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mxkitty

We may not have direct evidence that the Horn/Gans or any other Gurdjieff group was studied or sponsored by any government intelligence agency, but it is fallacious to discard this possibility completely. It should be researched further and questioned. Someone in the know might come forward in the interim.


I know of at least one Gurdjieff/Subud group that is connected to an area Satanic group. Cults recruit members from other cults. This phenomenon is well documented.

And this is relevant to the Gans/Horn Klein group because----?

It can't be disproved that the Horn/Gans/Klein group are NOT affiliated with a government agency, therefore it is fallacious to assume they aren't? (I think the fallacy's in your court).
And after operating for 40+ years not one person has come forward with even a shred of evidence or proof (other than some gov't agencies possibly working in CA) to even suggest this possibility-- what interim are we waiting for?

This group is still operating in the Boston area (as far as I know) in New York and possibly in Copenhagen-- causing real damage to people's lives and families. (see www.esotericfreedom.com)

To tack the secret intelligence issue onto this thread only obfuscates and discredits the attempt to educate people about this group and cults in general.

Again, if you want to discuss the Horn/Gans/Klein group, or reopen the thread for discussion, fine. But don't throw this stuff into the mix and claim that it's relevant-- it just seems an excuse for people to air their own particular conspiracy theories.

I speak not of the Gans/Horn/Klein groups.

First of all, Alex Horn is dead. Therefore he is not part of any group.

Secondly, other Gurdjieff groups in the Bay Area in the 1970s existed and continue to exist.

Thirdly, if you were a member of one or more of these groups, ensure that you are not mind controlled yet. It may explain your attitude. Direct your anger not at member who are here TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE LIKE YOU RECOVER FROM YOUR RAMPANT ANGER AT BEING BETRAYED BY GROUP LEADERS.

Members of groups I have helped to expose spake to me likewise.

mxkitty:

Let's get this straight.

No one is criticizing you regarding exposing cult groups.

It's the conspiracy theories that are the focus of criticism.

They have no place here, are nonsensical and not appreciated.

Stick to the topic, which is "Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies" and not the CIA and imagined government or satanic plots.

Why am I lambasted, and not user "cochineal", who re-opened the the topic of mind-control and Gurdjieff cults?

Thank you moderator.

Just to clarify:

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mxkitty
I speak not of the Gans/Horn/Klein groups.

Cochineal spoke of and allegedly "reopened" the Gans/Horn discussion, to whit:

COCHINEAL: "I would like to reopen the question about Sharon Gans and/or Alex Horn (or any of their followers) being involved in mind control experiements. A friend recently sent me a link to a very interesting website...
Please read. It is very interesting. I always thought of Sharon as playing the Angela Lansbury role in the Manchurian Candidate but this suggests that she actually might have played (and still be playing) the role of the Laurence Harvey character Raymond Shaw."

... and then went on to cut & paste documents and links from the website none of which had anything to do with this group. I found it irrelevant,
misleading, and somewhat nutty in this context and said so:

SAR: "Don't see any relevance in any of this that pertains to the Gans/Horn/Klein group. The mechanics of the group is fairly easy to explain within the cult dynamics paradigm offered by Sanger, Hassan and many others, as well as studies in interpersonal behavior in small groups. Gans a CIA subject of mind control-- she gets the phone call and in some kind of post-hypnotic state goes on to subjugate her "students"? If you want to re-open the subject why start with whacky conspiracy theories? It's not that grand or mysterious--Sounds like an imaginative/paranoid delusion worthy of Her Nibs."[Meaning Sharon Gans].

You responded with a post about Nazis, Jim Jones, CIA, Michael Aquino and satanic groups with one paragraph alluding to the supposed relevant topic:

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mxkitty
We may not have direct evidence that the Horn/Gans or any other Gurdjieff group was studied or sponsored by any government intelligence agency, but it is fallacious to discard this possibility completely. It should be researched further and questioned. Someone in the know might come forward in the interim.

So yes, you did speak of the Horn/Gans group, however briefly and as part of this discussion and (as I stated) irrelevantly. And I said so in my response.

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mxkitty
First of all, Alex Horn is dead. Therefore he is not part of any group.

Horn founded the group, and ran it (with Gans from sometime in the 70s) for about 20+ years. His methodology and influence has marked the group from its inception to the present-- so I still use his name when discussing it.

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mxkitty
Secondly, other Gurdjieff groups in the Bay Area in the 1970s existed and continue to exist.

Okay-- but Cochineal supposedly reopened the discussion about THIS one.

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mxkitty
Thirdly, if you were a member of one or more of these groups, ensure that you are not mind controlled yet. It may explain your attitude. Direct your anger not at member who are here TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE LIKE YOU RECOVER FROM YOUR RAMPANT ANGER AT BEING BETRAYED BY GROUP LEADERS.

Members of groups I have helped to expose spake to me likewise.


I was a member of the Gans/Horn/Klein group in SF & Boston.

Two days ago I bought a brand of shampoo & deodorant that I'm not sure I needed-- so you may be right about the mind control.

My attitude and "rampant anger" (more like annoyance) stems from

1) The fact that the issue of mind control and cults is generally misunderstood, if not outright disbelieved, often by intelligent people (a friend of mine, a developmental psychologist thinks its nonsense). Issues like Satanic Cults, CIA experiments, Drugs, Black Ops, et al, do not clarify the matter, and add a lack of credibility to those who try to educate and enlighten others about the psychodynamics of malignant cults.

2) People (myself included) who want to find more and new information about this particular group, may feel resentful when someone's ideological agenda is pushed under the false pretext of discussion or providing new data. And the aforementioned lack of credibility may turn them off completely (especially if they're new to all of this).

