration the pastors start announcing that Nobody are allowed to preach the gospel or reach the unsaved until they finish VLI. Then comes another one, NOBODY are allowed to start a bible study until they finished VLI. The Leaders would come hard on the people if you are sharing the gospel. Just literally harrassing them to drop it. As months moved on, People who pass by Leo Lawson class, Leo Lawson teach Inner Healing and deliverance, Leo would have a box inside the classroom sitting on a chair, and ordered the students to cast out demons and send it to the box.

*****

Greg Ball immediete disappearance from the limelight and all we hear from the MSI leaders was he was on sabbatical. A normal leader who would go on into sabbatical would announced it himself. NOT by the MSI leaders. Then we found out later that Paul Daniel, was also announced by the MSI leaders that he was on Sabbatical [note: Paul Daniel confessed having adultery with two young members of his church. The implication here is that Greg Ball fell into sin, or has some problem the MSI leadership does not wish to discuss]. NOW, he does not even exist in the apostolic council. MSI leaders is always counting that in time we would forget the people who are in sabbatical. So if MSI leaders consider a leader in "sin" they would just announced that they are on "sabbatical" ? People here are NOT as guillible as before where whatever the leader say is like FROM GOD. They said it, so I believed it. People now can figure things out that things does not seem right. Whether by scriptures or not. Its In there guts, they knew something is wrong thats called the Promptings of the Holy Spirit .

People do asked questions now. And yet MSI leaders would try to suppress those questions. The year is almost over, So far I have not seen Greg ball stepping back in. I am still wondering if he would even come back in and there is still 2 -3 months to go. Till the sabbatical is over.

MORNING$TAR AND THE PHILIPPINE$

"We are from philippines VICTORY CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP under MORNING STAR INTERNATIONAL, why are we require to pay for 400 pesos/HEAD for attending church convergence? and on the day of registration is 500 pesos/HEAD not including the 200 pesos fee for each child/HEAD. Do you know that salary fo a person here is minimum of 230 pesos per day in provincial rate and if you are bless it is 280 for a manila rate. a friend of mine is attending the CCF and whenever they have convergence they are not require to pay for it whether in ultra or in araneta coliseum. we are a BIG BIG CHURCH. why do we have to give A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR MONEY TO PHIL BONASSO OR RICE BROOKS who is in the U.S.? the rate of the money is $1=57 pesos. Why can't Phil bonasso and Rice Brooks send us the money instead of the other way around. Why doesn't MORNING STAR INTERNATIONAL (or should i call it EVERY NATION CHURCH) AND VICTORY CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP shows any account to where the money was spent? 10 years ago they show us where the money goes why not now? especially during crisis period. CCF is exactly like ours and yet their church office are able to pay for the place. why can't VICTORY CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP afford to pay for the place? we send money to missionaries etc etc. BUT THE BIGGEST QUESTION IS WHY DO WE HAVE TO GIVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY TO PHIL BONASSO AND RICE BROOKS? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE? ARE THEY A TAX COLLECTOR OF VICTORY CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP PHILIPPINES? AMERICAN CHRUCH CAN SUPPORT THEMSELVES YOU KNOW? unlike Philippines, we have to struggle 57x. Remember we earn $5 dollar for 10 hours work a day. while American people earn $5 dollar for 1 hour of work. WHY DOES THEY CALL IT EVERY NATION CHURCH WHEN IT IS actually EVERY NATION SHOULD GIVE TO PHIL BONASSO AND RICE BROOKS's CHURCH. I wish there is a Victory Christian Fellowship Pastor who can explain all these. I support the VCF pastor until now, I heard a person from U.S.A. gave $300 for the pastor here in the Philippines thru Phil Bonasso's Every Nation Church in U.S.A.? but guess what? the pastor here never get to receive the money and the other person who gave question the church in the U.S. and what happen they were ignored. What happen to the money Phil Bonasso? Rice Brook? Philippine pastor here try to make their ends meet to payr for their rent and foods for their family. Phil Bonasso have a big big house in the U.S. where does he gets the money to pay for that? where does he get the money to pay for all his luxurious VACATION? while the Philippine pastors here are suffering? Some are businessmen here and they "prophesied that they should be a full time pastor". why?? so that Phil and rice can control them? ask the congregation to GIVE AND GIVE AND GIVE MONEY TO THEM? WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE CHILDREN OF THE pastor? I know one pastor have to stop his child from schooling because the pastor cannot afford to send all 3 to school but only 2. HOW ABOUT PHIL AND RICE? THEY CAN STILL AFFORD TO GO TO LUXURIOUS VACATIONS, THESE PASTOR IN THE PHILIPPINES ARE EARNING SO LITTLE AND YET THEY ARE REQUIRED TO GIVE TO PHIL AND RICE. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THEY CHARGE FOR THE PASTORS CHILDREN TO ATTEND THEIR OWN SCHOOL VICTORY CHRISTIAN SCHOOL? 40,000-45,000 Per child. can they not take care it for free? it is like they cannot take care of their own. I wish that WE BREAK AWAY FROM "EVERY NATION CHURCH" FORMERLY mORNING STAR INTERNATIONAL AND BE ON OUR OWN VICTORY CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP. OUR CHURCH IS RICH ON OUR OWN. WE DO NOT NEED 'EVERY NATION CHURCH!' "

