Peace be with you,
I just wanted to share some love and encouragement with those who have made/are making the journey through high control relationships. I was raised very abusively. I thought I found loving family amongst Jehovah's Witnesses, but only met with the same things everyone else does in high control relationships; alienation, judgement, etc. Read all the books on cult recovery, "science of the meme", went in and out of domestic violence programs, dealt with resentment, insecurity, came to a degree of reasonability and 10 years later still considered going into the Twelve Tribes, lol. But I think I am finally over it now, thankfully. Starting my life from scratch, choosing my own beliefs, and living free of fear and anxiety [as much as humanly possible ;) ]. I am choosing who I want to be.
Ms. Crystal

Congratulations, Ms. Crystal. It sounds like you have managed to find your way to a decent place. Re: self-help books - I, too, realizing how unhappy I was, sought these sources for help, but what I found was that these books basically described what someone who *wasn't* mired in unhealthy and destructive habits would behave like. It simply described what people who weren't suffering were doing that was different from what suffering people (like me) WERE doing. They didn't offer *any* instructions on how to get to *there* from *here*! So they were completely USELESS!

I, too, had to find my own way. In the end, we all walk our own path, and each person's path is unique, which is why it is unlikely that someone else can prescribe the way out of whatever 'fix' you find yourself in.

I have recently enjoyed reading "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts", by Dr. Gabor Maté, a Canadian psychologist who has devoted his career to working with the most addicted and self-destructive members of society - the hard-core homeless. His insights and summaries of the recent research on brain development and brain chemistry are invaluable in understanding cravings and drives and, ultimately, what it is that propels us into these self-destructive patterns. I realize you likely aren't a drug-addicted homeless person, but the information he provides about how much of brain function is programmed in utero and during the first 5 years of life is astonishing. So I recommend that book, both for self-understanding and for developing compassion for the most vulnerable (and most unappealing) members of our society. I truly think there's something in there for everyone. In your case, you wouldn't have mistaken manipulative users for "loving family" if your brain chemistry hadn't been adversely affected by your abusive upbringing. As Dr. Maté puts it in his book, "Their brains never had a chance." Those who are not immediately repelled by the "high-control relationships" you mentioned are those who have a predisposition toward that type of abusive environment. Their early development has essentially "programmed" them to regard those potentially abusive environments as "supportive" and "nurturing" and comfortable.

Bottom line: IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT.

I know you're doing the best you can, and you deserve respect and admiration for all you have accomplished. I'm sorry if I'm expressing this awkwardly - I'm damaged myself, and am likewise doing my best, for what it's worth.

Remember, all the religions and spiritualities in the world are like selections at a grand buffet. You can choose whichever ones you like - and as many as you like! Whatever you're in the mood for! And if none of them appeals to you, you don't have to take anything at all. You are free to decide whatever you like - after all, it's YOUR life! No one else's!

Best wishes to you on this wonderful journey you are on. Perhaps we'll meet at some fork in the road, but regardless, namaste :)