I spake to you thus because I'd like to nip this crap in the bud.

For people interested in reliable information on the Horn/Gans/Klein etc. group you can get info at:
[www.esotericfreedom.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.freedomofmind.com]

wow-- anybody who has had direct and lengthy exposure to gans and her minions-- again it is gans and her minions-- looks at this government manchurian candidate stuff for what it surely is: the misguided assumptions of someone on the outside looking in but who deeply needs answers. mx kitty-- as i recall from your prior posts, you were only an infant when red mountain ranch was going on, and i respect and appreciate the struggles you must be going through to try to make sense of your history.

but let me be absolutely frank with you, with the hope that what follows assuages some of your more severe conclusions, if indeed they are conclusions: sharon gans does not possess the intellectual apparatus to be part of any kind of government anything. she is only capable of setting up her own rules, changing them whenever it is convenient so as to retain power, and that is about it. and alex horn was a charismatic but paranoid and frightened lunatic who hitched his wagon to a body of ideas that allowed him to use his considerable charisma to take advantage of hippie-dippies by the dozens. perhaps your parents were two of these hippie-dippies, and if so, perhaps you could find out from them what went on, and even go so far as to tell others here what you found out. i am sure three are plenty who are interested.

so anyway, what sharon does have at her disposal are long-time assistants who actually pre-dated her personal involvement with and marriage to alex horn, all of whom became alex horn's psychic slaves while at red mountain. when alex was ousted much later in nyc, these psychic slaves took the lessons they learned from their master and in a kind of zombie-like surrender continued to carry out sharon gans's agenda, with plenty of alex horn's special brand of psychological and physical violence, though some of the physical violence was later mutated into retreats and work weekends where the violence took the form of poor forms of nourishment and sleep deprivation. this is mainly how gans was able to create valuable properties over the years and maintain control over her victims.

if you have any questions or issues that you would like to have addressed, i am available through this valuable website and perhaps email (if you are permitted to do so.

i wish for you to be at peace.

You have a right to your opinions about what is "relevant" and what is not.

However, attacking others on boards is indicative of your damage, not my research.

This thread was of particular interest to me--partly because my uncle wrote The Manchurian Candidate. I was in the Gans group for 9 years from '89 to '98 and have to agree with cyber7. Sharon Gans did not play well with others, and, as Cyber7 said is only able to follow her own (protean) rules.

On a separate note, I am always interested in hearing from erstwhile classmates. I am posting under my actual name, so if anyone remembers me, I'd enjoying hearing from you.

Mr Condon, I was never involved with Gans.

However, I find it interesting that her methods of recruitment resemble those used by espionage agencies. James Webb, in his biography of Gurdjieff, The Harmonious Circle, makes a very strong case that Gurdjieff was a spy in the Imperial Russian secret service, an occupation that enabled him to travel as extensively as he did.

Webb had high society background, and he had access to old files in the British intelligence agencies. He learned that the British authorities denied a visa to G when he wanted to live in the UK, because they had misgivings about his prior activities spying for the Imperial Russian government in British India and Tibet.

My hunch is that Webb was right and that it was during his time as a Tsarist agent, that Gurdjieff learned what it was like to be treated as an object (spies are used and disposed of by thier bosses), he would have learned to live a secret life, and would have learned to identify and play on other peoples weaknesses so as to recruit them and milk them for information.

My hunch is that Gurdjieff very much liked being a spy. And he may have had an incentive to use his charisma and his messy bundle of pseudo spiritual teachings as a way to create a society where he could function as the all powerful spymaster and move people around like chess pieces.

It would have been much more fun for Gurdy to re-enact the role of spymaster, ringmaster of a human circus---much more satisfying than being just another disoriented White Russian refugee, driving a taxi cab in Paris.

My guess is that people who are pre-formatted by certain kinds of early life experience find secrecy, tension and intrigue to be for them, a normal way to live. Some grow up in secret ridden families and then, as adults, gravitate into jobs, relationships and seekers groups that re-enact the intrigue and secrecy of thier childhood.

I call it preformatting.

So I dont think its a conspiracy on the part of a the US government. My hunch is that people who are wounded in a particular way by secrecy in their families, are in the grip of unconscious trauma and act these dynamics out, and some gravitate to stuff like the Gans group.

My take is the only think Gurdy taught was how to behave like a paranoid subject of the Russian czar and how to function as a spy in a hostile landscape where all others are objects--or as Gurdy would put it, machines.

If you're the spy--you think youre the only one who is awake and knows what is going on--the people you use are just objects.

That is the only thing Gurdjieff could teach--how to live the way he did.

Which was pretty damned bleak.

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corboy
Mr Condon, I was never involved with Gans.

However, I find it interesting that her methods of recruitment resemble those used by espionage agencies. James Webb, in his biography of Gurdjieff, The Harmonious Circle, makes a very strong case that Gurdjieff was a spy in the Imperial Russian secret service, an occupation that enabled him to travel as extensively as he did.

To your knowledge, what WAS Gans' and Horn's/ Klein's recruitment method? Do you even know?

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corboy
My hunch is that people who are wounded in a particular way by secrecy in their families, are in the grip of unconscious trauma and act these dynamics out, and some gravitate to stuff like the Gans group.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of reasons of why people join cults-- some of them because of "wounds" as many by strengths and weaknesses.

Is this anti-cult thing some kind of hobby of yours, or just some stray academic interest? Do you have any personal stake in any of this? Based on my experience, I find everything you have written about this particular group to be so far off the mark and irrelevant as to be of absolutely no use and quite misleading.