"According to Every Nation Church (formerly Morning Star International) is that Phillipine church need to send money to USA (Phil Bonasso and Rice Brooks)is because to help support the conference, which I think is REALLY ABSURD because most of FILIPINOS HERE don't go there in California, Texas or any part of the U.S. anyway. the reason for that is either they cannot raise up enough pesos to convert to dollars or the were denied of their visas. also like i said the salary here in the Philippines is 250 pesos to 300 pesos per 10 hours of work a day. that is about $4.50 to $5.00 per day work. how would they have enough money to pay plane ticket. let alone the hotel room plus the foods. Morning Star International (now called Every Nation Church) is collecting money for the WORLD PARTNERS. WE, VICTORY CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP OF THE PHILIPPINES are in the world Partners, I don't think any of us is receiving any single cents "money" either. Everybody raises their own support. So the question is WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ?? WHERE ARE THE MONEY?? do you guys have independent auditors? How come nobody is asking whatever happened to the money? Who is accountable here? How come Phil and Rice Refused to show where did the money went ?? where was it spent? And also How come our pastors here who are having a hard time raising support? It is because they don't know anybody there in the U.S. (Every Nation Church Member) have to give 13%.do you know what 13% means to us? that is a LOT of money for us. MPD, what is MPD? All the filipino pastor have to go thru MPD here, once they raised support and they have to submit that to Morning Star International or MSI and then MSI accounting office. and immeditely MSI will removed 12-13% of that money so the pastor in the philippines don't received the whole amount they will received 12 - 13% less Wasn't the World Partner was supposed to cover that ?? since its the same office,EVERY time the money pass thru MSI they would removed 12 - 13%. It is a lot cheaper to just go thru the banks or any other instituition.Even other churches does not charge excessive adminsitrative fees, Victory Christian Fellowship Philippines does not charge 12 -13% to our provincial churches how come Phil bonasso and Rice Brooks kept charging all these MSI churches? Do you guys charge the provincial churches or to other poorer nation in your churches? 99% of our minister rides public transportation and does not have single car unlike the MSI pastors in the U.S. have LUXURIOUS CARS. our pastor here in the Philippines take public transportation such as jeepneys, buses (these are not airconditionded transportation ok? and imagine the air pollution here). question, do you guys have independent auditors there ? what kind of christians we have here in the Philippines versus what kind of christians that MSI have? we have mighty man of God such as Pastor Jun Escozar, Ross Rosuello (who gave up luxury to preach in the provincial church), We have Ferdie Cabiling, Manny Muleta, William and Psyche, Arnie Sison etc etc.these are pastors who gave up luxury to share gospel in the provice where no one will go. How about Rice Brooks and Phil Bonasso? are the willing to give up their mansions and luxurious car? are they willing go where other do not dare to go? are they Like Jesus at all? even a tinge of Jesus?"

