Hello there

I have been doing Nichiren Buddhism chanting since May 2009 and took up the gohonzon in March 2010 and I have found it extremely helpful however I have a huge problem with attendance and meetings and other members. I find it too focused on kosenrufu as the reality is the real world simply does not want it or even need it there are far more many 'capable individuals' out there than even the supposed Buddhists who are meant to be working on their human revolution.

To me the brainwashing from the SGI fosters dependency and manipulation and superstitious thinking.

I am worried about any backlash and references to my 'fundamental darkness' from other members as I then worry about whether I will stitch my karmas up more than they already are by not attending.

I have been a single parent the whole time I have been chanting and the whole reason for taking it up about from general wellbeing and because I enjoy having a spiritual belief was to get my 'relationship victory'. This has not been especially forthcoming although I do know a nice man he is recuperating from a life threatening illness (bowel cancer) and cannot meet up just yet as he is too tired to drive far and he lives 5 hours away from where I do. So I have not even seen real tangible 'proof'.

My ex rarely sees our son who is now eight and I have been raising him since 5 months. My local district does not have enough members. I have no family support so I cannot get to meetings at the best of times as the SGI is not child friendly!! I have been made to feel like my son is in the way on a few occasions by even one of the top co-ordinators.

What I am worried about is that my ex will now see our son even less now I am no longer attached to the meetings in fact I am worried sick about this have I given in to superstitious thinking that I will now mess up my karma?

Any thoughts would be gratefully received!

Thank you.

Well, dishastro, in the end, you're the one who has to live with yourself, no one else. Not being facetious.

Think of the principle of cause and effect. This principle states that, whatever you do, you're going to get more of. If you are around people who treat your son badly, you will continue to be around people who treat your son badly, and, worse, your son will come to see others treating him badly as "normal." He will learn that he is not worthy of respect. He will see that his mother apparently thinks it's *fine* for other adults to be mean to him - she apparently thinks more of them than she does of her own son. Think carefully about cause and effect - I didn't do enough of this until toward the end of my tenure.

To me the brainwashing from the SGI fosters dependency and manipulation and superstitious thinking.

A great many people have independently arrived at the same conclusion :)

Fundamental darkness, shmundamental darkness. Who's to say that yours is "worse" than anyone else's? And how is it "fundamental darkness" if you simply insist on reserving your right to think about things and decide for yourself? In the SGI, you will *never* see the Kalama Sutra, sometimes called the Buddha's charter of free inquiry. Here are a couple of paraphrases:

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“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”

Read the source for yourself if you like: [www.accesstoinsight.org]

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My ex rarely sees our son who is now eight and I have been raising him since 5 months. My local district does not have enough members. I have no family support so I cannot get to meetings at the best of times as the SGI is not child friendly!! I have been made to feel like my son is in the way on a few occasions by even one of the top co-ordinators.

I was in the SGI-USA for over 20 years, the last 10 of which I had children. Two children. I was *constantly* criticized, marginalized, and made to feel unwelcome because of my children - and, having been a YWD HQ-level leader and now living in San Diego, I addressed this all the way up to the national leadership! No changes O_O

For example, when we first moved out here, I was assigned to a district. The youngest person there was in her late 30s; everyone else was pushing 50 at least. The couple whose home the district meets were held in had a wall that was floor to ceiling shelves, filled with fascinating and breakable knick-knacks. My children were 2 and 4 at this time. They told me I could put on a video in this room just off the main room during the meeting at one of the meetings. The next time I came, I was told the children could not use that room again because there had been "some damage." I asked what the damage was and offered to pay for whatever it was, but they just put their noses in the air and ignored my offers. I then happened upon a district run by a family with 2 children, and immediately decided to move there. That month, I went to my first Gosho study in this new city, which was at this fat old lady's house. There was a back hallway that my children were running up and down in (quietly). The other family with small children who sat like little statues were praised on their children's good behavior; I was scolded, even though my children had not damaged anything. When I brought this up with my new HQ leaders (Fats was a Chapter WD leader) I was told how much everyone appreciates those who "open up their homes" for meetings. BTW, when I would see the couple from the first district at various meetings like kosen rufu gongyos, they would walk *right* past me without even saying "hello". If I said "Hi" to them, they ignored me. Such *NICE* people O_O

I watched; the only parents to be praised by SGI leaders on their children's behavior are the ones whose children sit motionless. Is this type of behavior healthy or even normal for a 2- or 3-year old? It appears the SGI leaders are only interested in their own convenience.

