I'd be interested in hearing from any ex-TM'ers about their thoughts on 'what did it all mean'? I myself was 'initiated' in 1980, zoomed off to be a full time student at MIU in 1980, and got the sidhis the very next year. Rather a meteoric rise to 'bliss bunnyness'! Of course being 'in the environment' was supposed to cushion me from the worst effects of unstressing. It may have! But I saw a lot of freak outs, fractured humans and complete 'stressbags' in my dorm and in the pods, and had a period in there where I couldn't even dress myself...(It was too big a choice! There was no 'script' for what to put on in the morning!).

After a few years of full immersion, still hanging on the fringe by being a townie doing TSR in the domes (town super radiance!) (ohmigosh the JARGON!) I was 'lucky' enough to be interested in some of the frowned upon alternative thinking modalities that were also hovering on the fringe.

Sneaking off to nearby towns to listen to ''rival" teachings! Eating BURGERS, yes, COW FLESH, at Buckboard Annies when no one was looking, and seeing more and more people sink into such extremes of poverty and ill-health. Really, how pastey can you get and not be a walking cadaver?

I chanced to read or hear something about all those seratonin levels while meditating. How it was ADDICTIVE. What? WHOA NELLY! My pet cult practice could be a mere addiction to raised seratonin levels?

Well, I"m nothing if not stubborn so I decided to see if I WAS addicted by simply quitting cold turkey. And thus began my own liberation...

But what did it all mean? At one point I had it verified that I was in full CC. Heady stuff! I could intuit anything that needing intuitive intuiting! I could channel (frowned upon by the movement but tacitly ignored as it was possibly a side-effect of the sidhis and positive evolution) (as long as it wasnt openly done or talked about) (typical of all movement policy!), I was flying high and experiencing round the clock bliss and was fully awake even while sleeping...hmmmm.

And yet I was unable to 'manifest' the things we were promised we could manifest. Like money. Like a job. "support of nature" which was supposed to be achieved spontaenously and without effort was totally missing in me and in every person I saw in Fairfield except the wealthy who came there with their wealth intact and were treated very special, indeed.

Me, and everyone I knew, couldn't manifest our way out of a paper bag. Support of nature manifested itself in 'support of bra strap with safety pin' because the laws of nature weren't affording me the money to buy a new one...

What did it all mean? Were we just dupes or pawns in one man's joyride through life? Did Mahesh Yogi decide he was too cold in his cave one day, and decide that he would live HIS life to the fullest by never going without warm blankets, silk robes and incense in warm palaces, no matter who he had to ruin or exploit on his way?

What if the whole thing was simply about a man who wanted a lifetime supply of roses to shred?

Tell me what you think, please!

Hi, Rose, I saw your name at another TM post. Did it mean anything, TM? There are pros and cons. What there aren't are systematic ways of quantifying and qualifying these experiences.

On the one hand, TM as it is now, is like an industrial strength vacuum into your bank account. You start TM, you get Hoovered. Plain and simple. Some rationalize this to the extent they can never see what is going on; others do not. I think there's a lot of meaning in seeing what's going on.

Prior to the Beatles dumping him, TM was just sort of nice, homey, pleasant and social. Mahesh changed everything in the early 70's directly after he got dumped royally. For me, that tells me more about Mahesh than about the experiences of TM.

I do not think Mahesh's [i:4a9ee11d7e]explanations[/i:4a9ee11d7e] for what happens in/during TM are meaningful and hence people can misunderstand, misinterpret and just generally go completely off the rails with TM. Definitely, Mahesh's attempts to [i:4a9ee11d7e]explain[/i:4a9ee11d7e] are intended to keep you hooked. You get just that modicum of the mystical so that you can justify your own lack of understanding and keep at it so that [i:4a9ee11d7e]real[/i:4a9ee11d7e] understanding will come. It is always promised with the next great, for sure, technique.

For me, meaning comes when you begin to look inward. That is real meaning for you. Mahesh, however, keeps all meaning focused on himself. TM is the religion of serving Mahesh. Yet, I cannot imagine any non-fatal experience without positive meaning and sorting out the chaff from the grain (which I think is something King James said), you find real and valuable meaning. It is all too often simply too easy to remain focused on what was negative. Mahesh, of course, encourages that. So YOU are always at fault because YOU did not follow some instruction he so benevolently gave (rev up the industrial strength vacuum so you can get his benevolence).

However, when you simply drop the negative, you might find you have made some positive growth despite whatever blinders Mahesh convinced you to wear.

M

Thanks! That is a well-thought out response to my query, and I enjoyed reading it.