"Your answer is illogical. Because the Victory Christian Fellowship Pastors here in the Philippines has NO access to health insurance at all and Second Most ministries, does not charge fees, our own church in the Philippines does not charge administrative fees to any other Philippine church. The ministers who go thru MSI, does not have a choice to have money taken out. Even the ministers in the Philippines said they don't have a choice. Whether they like it or not, it is going to be taken out. It is not whether there is a choice. Even any banking institutions does not charge this much. They made it VERY VERY HARD for the Filipino pastors of Victory Christian Fellowship to raised support, Filipino pastors are not even allowed to raised among their "so called MSI brethrens". To go to U.S., they don't know anybody, strangers in the land and the only people whom they know are Morning Star International people and to tell them they are NOT allowed to raised support among Morning Star International? Then Morning Star International came here in Philippines Victory Christian Fellowship and asked us filipinos for money for your Morning Star International conference? What the heck is that?"

"ISN’T It amazing that MORNING STAR INTERNATIONAL are still trying to defend the excessive administrative fees. When WE FILIPINOS IN VICTORY CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIOP HAVE 90% MORE PEOPLE on the MISSION FIELDS and MORE WORK LOADS than that of MORNING STAR INTERNATIONAL (Every Nation Church) and WE don't charge anything."


"There are a big difference between the MSI pastor's wives and the pastor's wives of victory christian fellowship. The MSI pastor's wives requires the singles in the church to do their house chores while the pastor's wives of victory christian fellowship will sacrifice their time or go out of their way to help people who are members of their church who are in need of help. 90% of Victory Christian Fellowship Philippines memebers and pastors, do not have luxurious car let alone a regular car but they voluntarily help one another. My question is when will Morning Star International (Every Nation Church) Willingly go out of their way to help people who are in need? are they willing to share gospel to the street people or are they still choosing to share gospel to the filthy rich people so that when they accept Christ as their Savior the next thing they will do is MANIPULATE PEOPLE DOLLARS? REMEMBER JESUS CHRIST SHARE THE GOSPEL TO ALL THE PEOPLE, HE DOES NOT CARE WHETHER YOU ARE RICH OR POOR."

Selected comments from the FactNet forum

RICE BROOCKS, FAME, AND MONEY:

"This is an experience that I witnessed a few months ago: I attended a reception for participants involved in a fundraising effort for the Nashville-based Youth Life Learning Center. At the end of the evening, I witnessed a conversation that deeply saddened me and confirmed to me that there is something extremely unhealthy in the core of MSI. The fundraising event involved participating in a celebrity golf tournament. Golf teams were required to raise individual money for donations to the Youth Life Learning Center. Teams competed against one another. But once the team reached its collective goal of $4,500, they were given the chance to pick the celebrity to join their team for the tournament. The reception was intended to be a kick-off/pep rally for the golf players and fundraising participants. The conversation that I witnessed was one of the pastors sharing with the head committee member that a golf participant had just presented this pastor with a check for $4,500. The participant wrote out the check personally because she wanted "first-pick" for the celebrity. The "celebrity" that she picked was Rice Broocks. The pastor then shared with the commitee head that the reason why the lady wanted to be certain that she could attain Rice as her teammate... Her and her husband had just befriended a "new Christian" that they wanted to provide a special introduction to Rice himself. You see... this "new Christian" was a man in his 40s...who happened to be a multi-millionare. The couple was adamant that they needed to connect Rice with this multi-millionare baby Christian. As they were certain this was a "divine appointment" and they were quite intent that they connect this man to Rice so that he would soon grab hold of his "destiny". This conversation deeply grieved my spirit. A question that the Holy Spirit presented to me once I had overheard their conversation was would a man of similiar age and similar path in his relationship to God. Yet he was making a mere $20K/year - would he be afforded the same opportunity for a personal introduction to Rice Broocks????"



RICE BROOCKS AND THE FARMER:

I have been recalling a sermon over the recent weeks that now seriously grieves my spirit. A few years ago, Pastor Rick Shelton of the Life Christian Church in St. Louis came to our church to be a guest speaker. Rick just joined his church to the MSI family. And there was definitely a honeymoon between him and Rice. Anyway, Rick Shelton shared with us the testimony of his experiences growing his church over the years. It came to a point where his church was in need of buying land to build. There was a parcel of land that Rick really wanted. However, this land was landlocked by a neighboring farmer. Meaning there was no legal way that the purchaser of this land could have access to the main road. The farmer was from the old school...meaning he really wasn't embracing the growth in his area. Rick Shelton went to this parcel of land frequently to visit it, walk around it, etc. I think maybe he was praying over the land - that God would bless his church with this property. During several of the visits, Rick Shelton and the farmer had some words. One "fateful" afternoon, Rick was walking around this land and claiming this land as his. The farmer popped out and said to Rick, "you will get this land over my dead body." Rick, being the seasoned storyteller, stopped in the middle of his "sermon" and looked out into the congregation with a cat-that-ate-the-canary grin. Rick proceeded to BOAST that he responded to the farmer that "if it has to be that way - then so be it." Rick then shared that the very afternoon that the two exchanged those words, the farmer dropped dead of a heart attack. AGAIN EXCEEDINGLY IN BOASTFUL BLISS, Rick ended his sermon saying that no man will come between what God has ordained for His people. When I was a witness to this sermon, I was still brainwashed. However, my heart sank after receiving this "testimony" from a pastor. My thoughts were, "MY GOD! Has this man no mercy or compassion for this farmer? Did he (Rick Shelton) even know or even care if this farmer was saved?" My dad was a farmer, so this "sermon" really hit home for me. After that sermon, I really didn't have much respect for him. Yet our congregation, Rice, and the rest of the leaders just applauded him with such faith, fervor and tremendous testimony. Brothers and sisters, THESE are the men that you are submitting your life, your heart, your family/marriage to. Now that I have stepped away, I can see things more clearly as I have been "deconstructing" all of the years of mind-numbing teachings and pursuits. And I am even more grieved now as I recount this story. If this was a "true story". A so-called leader chose land over another man's soul. What a true shame Jesus' heart and purpose??"


From the FactNet forum

HOW PHIL BONASSO STOLE LLOYD MANAMTAM'S CHURCH:

Phil took Lloyd's campus leaders to lunch and told them of the vision to blend Sam's and Lloyd's City Gate Church, get this----without Lloyd's knowledge. Lloyd was told that the churches would have to merge and that he would be able to be trained more to be a leader in this church and it would take a year of training. Then he could become a leader in the NEW church. I can't remember if they wanted him to get a regular job or what during that year. I think they want to cause leaders to completely conform to the top leaders ways of thinking and doing things. I don't know why Lloyd needed to change. Lloyd didn't fit the image MSI ( now Every Nation Ministries) wanted and appproved of(handsome, perfect looking and acting, performing and teaching all the ways of MSI.) After a short couple of weeks, Phil and Tony Fetchel (who is trained by Phil) managed to turn the hearts of Lloyd's congregation, except for a faithful 30, away from Lloyd and actually to the point of judgement, where they thought that Lloyd was in rebellion and sin. This was a true tragedy. Also, Lloyd's brother was so into manpleasing, that after the incident of Lloyd's rejection, he (the leader of AC & E) called Lloyd by another name when he was on the phone in front of MSI leaders. This also hurt Lloyd greatly. Even his own brother turned on him, and showed allegiance to MSI. Al Manamtam was actually in fear of losing his position and provision for his own family if he spoke out against any of the practices in MSI. I think it is so sad that two men control so much (Phil and Rice) that great people like Al have to be afraid of not pleasing them or offending them to the point of being fired by them, as the case with Tom. There are two kind of leaders in MSI or Every Nation--- the religious and controlling or the man-pleasing. The fruits can be subtle depending on the church or the personality of the individual. But everyone is affected.

From the FactNet forum

GOD SQUAD -
Joe Gibbs, the Washington Redskiks, Mark Brunell, Champions for Christ, etc


Washington City Paper
February 20th, 2004
By Dave McKenna

On Feb. 5, Joe Gibbs was a featured guest at the National Prayer Breakfast MC'd by President Bush. Then, for this year's Daytona 500, Gibbs allowed his stock car to be used as a billboard for The Passion of the Christ, the new Mel Gibson film that shows the crucifixion in nails-through-skin detail. And now Gibbs is running himself ragged to bring in the aging Mark Brunell as the future quarterback for the Redskins.

It doesn't take Matlock to process these clues. The Redskins have gone God Squad.

Gibbs wasn't shy about his religious leanings during his first stint as coach. But in the area of building a team in His image, recent behavior suggests Gibbs II has, in jock parlance, turned it up a notch.