Early on, I got the back room with the sound system at the local community center reserved for parents with small children. This feature is often called the "crying room", as it can be closed off separate from the main assembly room. I noticed an old gent with big ears sitting next to a middle-aged Asian woman in the front row of chairs in that room as KRG was starting. I was new; this man had never seen me before. I was using a sutra book (I don't, typically) and I'd forgotten my juzus. So there was no way he could tell that I wasn't a brand new member/shakubuku. At one point, my son (age 4) grabbed a ball out of my daughter (age 2)'s hands - she shrieked in outrage. Big Ears turned around and yelled, "KEEP THOSE CHILDREN QUIET DURING GONGYO!" Note that he was sitting only 2 feet away from a big sign saying "THIS ROOM RESERVED FOR FAMILIES WITH SMALL CHILDREN" O_O So I immediately got one of the byakuren and told her the old fart was not happy in the "crying room". She offered to move him and the lady to a couple of locations in the main room, but he was adamant that he was going to stay there. But he didn't say anything else to me. Certainly no apology!

Why would I want to put my children into such a hostile environment?

What I am worried about is that my ex will now see our son even less now I am no longer attached to the meetings in fact I am worried sick about this have I given in to superstitious thinking that I will now mess up my karma?

Are you suggesting that your ex is an SGI member? Why should you think that YOU are in any way responsible for your ex's choices/behavior? That's weird and codependent thinking - just sayin' :D Back in the 1980s, when I joined, and up into the early 1990s, there was a persistent doctrine of sorts, that, if the woman practiced sincerely and correctly, everyone in her family would naturally *WANT* to practice independently for themselves. So there was all this pressure for women to "persuade" their non-member husbands to chant (and children, too). Because, so long as the husband and children weren't practicing the way the leaders wanted them to, the woman was on the receiving end of an unremitting sort of vibe/attitude that there was obviously something wrong with her. Pernicious.

Also, why is it that there should be so much pressure on *YOU* to stay in the meetings where you aren't really welcome, for the sake of "not messing up your karma", but there is *no* karmic effect on your ex who is *IGNORING* his own son and being a crappy father?? What's fair about that? Why should YOU be the one who's being pressured - and not HIM? HE's the one who's doin it rong!

to get my 'relationship victory'.

Does all this talk about "victory" and "defeat" really seem compatible with Buddhism according to what you thought of Buddhism before getting involved with the SGI? Here is a statement attributed to Shakyamuni Buddha:

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Winning gives birth to hostility. Losing, one lies down in pain. The calmed lie down with ease, having set winning and losing aside.
Buddha
Dhammapada.

There. Doesn't *THAT* sound more consistent with the Four Noble Truths ("Attachments cause suffering") and the supposed goal of ridding oneself of attachments? If you are focused on some "victory", that is evidence of being extremely *attached* to that outcome, isn't it? If you dig around in your psyche, you might find (as I did) that this idea of "victory" is deeply entangled with the fear that, if you don't get that specific outcome, you will never be happy or successful in life, and you will live and die lonely and sad. I suggest that you can enjoy your life as a single or as part of a couple, and, if you think about it, there's really no loneliness so dark as being committed to someone who does not love you and does not treat you well.

So you've been practicing for almost 4 years and still no relationship "breakthrough". I'm sure that, if you've asked leaders for "guidance", you've been told you just need to practice harder/attend more activities/support the district meetings/chant more/blah blah blah. That was my experience. How long should you expect to wait, when you've been told "Chant for what you want"? Isn't there the implication that you'll GET it if you chant for it??