TaitenandProud,
Thank you for responding. I will probably see if that book is available at the local library when I can. I have noticed what you stated, that yes, we have to pretty much take the steps from here to there on our own. And I do not doubt the brain being programmed, on a physical level even. As I have progressed in relating with other people I notice my own thought processes, how where they used to go/the pathways they had followed suddenly turned into dead ends. For example, everytime a belief was presented it would follow the pathway to what I would call a skeptic that would have a rebuttle for everything. One day I noticed it was purely blank there as if a litteral box had been removed that there was a sudden dead end on that road. I can now receive things objectively and come to objective conclusions. Instead of extremes of skeptism and unquestioning openness, it is a more fluid process of critical thinking not based on either experience or potential but a factoring in of both. It's quite fascinating to be able to observe my own brain's functions, lol. I can sense it as if I was observing it on a brain scanner or something. Self-awareness can be very powerful.
I remember visiting a friend's house after school one day and observing affectionate, respectful interactions in her family. I had a panic attack and wanted to leave immediately, go running from the house because it was so unnatural to me, so strange and in my mind deceitful...partially because niceness was always manipulation and followed by extreme abuse in my experience and partially because such a reality was something I would dream of as an illusion/impossible.
I know I have been held back by a fear of 'poisoning people' with my dysfunctions. I have been afraid more emotionally healthy people would just reject me so it would be better for them and me if I just stayed with the kind of people I was used to. now I am no longer insecure about anybody. In what i was given to accomplish, I AM successful. I AM extraordinary in what I have accomplished. I HAVE made very real, valuable achievements. those achievements will not just benefit me, but my family and community. I may not have started a bussiness, created jobs, made a lot of money, have financial security.....but I have achieved changing my own thinking, provide an example for my children and anyone else interested. I have a compassion maybe someone who has never gone through it will have. I have an example of how to make the journey your own, self-sufficient, independent, geared just for you treatment ;)
I have observed how, in my children, no matter how nice and respectful, affectionate, loving and mild I was with them...they always take after the abuser, the source of power because I did, too. This led to my oldest children abusing me and now my grandchildren. (I am 43, my oldest began having children at 14). This pushes me to have the courage I need to do whatever I can to prevent it from repeating in my children.
But I can also say that this past year has been amazingly pivotal as everything I have begun to put into practice 'out there' I have had tested in confrontation with just about all my past abusers, mother, siblings, lovers, etc. I have even advanced to now taking steps not to just defend myself by standing firmly in what I have come to know, unaflicted with self-doubt or insecurity...... but to take what actions are needed to begin bringing what I have gained to my older children who I had been out of contact with for the better part of 10 years. (childrens ages range from 21 down to 3).
As far as homelessness: fleeing my last abuser left me with nothing, including any documentation (ss numbers, id, birth certificates, etc), so i spent a summer in California living in a tent on the side of the railroad tracks holding a sign up on the street corner for money with two children both still in diapers. I lived amongst the hardcore homeless and became their advocate, in a sense, by refusing to accept payment for articles I wrote and were published in a paper that advocates for the homeless not just by publishing information about them, but also by giving them the means to make 'an honest living' handing it out in exchange for donations instead of just begging for handouts.
On one hand, I am 43 years old and there are those who tell me I should know better by now....but on the other hand, my life has been a series of journies and accomplishments other people cwouldn't have covered in several lifetimes :)
I am proud of myself in a way that is not the least bit arrogant (predominantly, lol)

I remember one day while visitng the local mom and pop shop in our little dirt road town. a woman came in seeking directions. I felt so alone, dirty, insecure, frumpy if you will (though I had a home on 10 acres, vehicle, the 'american Dream'). all I did was lay eyes on this woman who 'shined' to me....confident but not arrogant, comfortable but not aloof, clean but not vain and a desire was born in my heart to be just like what I had believed I had seen.
sometimes, we only have to be ourselves in the most simplist way to make a difference. Not a word needs to be uttered, no convincing or arguement neccessary. Stand there and 'be a vision' seen by someone else........

Ms. Crystal, given your background of homelessness, I can't recommend strongly enough "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts." But I don't expect you to go out and spend money on it - or even to go out! Here is the published excerpt on-line - see if you like what you see: [tinyurl.com]

That link drops you *right* into the middle of the section on how the fetus's maternal environment in utero determines so much of brain chemistry.

The fact that you have experienced homelessness speaks volumes to the degree to which you were abused: [tinyurl.com]

^ That link starts you at page 1. Most of the pages are included in this preview, so you can get a good idea of whether or not you want to schlep yourself down to the library and see if they have it. If they don't, give me the address of someone you know and I'll send a copy to you via them (to protect your privacy and anonymity). It's *that* important!

We know that the majority of chronically hardcore substance dependent adults lived, as infants and children, under conditions of severe adversity that left an indelible stamp on their development. Their predisposition to addiction was programmed in their early years. Their brains never had a chance. [tinyurl.com]

You have accomplished an incredible journey, which speaks volumes to your greatness of spirit and intense life force. I applaud your accomplishments, and I admire the person you are - that you have been all the while.