The coach has long liked his quarterbacks devout. Mark Rypien, Jay Schroeder, and Jeff Rutledge are among Gibbs' former QBs who went public with their faith. But the guy now hailed as the Redskins' likely signal caller can out-God all of 'em. Brunell brought so much spirituality to the workplace in Jacksonville that it got him in trouble.

Jaguars management had to ask Brunell to stop slipping announcements for the Wednesday-night Bible study he organized at the local Marriott into teammates' lockers.

"I'm for separation of church and state, and I'm for separation of church and football," Jaguars tackle John Jurkovic said after the flier episode. Brunell apologized and agreed to stop his locker-room proselytizing.

But the controversies didn't end there. Brunell's marketing representative, Greg Feste, had ties to a Texas-based Christian group, Champions for Christ (CFC), and Feste used his connections to the Jacksonville quarterback and CFC to convince dozens of NFL players to hire him as their agent. When Chicago Bears running back Curtis Enis dumped agent Vann McElroy and signed with Feste, other NFL player reps decried Feste's tactics and accused him of using the Lord to bring players into his flock.

Brunell's pastor, Greg Ball, was the founder of CFC. A New York Times report in 1998 said that two teams—Jacksonville and the Bears—had asked the NFL to investigate Ball, Feste, and CFC's tactics. Nothing public came of the NFL's investigation, though Enis dropped Feste as an agent and severed ties with CFC, attributing those decisions to the controversy surrounding the group. Feste now owns the Austin Wranglers, an Arena Football League team.

The Redskins roster probably could use a dose of godliness. Look at the bad actors brought in last midseason, when Dan Snyder was in charge of personnel: Kenyatta Jones is now facing charges related to allegedly pouring boiling water on a man described as his "personal assistant." Darrell Russell was cut by the Oakland Raiders after violating the league's substance-abuse policy and allegedly videotaping his friends having sex with an incapacitated woman.

There are faithful players available for Gibbs to go after. The Skins need a whole new defensive line. Reggie "Minister of Defense" White is a little long in the tooth, though he might want to come back if God tells him to get his sacks record back from Bruce Smith.

Gibbs could also go for the New York Giants' Mike Barrow without losing much faith. The linebacker, an active member of the Christian group Athletes in Action, backed out of participation in a charity basketball game at a New Jersey high school last year when officials from the school district said Barrow's plan to deliver a religious speech at halftime violated a law prohibiting the use of school facilities for such purposes.

Shaun Alexander, a Seahawk who ran over the Redskins last season, is active with the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and could fill Gibbs' need for a big back to run 30 Gut about 30 times a game. Alexander likes to tell the story of finding religion in college, while searching through the Bible for "something with 37 because that was my football number." And Psalm 37 includes the verse "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart."

The Skins aren't looking for a wideout, but nobody wears his faith on his sleeve more than journeyman Todd Doxzon. When he played for the Los Angeles Extreme of the XFL, he wore "Col. 3:17" on the back of his jersey in the "He Hate Me" slot. Doxzon explained that it referenced a Bible passage that reads: "Whatever you do in word or deed you do unto the Lord, giving thanks to God the Father." Doxzon is now with the Carolina Cobras of the Arena Football League.

Gibbs can also make nonroster moves to show his devotion. If, for example, Gibbs wants to move training camp away from Ashburn, Va., there are godly sites that could house the reborn Skins—Frostburg, Md., for example, where the team trained under Norv Turner. The town is also home to a group calling itself God's Ark of Safety Ministries, which has been rebuilding Noah's Ark since April 1976. Every visitor to the town has to pass billboards announcing that project, which, to be honest, hasn't shown a whole lot of progress in the last several years. Gibbs might need some help from above to get Frostburg to take the team back, however. Snyder broke the Redskins contract with the city four years ago so he could charge $10 admission and $10 parking to practice sessions at Redskin Park. And townsfolk in Frostburg may not be ready to turn the other cheek just yet.