I was involved with a single mom, two sons, who wasn't really able to make ends meet on her child support payments from her ex. San Diego is really expensive! So she immediately signed up with Match.com and got herself a guy to move in with. But she didn't really like him - felt unsafe when he was driving, for example, just a lot of unhealthy, dysfunctional crap. And she put her two young sons in that environment! Well, she was chanting 4 hours a day to "change her financial karma." She had arrived in her late 30s without a college degree and with no relevant job experience, so the only jobs open to her were entry-level, and she felt that was beneath her. When I told her as gently as I could that even the members of the longest practices agreed that it typically takes 10 years to change financial karma (long enough to go to college and get a degree and/or to accumulate enough job experience to get a promotion, in other words), she flipped out, called me all sorts of nasty names, told me I was a *terrible* mother, and never spoke to me again! "I don't have 10 years!" she said. "I need my financial karma to change RIGHT NOW!" As if she expected money to just fall out of the sky or something. I felt bad - I had earlier (stupidly) told her she could chant for anything and "make the impossible possible." What a load of hooey.

I've been out for 5 years now, and REALLY glad I left. Not a moment's regret. I don't chant any more, and my life has been getting better and better. What I realized was that "chanting for what you want", for me at least, served to *strengthen* my attachments rather than move me toward letting them go. The whole emphasis on "my karma" led to me becoming a doormat and not standing up for myself as I should. To be honest, a lot of that came from my destructive early childhood indoctrination into Evangelical Christianity and my physically/emotionally abusive mother, but the SGI's focuses didn't help.

And the whole cult of worshiping that fat old Japanese frogman Ikeda really grosses me out.

There is much discussion of the SGI on this forum here: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI

You might find it interesting. New contributions are always welcome! Best of luck with everything, and I do hope you will not let anyone convince you to feel guilty for making the best decisions for your own life, regardless of what those decisions are. Anyone who really cared about YOU would encourage you to carefully evaluate your various activities and whether or not you're enjoying them, so that you can better choose what's working for you and what's not, so that you can get more of the "what's working" in your life and cut out the "not working". Let's face it - if you're spending a lot of time doing things you don't enjoy, around people you don't enjoy, that leaves you a lot less time to spend on the activities you DO enjoy, right? And much less time to spend with people you DO enjoy? Or that you might spend doing something where you might meet people you have more in common with...hmmm?

Look, I realize that the pitch that "you can chant for whatever you want" is seductive. And sticky - it's hard to let go. For me, at the root of it all was the fear that I couldn't make it in life without some sort of "trick" - a magic spell, or a magical incantation, or supernatural assistance, something that would enable me to bend the rules of reality, because with reality as I thought it was, I would never ever be happy or successful. That was an irrational fear - I can see that now - but when I was in the grips of it, I couldn't see it. And I thought that, if I stopped chanting/doing gongyo, I would have *nothing*. Now I realize that I need *NOTHING*! I already have the whole package. The idea that I *NEEDED* to chant for what I wanted strengthened my fear that, unless I did something magical/invoked the supernatural, I would never have what I needed.

One final comment (sorry this is so long - I'm verbal) - since "attachment causes suffering" (a foundational Buddhist doctrine that the SGI acknowledges), and since "attachment" isn't separated into "good" or "evil" (which the SGI likewise acknowledges); and since someone who is still in thrall to attachments and delusions cannot attain enlightenment (by definition); then, at some point, you are going to have to rid yourself even of your "attachment" to Buddhism if you are going to attain enlightenment, right? If that line of thinking intrigues you, I recommend this great (longish) article about "emptiness": [www.thezensite.com]

Excerpt:

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However, ultimately no truth...is "absolutely true." All truths are essentially pragmatic in character and eventually have to be abandoned. Whether they are true is based on whether they can make one clinging (more attached) or non-clinging (free from attachment). Their truth-values are their effectiveness as a means (upaaya) to salvation. The Twofold Truth is like a medicine;it is used to eliminate all extreme views and metaphysical speculations. In order to refute the annihilationist, the Buddha may say that existence is real. And for the sake of rejecting the eternalist, he may claim that existence is unreal. As long as the Buddha's teachings are able to help people to remove attachments, they can be accepted as "truths." After all extremes and attachments are banished from the mind, the so-called truths are no longer needed and hence are not "truths" any more. One should be "empty" of all truths and lean on nothing.