One of the reasons I like to see babies out in public is that they *see* me. When a baby looks at you, s/he *looks* at you! That baby sees you directly, without having to filter your image through a prism of judgment or fear. They look at you honestly and curiously - they want to see WHO you are! I look at people like this. I hope it doesn't frighten or offend people who are accustomed to the caged, masked looks they get from others.

Fear is a powerful influence, and so many people are driven by it. That woman you mentioned who came in for directions - you described a person unafraid in this world. That is the ideal - how can we attain it? When we have never known it?

As far as your older children go, have you read any of the work of the recently deceased pioneering child psychologist Alice Miller? Fortunately, many of her articles and interviews are online - I cannot praise her work highly enough. Here are a few good places to start:

Home: [www.alice-miller.com]

Here are some excerpts:

"You speak of child abuse in our cultures as A Forbidden Issue. Why is this so? What is needed to change this state of affairs?

The issue is forbidden because most of us were spanked in childhood and we don't want to be reminded of that. We learned as children that spanking is harmless. We had to learn this lie in order to survive. Now, as adults, we don't want to know the truth, that in fact spanking is harmful. It is interesting that when you say 'don't spank your child' people become aggressive with you. They become even more aggressive if you say 'you were spanked yourself and suffered as a child, you were forced to deny your pain in order to survive'. They would rather kill you than admit the truth and feel the pain of having been humiliated and unloved when they were spanked by someone five times bigger than themselves. These aggressive reactions are understandable. Imagine how you would feel if you went out on the street and suddenly somebody five times bigger than you beat you in a rage and you didn't even understand why. A child cannot bear this truth, it must repress it. But an adult can face up to it. As adults we are not so alone, we can look for witnesses and we have a consciousness we didn't have when we were children." [www.alice-miller.com]

"What would you like to do now?

I would like to support people who are confronting child abuse. I received a letter from a child therapist in California. He was a consultant for a school. A girl told him stories of a "hot box," a tiny windowless closet in which the children were locked up as punishment. He believed her, investigated, and, when he wrote a report about it, was fired. But he kept on investigating and found these hot boxes used in other schools. Newspapers reported about the case, and his voice and experience were noticed. He thanked me because he felt supported by my books. This shows one person can make people aware that methods they never questioned before are, in fact, damaging. The single advocate of a child can save a life; advocates say a crime is a crime; they don't conceal the truth by calling it ambivalent parent's love. An advocate can help keep a child from becoming a criminal. The child learns from an enlightened witness to recognize cruelty, to reject it, to defend himself against it, so as not to perpetuate it. Experiments have conclusively proven that no one learns anything by punishment. What you learn is how to avoid punishment by lies and how to punish a child twenty to thirty years later. People continue to believe, however, that punishment can be effective." [www.alice-miller.com]

"How many people do you think were abused in their childhood?

It is difficult to estimate how many people were not abused. I do know people who were not exploited in their childhood, who were loved, cared for and allowed to live their true feelings. I saw them as babies and I see that they are able to give their children the same respect which they got from their parents. But I don’t know many like that. Spanking children is still regarded as harmless and useful all over the world. I think that about 90% of the world population has been abused in this way more or less severely. You can see every day on the TV what the most severely abused are doing when they become adults who deny their suffering and admire and respect their abusing parents. You can test it, you can go around the world and ask the most cruel people how their parents were. The answer of the biggest tyrants will often be: My parents were wonderful people. They wanted the best for me, but I was a stubborn child.
Human blindness to abuse can be astonishing. Even when confronted with their own obvious abuse, people still believe in the myth of being loved, and keep abusing their children (and children of others). How would you most effectively "open their eyes" to what they are doing? Is this possible at all?

I can’t open the eyes of others; they will quickly close them again, and they don’t want to see – or they are afraid to see – the truth because they expect to be punished by their parents or by God who represents them. I can only open my own eyes and say what I am seeing. And sometimes people feel encouraged to open one eye or even both. They are then surprised that they were not punished, that they feel even relief since they have stopped betraying themselves.