I take your point about dropping the negative and looking for the positive, and I must say that I truly am quite well and whole these days...so I don't like the emphasis on negativity, either, however!!! I don't like the mindless 'positivity-babble' that was part of the program in TM. "Never shall we entertain negativity...never shall we denounce anyone"

That sounds SO PRETTY but actually it is a very convenient way to turn your back on [u:cfcb40dcd0]truth[/u:cfcb40dcd0] by taking any ugly situation, turning off your reason, your instincts, and your survival mechanisms, and by promoting a belief that anything 'negative' is 'just some roughness and we will ignore it and buy another technique', the cult of Maharishi is allowed to continue to control, manipulate, and empty the pockets of the 'sweet truth seekers'. LIfe is full of positive and negative, so to me the whole idea of simply ignoring the negativity is like ignoring half of creation.

So I have a policy to Entertain Negativity and Cuss like a Sailor anytime I feel the urge. It helps me reaffirm that nobody has made a bliss-ninny clone out of me! Not anymore!

[i:f44284b94b]"Never shall we entertain negativity...never shall we denounce anyone" [/i:f44284b94b]

Rose, I think you re on the right track. You might not know, but nobody ever matched Mahesh's negativity when he encountered someone or something in his way. Some really rich supporters, after many years ane tonnes of $, dumped him like a garbage. He called them demons. A couple of times when I was around him he really roughed up some of the staff for performance less than 99.99% -- A friend of mine thought he was really funny because he had written in the Gita commentary that we must not cavel. Well, she said, nobody cavels like he does (meaning Mahesh, of course). This got me to watching. She was right on the money with that one!

I worked in hospital for something like 30 years before retiring. I always told people they could come bitch to me about anything, because it's necessary to know you are being listened to and necessary to dump. But I also encouraged people not to dump on one another. -- I am a great fan of colourful self-expression (sailors aren't as good at it as you might imagine); but we have to be careful, because it can be hurtful. Mahesh could be massively hurtful, it was one of his manipulation devices ... we all performed better for fear of getting one of his reaming outs.

People performed for Mahesh for his well-being and the well-being of his massively arrogant, narcissistic and manipulative ego. He discovered or stole a good thing, the basics of TM and used it for self-promotion and, as I may have noted elsewhere, as a sort of self-salving way of showing Guru Dev he was better and more deserving than he felt he had gotten from Guru Dev.

TM and the TMO (TM Organization) are inseparable and Mahesh is inseparable from them. Yet, once you can get the "outsider's" perspective, there is something quite fascinating to watch. A friend on one of the TM discussion forums many years ago said it was like watching a train wreck. Horrible, but you were simply unable to look away.

Point taken about the hurtfullness of free expression. I am very much enjoying your take on what you know or have seen. Even while a student at MIU I would listen with perked ears to some of the tales I heard about Mahesh's legendary temper and force of will.

There were several disgruntled guys around who had been at the top and seen and experienced some things. Looking back I wish I had probed further...but then it was simply taboo. You just did NOT "out" yourself in that way, certainly not if you wanted to steer clear of the Capital Nazi's who controlled your chances of recieving further techniques.

So much of 'not entertaining negativity' had more to do with a fear-based imposed reality than an actual willingness and sweetness of spirit and temper. Biting your tongue and pretending NOT to be stressed out is not the same thing as genuinely understanding and embracing a bad situation.

And the face of the movement and the underbelly are two different animals indeed. On the one hand, doctrine about how supportive and loving the community is...and on the other. Well, as an example, I remember on my sidhi course one of the girls mentioned to the sidhi administraters that she felt a little bit sad and depressed after experiencing 'happiness'. Rather than try to find out what that meant for her, she was instantly thrown off the course and given NO refund, NO recourse, and only told that she could continue the sidhi's at some later date, at the whim of the administrators. Of course it was all done with gentle tones, "It is best that you go on the resting program and discontinue taking the sidhis until this roughness is smoothed out."

I posted somewhere else about how 'happiness' had affected me, and if I had chosen to speak up about it, that would have been my fate, too. $5000 dollars poorer and not a penny of what I'd paid for.

I often wonder about that girl. She was not the least unstable, but suddenly she had this 'stigma'. Everyone was wary of her, and I spoke with her a year later and she never did get the rest of the sidhis. They just kept putting her off, time after time. I sincerely hope she realized it doesn't matter a bit, or if it had been her desire, then that she got someone to give them to her!

But that little pinch of control taught us all the lesson to keep our mouths shut no matter WHAT we were experiencing. Not exactly supportive! Yikes!

May I ask, are you the same "Martin" who posted more than a year ago and started many of these threads? Or different Martin? Thanks! Rose

Hi, Rose, same Martin, I just couldn't log in any more, so had to set up again. I hadn't had an e-mail for a while and sort of lost track and then had a note from Toni saying someone had asked me a question! Toni says hi and will get to your question, but is +++++ busy right now.