To understand the "empty" nature of all truths one should realize, according to Chi-tsang, that "the refutation of erroneous views is the illumination of right view." The so-called refutation of erroneous views, in a philosophical context, is a declaration that all metaphysical views are erroneous and ought to be rejected. To assert that all theories are erroneous views neither entails nor implies that one has to have any "view". For the Maadhyamikas the refutation of erroneous views and the illumination of right views are not two separate things or acts but the same. A right view is not a view in itself; rather, it is the absence of views. If a right view is held in place of an erroneous one, the right view itself would become one-sided and would require refutation. The point the Maadhyamikas want to accentuate, expressed in contemporary terms, is that one should refute all metaphysical views, and to do so does not require the presentation of another metaphysical view, but simply forgetting or ignoring all metaphysics.

Like "emptiness," the words such as "right" and "wrong" or "erroneous" are really empty terms without reference to any definite entities or things. The so-called right view is actually as empty as the wrong view. It is cited as right "only when there is neither affirmation nor negation." If possible, one should not use the term. But:

We are forced to use the word 'right' (chiang ming cheng) in order to put an end to wrong. Once wrong has been ended, then neither does right remain. Therefore the mind is attached to nothing.

To obtain ultimate enlightenment, one has to go beyond "right" and "wrong," or "true" and "false," and see the empty nature of all things. To realize this is praj~naa (true wisdom).

To use a mundane example, when you're sick, you might need medicine to feel better. But once your fever is gone, or your cough, or whatever, you should stop using the medicine you were using for relief, right? Once you are no longer sick, you no longer need that medicine! The Buddha's teachings were intended to help us learn how to think and perceive accurately, so that we would then be prepared to step out into the world independently. Just like any decent education. What would we think of a person who insisted that he should remain in high school for his entire life?

Best wishes for your journey - it will be exciting! Namaste.

Thank you Taitenandproud you have answered me so comprehensively I am quite bowled over and yes you are right about the SGI favouring motionless children the local co-ordinator has two just like that! So they are of course highly approved of lol. And her home is of showhome status everything in its place and lacking in character .....

The ex was not a Buddhist he is into the church for what it is worth and I am already hopeful of more access next halfterm after all as his daughter who is grown up is looking into assisting as I told her my health was going down the swanny (not sure of spelling there) so we already have proof it won't affect access! Which is of course great news.

I will study the final part of your reply in greater detail too once I get some more spare time I just wanted to say thank you so much for the time and effort you put into the reply.

Namaste to you too my friend.

So glad to hear that you have such a good rapport with your stepdaughter ("bonus daughter" - lol!)! That says a lot, perhaps more than you realize - it says that she *wants* to be in your company, which tells me that you are a kind and thoughtful person. Too often, children feel intense hostility toward their step-parents - the blended family is most definitely a mine-field that too few are aware of the need to delicately tiptoe through. Not suggesting walking on eggshells, mind you, just the need to be hyper-aware of the children's feelings. They didn't choose the blending, after all, and in too many cases, their preferences are not even considered. I have heard it suggested that, in shared ex-parenting, the PARENTS should switch houses to share custody instead of shuttling the kids from house to house - I love that idea! :D Of course, easier said than done :/

I think it's "Suwannee", but I can't be bothered to look it up. Anyhow, your stepdaughter sounds like a peach. It seems extended families get short shrift in American culture, what with its cult of independence and the frontier spirit, but I'm a huge fan. How fortunate you are to have such a stepdaughter!

You can't control your ex, though I'm sure the huge disconnect between "Christianity as the religion of love" and his behavior is blinding. It's not your fault, and it's not your child's fault. Please make sure you understand that, because if you do, then you will be able to communicate to your child that it's not your son's fault that his dad is absent. There's no need to badmouth Dad, of course, not that you would - some people just aren't able to be attentive parents. If anyone within the SGI is suggesting, using whatever terminology, that it's your responsibility that your ex is gone and that you need to change something within yourself in order to cause him to change into what you want, PLEASE recognize that this is a manipulative lie designed to beat down your self-esteem and render you obedient, docile, and pliant so that the organization can use you for its purposes. I'm not saying anyone is suggesting that, just been around enough to see that concept being floated.