But that leaves the original Redskin Park in Herndon, Va., as an option. George Allen opened that site by Dulles airport in 1971, making the Redskins the first NFL team to have its own regular-season practice facility. The Redskins moved from Herndon to their current Ashburn address in the summer of 1992, just after a final ceremony in which players and coaches were given their third and last Super Bowl rings under Gibbs. The team has been in decline ever since. And maybe the grounds are hallowed: D.C. United took over Redskin Park after the football team left and quickly won two MLS championships. D.C. United hasn't won anything since abandoning Herndon and using the auxiliary fields at RFK Stadium for workouts. If he wants to move back, Gibbs will have no problem negotiating with the property's new owner and tenant: Word of Grace Fellowship. That's a church.

I have just recently quit a Morning Star Church. I was a top lay leader in a Morning Star Church for several years, and then was a top level Pastor in a Morning Star Church. Through those experiences, I was exposed to the activities of the self-appointed "Apostolic Team." This movement needs to be disbanded. It's time for a public expose' of these guys - the spiritual abuse needs to stop. My story should assist in bringing things to a halt.

I came across this forum and this thread purely by accident....

Jim Lafoon is coming to our church Sunday (tomorrow). I was doing a google search to see what information was out there about him. This thread came up in my search.

Yes, our church is an "EN" church. We are only 5 years old, joined EN at the end of our 1st year. We have grown from 17 to over 3,000 in attendance. Both my husband and I have done 1st and 2nd year VLI (ENLI). The reason we took it was for educational purposes. We felt we really lacked the necessary information needed to be in ministry.

I found ENLI very informative, but too much information in a short period of time. I had contacted the office in Nashville to see if I could get copies of the videos and they said no. You would think spending as much as we did for this series of classes that we would get something more than just the books. The books are great, but so much more was shared in the videos.

Now, as far as being connected to EN. I am still sorting that out. I am sure there are many good things they do, but I do see some of the problems in their leadership and authority issues.

Steve Murrell came and spoke at our church during a Leadership conference. I was not too impressed. Jim Lafoon has come and shared words of knowledge which are so vague they really could pertain to anyone. He has also given prophecies that have not come to pass or were very far from the truth.

Thanks for the date-line on MSI. I knew that Ray McCollum was in Austin but really never knew what happen to Greg Ball. I also didn't know Paul Barker has gone to Missouri.

I will continue at my church, but with discernment for truth.

Isn't it odd that Greg Ball is still listed as the senior pastor of the Morning Star Christian Church of Austin?

[www.intra-focus.com]

Hi SLK,

Just curious... are you from the Mandeville church? Wondering b/c I'm familiar w/the Louisiana MSI churches and sounded like that's what you might be describing.

I'm not sure that the Austin church website is the "official" website anymore. I know there's one on the web that looked like a draft website but didn't appear to ever have been taken offline. But if you go to Every Nation's/Morning Star International's online directory it clearly lists Ray McCollum as the pastor of the Austin church and Brett Fuller as the head of Champions for Christ: www.everynation.org, go to Churches and it allows you to search by church or state, or you can just list all their North American churches or corporate offices if you want. Also, Pastor Ray's website lists him as the Austin pastor: www.pastorray.com Prior to that he was in the St. Louis church for a short while, where Paul Barker is now (I believe that Paul Barker is originally from Missouri--he came in through Maranatha's old Southeast Missouri State chapter).

As you may know, Ray McCollum originally started Bethel World Outreach Center/MSI Nashville (previously known as Bethel Chapel) in 1983. However, sometime between 3/03 and 3/04 he was taken off that church's board of directors, according to their corporate paperwork. Bethel's board of directors are now all former Maranatha pastors/leaders.

Back to Greg Ball... I believe that officially, according to Morning Star International, Greg Ball is on "sabbatical," based on an email that a friend of mine received when she asked them about it a few months back. However, he started his own non-affiliated ministry in late November, 2004 (I think it's called Bridge International Ministries or something like that). He was removed from his positions with Champions for Christ and the Austin church in May 2004, according to paperwork filed with the Texas Secretary of State. Also, in early November 2004 that church filed a new fictitious name w/the Texas SOS: "Christ Community Church." Unsure if that is what's going to be the Austin church's new name or if that's for a new church plant.

I don't know if you've been over to the FACTNet board yet, but there is what was a very active discussion thread about Maranatha/Morning Star/Every Nation at www.factnet.org/discus

blessings,
ulyankee

ulyankee@yahoo.com