Your use of "Nazi" is perfectly correct. Mahesh liked Hitler and especially liked/likes his strutting do-as-told Germans. The fragile nature of the TMO, its terror when everything isn't perfect as desired is one example of how misguided and deluded Mahesh and all he has done is.

I think Mahesh likes the idea of timid yes-persons paying money with himself controlling a few not so deluded doer-types who can accomplish everything as he does nothing (ever notice how that old saw operates [i:da02bda84f]do nothing, accomplish everything[/i:da02bda84f]?). Trouble is, those semi-zombies still able to fetch and carry at his every whim tend to abandon him. They need constant replacing whilst the timid masses, suitably cowed by his wrath and fear of dismissal just pay and pay and pay.

It's really sickening from this perspective. I do suspect that those timid sheep (if that isn't too redundant) would simply find someone else to operate their lives were it not for Mahesh, but it certainly demonstrates His Wholly Weaselness's contempt for others and his paucity of actual spiritual leadership.

Before MUM/MIU and World Plan Centres, TM was mch better in terms of people actually benefitting directly from TM. Now people only directly benefit the TMO.

Still, people will grow and develop in spite of Mahesh's fascism and intent to drain others of their resources. It is always so.

hmmm. This is good dialogueing, in my opinion. I'm really grateful and tickled by all your insights. Are you a Brit, by chance? I've noticed some slang that is definitely not 'American English'.

Mostly I am just glad to finally AT LAST find others who are ex-Tm'ers and who have been there, done that. I still have many pieces of the puzzle that I haven't fitted in yet before I wave goodbye to the need to figure it all out.

Anyway, I wanted to ask...you mentioned before that things Before the Beatles were different than After they dumped him. Do you see this as the significant turning point? This is a unique insight on your part and I've only ever read the Paul Mason (thank you, [i:55a63240d4]not[/i:55a63240d4] Martin!) chapter about how Mahesh just kept plugging along and building his empire.

Secondly, when you were secretary, and saw the women who would go to Mahesh's room night after night...I just have to ask! Feminine Feline Curiosity has gotten the better of me...how many women would go at once? Do you recall? Did they go into his private quarters and perhaps sit in chairs and wait their turn for an audience? Or was it just one 'lady' at a time for a short period of favortism before someone new came along? I'm trying to grasp this in humanoid terms. I mean, were these women 'dating' him and did they have a courtship? With wooing and then a nasty break-up followed by tearful apologies and a long goodbye? What in the name of Crikey is the anatomy of a 'boyfriend named Holy Guru Highness'???? eeeek!!!

It always seems to come down to this, in 'masters' who demand celibacy and strict codes of morality and prudishness in their followers. The 'masters' themselves are often quite prolifigate and usually downright smarmy or evil or abusive.

Maybe I'm just in denial. Maybe they were just serving him hot milk and some cookies and reading him a bedtime story. yeah... :oops:

hmmm. This is good dialogueing, in my opinion. I'm really grateful and tickled by all your insights. Are you a Brit, by chance? I've noticed some slang that is definitely not 'American English'.

[b:74a17912d9]No, not British, Canadian[/color:74a17912d9][/b:74a17912d9]

Mostly I am just glad to finally AT LAST find others who are ex-Tm'ers and who have been there, done that. I still have many pieces of the puzzle that I haven't fitted in yet before I wave goodbye to the need to figure it all out.

[b:74a17912d9]I haven't talked with enouth "escapees" to know, but I suspect it takes quite a bit of time, depending with whom you can dialogue and how much you can tolerate dredging up and looking at. It's tough. Toni was fantastic help for me as was the TM Cautionary site FALLING DOWN THE TM RABBIT HOLE[/color:74a17912d9][/b:74a17912d9]

Anyway, I wanted to ask...you mentioned before that things Before the Beatles were different than After they dumped him. Do you see this as the significant turning point? [b:74a17912d9]YES[/b:74a17912d9][/color:74a17912d9] This is a unique insight on your part and I've only ever read the Paul Mason (thank you, not Martin!) chapter about how Mahesh just kept plugging along and building his empire.