And if anyone outside of the SGI is insinuating such nonsense, I suspect it's a means of distancing themselves from you so as to not have to feel obligated to help you. After all, if it's your fault, then you just go ahead and lie in that bed you made - right? A lot of people are afraid of getting involved, and they'll say cold-blooded things to help themselves disconnect from the feelings of compassion or empathy that make them feel uncomfortable. That's just my opinion, of course - it's the only way I can make sense of it, personally. I really don't think people are fundamentally hateful, not most people, at least.

Buddhism, REAL Buddhism, is, at its core, a way of helping people accept reality as it is. Of helping them to see how much they hurt themselves by clinging to a fantasy of what they wish reality were, and runningrunningrunning like rats on a wheel trying to change reality into their fantasy. REAL Buddhism is about accepting reality with grace and confidence, with the awareness that the world *is* and that you are in it, and that, when all is said and done, that is enough.

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daishastro
To me the brainwashing from the SGI fosters dependency and manipulation and superstitious thinking.

On this point, you are seeing very clearly and 100% correct. With that key point in mind, . . . . .

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daishastro
I find it too focused on kosenrufu as the reality is the real world simply does not want it or even need it there are far more many 'capable individuals' out there than even the supposed Buddhists who are meant to be working on their human revolution.

"Kosen-Rufu" is a cult-speak label used to rally cult members and get them to work toward a "common good" --> i.e., for the cult org.. In reality, it's meaningless manipulation, under a meaningless cult manufactured banner to give you the illusion / delusion that you are doing something --> i.e., "creating value", which is just more meaningless cult-speak manipulative lingo.

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daishastro
I am worried about any backlash and references to my 'fundamental darkness' from other members as I then worry about whether I will stitch my karmas up more than they already are by not attending.

"Fundamental darkness" is a cult scare tactic, an appeal to adverse consequences. Again, it's just more cult lingo nonsense. Just like fake "karma", it doesn't stand up to critical thinking / critical examination.

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daishastro
I have been a single parent the whole time I have been chanting and the whole reason for taking it up about from general wellbeing and because I enjoy having a spiritual belief was to get my 'relationship victory'. This has not been especially forthcoming although I do know a nice man he is recuperating from a life threatening illness (bowel cancer) and cannot meet up just yet as he is too tired to drive far and he lives 5 hours away from where I do. So I have not even seen real tangible 'proof'.

Even if you ever do get "tangible proof" (more gakkai cult-speak), by default, you will have to hand over the credit to the gakkai cult org. and practice. Confirmation bias, pure and simple. If you don't get "proof", the you have to practice harder and do more for the cult org.. Regardless, it's win-win, no matter what the outcome, for the cult org..

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daishastro
My ex rarely sees our son who is now eight and I have been raising him since 5 months. My local district does not have enough members. I have no family support so I cannot get to meetings at the best of times as the SGI is not child friendly!! I have been made to feel like my son is in the way on a few occasions by even one of the top co-ordinators.

The gakkai cult org. always does this to sincere members with toddler children. It's because they are at an age that the cult org. cannot yet use them. It's a waste of their time and resources. Most of all, they are at an age where they are inconvenient for the cult org.. Once they reach elementary school age (and are controllable and usable), then the cult org. welcomes them open arms into the ESD (Elementary School Division) to brainwash them and teach them how to sing gakkai cult songs and perform The Dear Leader Fan Dance.

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daishastro
What I am worried about is that my ex will now see our son even less now I am no longer attached to the meetings in fact I am worried sick about this have I given in to superstitious thinking that I will now mess up my karma?

You are definitely under the influence of gakkai cult implanted superstitious fears (of not supporting the cult org.) and rituals (the notion that you "must" attend cult meetings and participate in other thought stopping activities, regularly).

The best advice I can offer (it's up you whether you choose to take it or not), is that the only way to permanently break the superstition spell, is to cultivate genuine critical thinking skills into your worldview. The sentence above, by you, is an indication that you are on the right track.



- Hitch

Thank you both of you for the replies.

The ex's grown up daughter accepts me as she is from Caribbean heritage and they all live in London where I used to live (although I was in the more leafy West London part as opposed to chavvy East London where they have always lived lol) that is why they accept me I never lived with her and indeed I was never with this ex joker long only 18 months or so due to his volatile nature I had to throw him out. West Indian cultures accept you once you split up as they do not have the stuck up ways of the English!