If parents say: "Spanking didn’t do me any harm", they will do the same to their offspring without a second thought. But if they can see that the treatment of their parents mutilated their lives, they will try to spare their children from the same destiny, they will look for information and will not want to be blocked in denial and ignorance." [www.alice-miller.com]

And in response to the typical assertion: "I was spanked, and I turned out okay," I would respond, "No, you didn't. You think it's okay for adults to harm small helpless children."

"I notice that a lot of people become allergic when they see a truly childlike child unburdened by guilt and abuse. They just can’t stand it. They repeat that every child must be socialised as soon as possible, in other words taken away from parents and put into kindergarten so that he/she becomes "available" to anyone. They preach the benefits of socialisation as if it was a most sacred, noble cause. I find this social pressure enormous. But in this context socialisation equals adaptation to cruelty. Why is a child who is alive, genuine and pure, in their eyes unbearable, even sinful, and must by all means be mutilated so he/she would become similar to them?
Because the child’s creativity and liveliness triggers in the parents the repressed pain of being suffocated. They are afraid of feeling the pain, so they do whatever they can to avoid the triggers. By insisting on obedience they kill the lively child, they victimize him or her as they themselves were victimized before. For that reason, they absolutely need information. This is why we talk and work on this interview. Most parents don’t want to hurt their children, they do it automatically, just by repeating what they themselves learned as children. We can help them to stop this destructive behaviour by explaining to them why it is actually destructive. So that they can wake up and make a choice." (Ibid.)

According to Dr. Miller, the reason that people as adults perpetuate the worst of the abuse they suffered is twofold: 1) Because their bodies remember what happened to them, and, when faced with a situation that triggers memories of a similar situation experienced in their own childhood, they react to their children as their parents reacted to them. What happened to them has turned out to be the only tools in their toolbox, so to speak, so when faced with that sort of scenario, all they have to pull out are what their parents pulled on them. It takes a lot of self-discipline and self-education to overcome that early programming, and few manage it. That's why abuse tends to travel from generation to generation. It's largely an unconscious thing - what was done to you becomes your "norm".

A couple of articles that address this are here: [www.alice-miller.com]

And here: [www.alice-miller.com]

And HERE!! [www.alice-miller.com]

My personal take on her research is that the first step is to apologize to my children for when I was violent toward them. I gained control of myself early on, but not early enough. I cannot apologize enough to my son, who was on the receiving end of my blind rage before I was able to understand what was driving me. I can only hope my acknowledgment and apologies are enough to short-circuit the negative programming. Time will tell - he's only 15. I never abused my daughter, fortunately. She just turned 14. I'm almost 53, BTW.

You're only 43 - how wonderful! You have fully HALF your life ahead of you, and it's all as an adult! Imagine - almost half of your life so far was as a child/young person who was trying to figure life out under the most adverse circumstances. And now here you are - with that full amount yet to go, and you're mature and informed! Terrific!!

Please forgive me if I've offended - I didn't mean to. I truly admire what you have accomplished, and I wish only the best for you. I have confidence that you are on the right track, and that you're thinking insightful and enlightened thoughts, the kind that illuminate the spirit and everyone around you. Cheers!!