[b:74a17912d9]I think you have to read between the lines in Paul's book. Mahesh expected the Beatles to deposit something like 15% of their gross into his Swiss Account and a few pages later he tells a reporter "I have nothing" -- well the lie is obvious, or the disgruntled, sour grapesing is something, but the Fab Four weren't idiots or retarded; they could smell a scam. Whether the thing with Mia Farrow was as recorded or whether Mahesh was screwing someone else [one of those present was someone who looked quite Mia, although her hair colour was different; she was a long time devotee who attended most of the India courses; she was also from Toronto, where I am. Mahesh had a thing for her. Whether he was screwing her or trying to, no body knows; but her being with his a lot may have gotten the Fab Four curious and backed Mahesh into a corner; he's one of the cleverest, most intelligent, quick on his feet and socially brilliant individuals I have ever met; but you and everybody else has to fill in the blanks from there] ... ok, my thread ... whether Mahesh was screwing someone else I don't know; but he was probably trying to seduce either sexually or otherwise, someone who had money or influence or both; he's hardly above using a sexual come-on, carefully veiled, allowing him huge deniability knowing his cleverness and charisma, to get what he wants.[/color:74a17912d9][/b:74a17912d9]

Secondly, when you were secretary, and saw the women who would go to Mahesh's room night after night...I just have to ask! Feminine Feline Curiosity has gotten the better of me...how many women would go at once? Do you recall? Did they go into his private quarters and perhaps sit in chairs and wait their turn for an audience? Or was it just one 'lady' at a time for a short period of favortism before someone new came along?

[b:74a17912d9]You ask a complex question, but you also know what you're asking as if you were there. I'll try not to be so convoluted (hard to avoid with Mahesh) and say this: [i:74a17912d9]usually[/i:74a17912d9] it was 3 or 4 women at a time who would follow him out of the lecture hall into his private part of the hotel. After that, I don't know. Certainly when Billy Clayton and Rob McCutcheon accidently came into his room (he had apparently rolled over :roll: onto the buzzer) he was with only one woman. -- As for "replacements" - yes, constantly. One notes this in Toni's mention of Keith being replaced by Larry. One of the teachers here in Toronto (this was in the 60's-70's) noted that Mahesh's favourites were like dancing bears in some taudry circus. They were constantly replaced by someone else who offered more entertainment or more personal exposure (of the publicity kind) for Mahesh [i:74a17912d9]i.e.[/i:74a17912d9] got him more of the attention he craved; or offered him something he could steal and concoct into his own wast wedic wisdom. He stole "stress" from Hans Selye and came up with "unstressing" and all its meaninglessness. Prior, he had only talked about unwinding (no one ever said [i:74a17912d9]oh, you're just unwinding[/i:74a17912d9]) and before that, there was "smoke" from burning old knots of past experience.[/color:74a17912d9][/b:74a17912d9]

I'm trying to grasp this in humanoid terms. I mean, were these women 'dating' him and did they have a courtship?

[b:74a17912d9]They were more like temple concubines or mistresses or whatever Vestal Virgins got up to ... oh, wait, they had to be virgins ... you see my drift.[/b:74a17912d9][/color:74a17912d9]

With wooing and then a nasty break-up followed by tearful apologies and a long goodbye?[b:74a17912d9] Probably not, he was too charasmatic and manipulative for that to happen. [/b:74a17912d9][/color:74a17912d9]What in the name of Crikey is the anatomy of a 'boyfriend named Holy Guru Highness'???? eeeek!!!

[b:74a17912d9]Who knows! Given Mahesh penchant for secrecy, why would there ever be a need for a neme? But this tells us more about cult operations than answers your question.[/color:74a17912d9][/b:74a17912d9]

It always seems to come down to this, in 'masters' who demand celibacy and strict codes of morality and prudishness in their followers. The 'masters' themselves are often quite prolifigate and usually downright smarmy or evil or abusive.

[b:74a17912d9]Bingo.[/b:74a17912d9][/color:74a17912d9]

Maybe I'm just in denial. Maybe they were just serving him hot milk and some cookies and reading him a bedtime story. yeah... [/color:74a17912d9]

Yes, and I'm Secretary of State and Condi is serving me hot milk and cookies. With Mahesh, I consistently suspect two things: he wanted something physical and/or he wanted something these women could get him ... inroads to influential people, money, publicity, more money, more fame. Coming back to the Beatles, they had it all and he had just declared himself a failure and said publicly that he was retiring into silence, his mission had failed, he had failed. And then fate hands him the Beatles. There is an ancient saying: [i:74a17912d9]if the whole Himalaya were one lump of gold, it would not be enough for one man.[/i:74a17912d9] And suddenly here was his lump of gold and it dumped him! So he decided to show possibly his nagging sense of Guru Dev's presence and possible lack of approval just who was who! Suddenly massive nhumbers of TM teachers were being churned out, World Plan Centres were being set up to make sure everybody did everything his way, money was wasted like a two year old wastint toilet paper in the name of potty training; he was broke and came up with the 'sidhi' crap and made $11 million the first time he taught it over the telephone across the U.S of A.[/color:74a17912d9]

Alas, I rant. But, Rose, you know your stuff, you have keep perception. I like our conversations, but maybe responding in this manner in colour is an error. I'll post and hope for the best.[/color:74a17912d9]