Yes I do not think it is healthy to be superstitious the whole time I will work at that however I still enjoy the chanting I just won't buy any more of the magazines or have anything to do with the SGI. It is right for me to keep hold of the gohonzon however if anybody approaches me to hand it back I will refuse as I see that its effects work in my life.

TaitenandProud you are bang on about the SGI pressuring people to chant for their exes it is unhealthy as if we are responsible for others' wrongdoings and must be trying harder to overcome it isn't functional I have never felt comfortable with their overemphasis on chanting for people who should take responsibility for their own lives. They should if anything be advising to chant to forgive those who hurt us instead.

I do astrology as a living and although I do know of a lovely SGI member in the States who is a psychic astrologer I have never met her but I have observed over the years of chanting that we still get the experiences and themes of our chart and its transitory phases. Chanting makes no different whatsoever beyond cheering us up along the way in order to cope with them. I have observed this in other members' charts too as some of them I have done.

I think the essential lesson is to keep only the positive experiences and discard the rest without self-blame or guilt so I will work on this!

Thank you once again.

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I still enjoy the chanting I just won't buy any more of the magazines or have anything to do with the SGI. It is right for me to keep hold of the gohonzon however if anybody approaches me to hand it back I will refuse as I see that its effects work in my life.

By all means! Do whatever you enjoy doing! You are free to choose for yourself independently of what anyone else chooses - feel free to stand up for your own right to choose. Now, as to anyone demanding that you give them your gohonzon, set a price on it! Tell them, "I purchased it - do you wish to buy it from me? The price is $100 - cash." Or whatever currency you use - 100 Euros? When you got it, you had to plunk down some cash, did you not? Therefore, it is yours to do with as you please. Mine is sitting and gathering dust in the garage. I might sell it on eBay - I've seen them for sale there occasionally.

One of the legal principles in the US is that, once you have resigned from a religious organization, its laws and rules are no longer binding upon you. In order to enforce that, here in the US, we have to deliver a letter of resignation to the religious organization. We can legally ask that they remove all our personal information from their files, for example. And, under US law, the moment they *receive* that letter, then as of that moment, that religious organization's rules and regulations no longer apply to the person who resigned. Thus, no matter what you might have signed when you BOUGHT your gohonzon, if you resign from the organization, they can't touch you. Heck, they can't even TALK to you! If you are interested in how this works in the US, look here: [www.exmormon.org]

Sure, it's about Mormons, but there is only one set of laws that ALL religious organizations must follow *wink*

If you are living in the UK, I'm sure you can look up what the rules are over there. I, BTW, sent off my own letter of resignation to the SGI-USA in March. I have not yet received my letter of confirmation - I'll give them another month and then send a follow up letter. They will do as I say. They have to.

Chanting makes no different whatsoever beyond cheering us up along the way in order to cope with them.

That is supremely insightful - congratulations! I like the way you put it so succinctly.

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TaitenandProud you are bang on about the SGI pressuring people to chant for their exes it is unhealthy as if we are responsible for others' wrongdoings and must be trying harder to overcome it isn't functional I have never felt comfortable with their overemphasis on chanting for people who should take responsibility for their own lives. They should if anything be advising to chant to forgive those who hurt us instead.

I had a thought earlier today - that's why I came on today, but then I saw your post and had to respond :P

My thought is that we've got two postulates about human behavior:

1) At every moment, a given person is demonstrating *WHO S/HE IS*. Every moment, each person chooses what s/he is going to do (and not do).

2) Every person is doing his/her best.

While most people will agree with #1, a lot of people argue against #2. "No, s/he ISN'T! S/He could certainly do better than THAT!" No, s/he can't. Otherwise, s/he would.

Or perhaps s/he simply doesn't *WANT* to do what this observer considers to be "better"! That's always a possibility! As a woman, I've been around a lot of women who say things like, "He has so much potential! He could be really great if he wanted to, if he just tried." No doubt! But what he's showing through is behavior is that he doesn't *want* what she considers to be "great". He doesn't want to turn into someone else, in other words. And because HE doesn't want it, HE isn't going to "try"!