Becoming easily offended is a symptom I no longer exhibit, thanks be to God who is so gracious! lol No, no offense what-so-ever.
One of my goals this past summer was what I called allowing my children to live an emotionally honest life.....a need I was given to perceive after observing the imporatnce of it in living fearlessly and healthily......what you quoted Alice Miller as referring to as being allowed to live their true feelings. And yes, it makes people very uncomfortable. heaven forbid an innocent child cries tears of dissapointment when the foodstamp machine is broken and we cannot purchase the ice-cream she has picked out for herself! Thanks be that I have been given the patience for it.
I remembered how often in my life I had been told not to cry, to shush, have had my retained ability to cry at hurt, release of fear, etc pointed to as weakness or emotional instability. I responded to one woman who was threatening me and ridiculing me for crying while I was in my late 30's: I am not afraid to cry. You should be happy to see me crying. What people need to fear is when I am done crying. For when I am done crying, have released all my fear, is when there is nothing left to save you from the rock-solid center that is capable of defending me unquestioningly. Thatwas probably rather brutish of me and not something i would promote, but it was an opportunity for me to witness to myself my longer fearing my tendency to cry as an expression of my whole heart's engagement in everything I do. In that instance I was no longer afraid or intimidated by female bullies.
Another thing people like to hush in me is my enthusiasm. I am excited by my faith in God, my experiences and my enjoyment of people, places and things. It used to disturb my mother and she beat expressing it out of me "no one likes to hear so much talking first thing in the morning!". I wake up happy quite often and naively share my excitement "inconsiderately", lol. So, I respect those who it truly hurts (because, like a light suddenly shining in a darkened room hurts the eyes, a bright spirit truly hurts the darkened spirits in a room) and live alone so our days in this household can all begin with a cheerful "Good morning!", often singing, clapping and dancing, which my 3 and 4 year old enjoy.

I have observed what Alice Miller has asserted, that it is so culturally ingrained and so strongly reacted to (to point of wanting to kill the innocent and pure beings) that I use great discernment daily. I realized it was never my inadequacies that caused me to be abused, but rather what had been preserved to even a small extent in me: my emotional honesty. i now can see a light suddenly flash up in the eyes of predatory types when a tear comes to my eye when I confront their abuses...the "aha! I have got you and made a meal of you!"I give thanks inwardly and silently reply "no, your feast was my puke...the puking up the fear that has been repressing me and keeping me captive, there will be no meal the next time I see you"...and there isn't.

i think 14 and 15 are possibly ideal ages to be introducing new ways of thinking. Which is why i am so adamantly persuing custody of two of my daughters who are also this year 14 and 15. research has found that the sudden personality change that hits at puberty is due to the brain's neurons disconnecting......disrupting established patterns of thinking and detaching actions and consquences, their ability to perceive(and thus be influenced by) their affect on other people....an opportunity to begin to establish new patterns as they begin recconnecting, determining thinking patterns for their next stage of developement. I believe, from observation, that next stage of developement begins at 21, which is what my oldest is and i am thus challenging her to think differently as well.
Yes, only half my life...or less than 1/4 according my cousin's birthday blessing for me this weekend: "May you be buried in the wood of a 100 year old tree....which I will plant tomorrow!" heehee

Thank you for your replies to my posting. I am enjoying the exchange.
Ms. Crystal

My perspective on the widely acknowledged negative changes that happen with the teen years is that most people vastly underestimate the capabilities and intelligence of their "tween" children. In families that use violence to control their children, by the time they reach the "tween" years (between 8 and 14), they have learned (through necessity) how to avoid angering their brutish parents and how to survive in that hostile environment. They totally recognize their own physical weakness and the fact that they have *nothing* they can use to protect themselves - they may not yet even know that Child Protective Services exists or how to call it! And if they try to report abuse to school authorities or even (heaven forfend) call 911, the shocking punishment they will receive once their parents have them alone again will assure they *never* do that again. In that horrid case where the foster/adoptive parents of those four poor boys systematically starved and abused them, where the social workers failed to recognize the signs of extreme hunger even though these children were not growing (their nasty "mother" said they had digestive disorders but no doctor ever did), when one told a teacher that they weren't being adequately fed at home, she told his "mother", who then removed him from school to "home school" him (which didn't actually happen - no education for YOU!). See [www.oprah.com] if you can stomach it.

In countries that have outlawed physical punishment of children (there are 31 countries so far that have done so - with positive results), each and every report is investigated thoroughly. By contrast, if a child shows bruises from a whipping to the school nurse here in the US, s/he is likely to be told, "Those are such small marks, that's not enough for anyone to be concerned about. We consider that 'normal'." So the child in the "tween" age group does whatever s/he has to to survive. And keeps secret all of the outrage, fury, and resentment this maltreatment causes - because s/he HAS keep it bottled up inside in order to survive.

So what happens when children hit their teens is that all of a sudden, they're now large enough to fight back? They are informed enough to realize they've got options - and they are *furious* at what they've had to put up with from their abusive parents, who they now can acknowledge only hit them because they, the children, were so much smaller and powerless. Because the children couldn't possibly fight back. Parents like that are nothing but the lowest and most cowardly of bullies, and the teenagers totally understand that. And they regard their monstrous parents with contempt and disdain. They behave as if they hate them, because these parents have lost any right to expect love from the children they bullied and beat into submission. Such families often splinter, with the children moving *far* away so as to only have contact with their thoughtless and inconsiderate parents when THEY choose it and under THEIR control.

When children are treated with respect while they are young, you don't see this Jekyll/Hyde transformation with the teen years. Children, rather than being viewed as possessions, a burden, or little slaves to obey the parent without question, should be regarded as full human beings. Their parents' role is to help them develop and discover who they are, what it is they like to do, and what sorts of people they are. Thus, the parent's primary activities should be to watch and listen, in order to learn more about their children and who they're becoming. Once the children are old enough to verbalize, the parents need to listen and set up the activities their children want, get them the experiences they crave. To the best of the parents' ability, of course. Children shouldn't be just dragged along on whatever the parent wants to do, with no regard for the child's feelings or interests. This selfishness on the part of the parent shows great immaturity and inconsideration of the other person in the equation, the child. Why shouldn't children's needs and wants be considered on equal footing with adults'?

Why should parents feel free to treat children in a way they would not *dare* treat a peer or an elderly person? Why should *children* be so disdained, devalued, and disrespected? And why does it remain legal to do to children what would be a crime to do to a fellow adult, even an elderly one? "Spanking" an elderly person is elder abuse. No hitting allowed. Why does this not apply even MORE so to the most vulnerable people in our society, children? Would you slap the checker at the grocery store for not checking you out fast enough? No? Then why would you ever slap a child for not doing something fast enough? Are you legally permitted to slap or whip a neighbor for getting on your nerves? No? Then why should you be allowed to do that to a small child who similarly gets on your nerves?

The culture in the US that both tolerates and condones - and even encourages! - violence against our most vulnerable citizens disgusts me. Why people hold such animosity toward children is beyond my ability to understand.

I see.

Ok, had to step back from the overwhelming barage about abusiveness, lol. I was just offering the hope of a potential opportunity for healing for goodness sake! lol
In my case, it was the opposite extreme which led to my oldest daughter's dysfunctions and her extreme personality change. Yes, she witnessed me being abused emotinally, though I protected and defended her absolutely, which is why she had so much trust in me to begin with. But where I lost her trust and confidence in me, her sense of security, was when I became weak. When they took her two sisters from me I became insecure about everything having to do with parenting, even displeasing my oldest. She began to be able to walk all over me. I became ineffective as a parent completely neglecting any discipline. To a child, this opposite extreme is equally irritating. Her rock became quicksand.
Many of us who had suffered abuse realize we only have two reactions: fight or flight. When cornered and flight isn't working, the only defensive tools we have been trained to use are abusive. The only 'discipline' we know is violent (physically, emotionally, etc). Knowing we do not want to abuse our children, we sometimes do nothing. Unless we learn how to administer fair, firm discipline/guidence/restriction from harming themselves and others, we fail as parents. A second chance to get it right, do my chilren justice, is a blessing and that is where I choose to focus.
Extremes are dangerous things. Anti-spanking is a rubber-band reaction from someone who only practiced spanking out of anger. To be against something is to be at war with it; to be against ANY kind of spanking is to be at war/violently opposed/abusive ourselves. There is a time and place for everything created, even war...but only done righteously for the right reasons will it result in anything productive, healthy, upbuilding. And so it is with discipline......it can bring peace.