When we chant (or hope) for a person to change, what we are really saying is that we want to transform *THIS* person into a *DIFFERENT* person, one more to our liking. Because we really don't much like who this person is. Because we can't accept this person for what s/he is, we pressure and manipulate and pray and chant and hope etc. for this person to change into someone else.

As far as "forgiveness" goes, I am of two minds about that. Scoundrels want nothing more than to be forgiven; it gives them a free pass to do it all over again, because it removes the social censure that should accompany bad behavior in order to impress upon the person in question the importance of behaving according to society's mores. And it makes the forgiver a doormat in this case. I have a personal experience with this dynamic:

When I left my first husband, I took up with a young man I knew from work. Because I felt it was unethical to date a coworker, we only started dating after I had given my 2 weeks notice before leaving for a better job. Anyhow, he was the one who introduced me to the SGI (called NSA, Nichiren Shoshu of America, back then). Well, 3 months later, ON MY BIRTHDAY, he cheated on me with a woman who worked for the same company, though at a different location. They had talked on the phone for business, and then she and some coworkers came to town for something or other. He was such a coward he didn't even tell me - I had to figure it out myself, and then he confirmed it. I ended up forgiving him - reluctantly. Because he said things like, "You should be saying that having an affair with her was the best thing that could have happened, because it gave us the opportunity to work on our relationship!"

Nice, huh? More like "You should be saying that my cheating on you was the best thing that could have happened to US - because I'll be expecting you to say that every time it happens from now on!"

Well, in the end, he was right. It *WAS* the best thing that could have happened, because it showed me clearly, so clearly that even *I* couldn't delude myself otherwise, WHO HE WAS. What the nature of his character was. And, in the end, no matter how I tried to focus on his positive qualities, that was always there, reminding me that, deep down, he was an asshole. And in the end, it was that realization (confirmed many, MANY times over the course of our on-again, off-again 2-year relationship) that enabled me to break my attachment to the delusion that he was someone I could have a happy life with, and walk away. He simply wasn't someone I could ever be satisfied with, not given the content of his character and the choices he made. And what's interesting is that we both knew it. I ended up with someone infinitely better, by every measure :D

Of course you can choose to accept (I really don't like the word "forgive", in case you couldn't tell!) that someone did whatever s/he did, not out of malice or from a desire to harm you, but because s/he couldn't help it (for whatever reason - due to who s/he is, naturally), that's something different. That frees you from blaming that person and feeling negativity toward him/her - but I also hope this will include a realization that, while you don't feel angry or hateful toward that person, you acknowledge that that person isn't the sort of person you are going to choose to include in your inner circle any more. You may have to include that person in your broader circle of acquaintances (as in a relative), but you don't have to ever put yourself in a position where you are counting on that person to support you or help you in any way, since s/he has already demonstrated that is asking too much.

What each person is demonstrating at each moment is *WHO S/HE IS*. If we can't accept who a person is, the least we can do is to take our judgmental manipulations elsewhere and leave that poor person alone. Everyone wants to be accepted for who s/he is; if we are unable or unwilling to accept a given person's reality, then it's only kind to stay away from that person instead of presenting that unaccepting, judgmental, disapproving, dissatisfied attitude that everybody loves so much - know what I mean, jellybean??

Have a great weekend!

Hi TaitenandProud (also Hitch) sorry it has taken so long to reply.

Sorry to hear about your Buddhist ex I had a brief romantic phase with a Buddhist too who was ex alcoholic and turned out to be most selfish....!

We do not get charged for the gohonzon in the UK perhaps it isn't as cutthroat as over in the States .....

I am pleased you were able to find a much more suitable partner.

I am enjoying feeling relieved that I have gone for good and have only retained 4 non-harrassing type Buddhists on my facebook circle of friends. The others I unfriended. As for the chanting I am enjoying doing this alone indeed I have reflected by and large I have felt happier when I have been chanting alone to start with!

Thank you for your time and trouble both of you and enjoy the weekend! We have a Bank Holiday Monday over here in the UK so it should be a good relax with my 8 year old boy, in theory lol.

Take care !