Hi, im new to this forum...infact I just found it. :P

Anyways, my mom has been involved with Landmark Education for a number of months now, she has "been transformed". She signed me and my girlfriend for the forum and I am supposed to go this Friday, so I must respectfully beg for a response to this plea with the utmost expediancy.

As a precursor to this story, I must say my mom has had a life in which there is no word in english, latin, or italic that can completely describe how bad my mom has had it. Lets just say she was raped and had her best friend burnt to death in front of her by her mother. Anyways, she finds something that is making her happy and successful(Landmark Education). She tells me about it...but in that all so elequent greyspeak. You know, it will totally revitalize your mental capacity to deal with the buisness world etc etc. This is not like my mom, becuase the fact that mom has had so many problems...she is wise. Or at least I thought. Everything that my mom has told me, or showed me about this place...their website...the people who called me...they have no self control. They are a product of someone elses will. You can tell it in their voices...the way they are shocked when you speak with authority...the total lack of real knowledge. The people that called me preceeding the meeting were to say the very least, brainwashed or just fucking stupid. They could not give me a solid reason why I should be going to this thing. None whatsoever. I apologize for my lack of continuity in this post, but I am in dire straits here and I am just trying to spill any info I have on these people in hopes you guys can express some of your stories. What are these people like? What exactly goes on in a forum? From what I have read so far...they make you drudge up stories about your past and relive them. Why are these forums 15 hours long? Whats in an "advanced course"? Are there any positive results? Am I going into a logical warzone with the entire room against me? Should I bring tear gas? :P Please someone save me and my girlfriend!

Aioh,

My first advice is DON’T GO to the Forum. Find any excuses, say you have some other plans, that you are too tired to be in a room from 9am to 12pm 3 days in a row, etc... but don’t go (your mother can get a refund). This will bring up a lot of tension perhaps between you and your mother, and it’s a first sign that something is wrong. This tension is what Landmark creates between those who participate and those who don’t. Then, they make you feel responsible for running “rackets”, for being “non-authentic” and all that. Finally, they offer you a “gift” that is suppose to take all this tension away from you, and this is by participating to the Forum. So in brief, they create the problem (deliberately ... not your mother but LEC), and they offer you no choice but to enroll in their doctrine or suffer.

To ease the tension and to gain some time with your mother, you might say you are “considering” (don’t make any promises) attending the Forum in months from now, so this way you are gaining time to learn about LEC as much as possible. I am sure you will have a lot of support from this Cult Education group right here (you did the rigth thing in posting your letter). I had a recent experience with a person close to me (my girfriend) and I wrote about 10 posts during the past couple of weeks which you may find enlightening (I did my best to elucidate and get rid of my own discomfort).

In summary, LEC is using their participant to “advertise” their product they want to sell (the Forum and other seminars). In doing so, they emphasize the good points but ignore completely the risks associated (like the testimonies in this forum). Any bad publicity about LEC is immediately rejected and considered t be “a racket”, and LEC is all about living free of “rackets”. So, in it’s own logic, LEC creates a conflict inside peoples mind and conflicts between those who participate and those who don’t (this is the destructive part). However, the participants are not allowed to see this because of the very clever and insidious LEC techniques used to “transform” people.

LEC has been officially declared to be a “cult” by many European countries (France among others). It’s very similar to Scientology in it’s structure (pyramidal), and there is no end to the coaching (training, seminars, etc..) needed to live in peace with yourself.

Just stay away, and good luck.

Michael D.

what michael said is good advice. come to this
newsgroup as often as u need, thats what its for.

Thank you so much for the advice...that was my backup plan just incase this was a cult. My girlfriends father gets sick alot and he becomes our saving grace because we will be "looking after him" for that entire weekend. Anyways, my concern really isn't about me anymore...my mom takes care of my little sister whos thirteen and has had all kinds of bad experiences in life making her the prime target for deconstruction, this really worries becuase I have spent most of five years helping her grow mentally and now that she can be so easily taken away from the world to join this fucking sophism im not sure what to do. I can't tear down what they make without knowing how they do it, but I am their PRIME TARGET (White male whos just starting to be successful with a traumatic past). So this next question I ask is...what exactly do they do in the landmark teen forum? Do we have any survivors here to comment on that?

Oh yeah...looking over your post again midonov, my mom said in those exact words that I was "non-authentic" and that "Landmark can help me with that". This infuriates me...they are literally everything I stand against as a philosopher and a human being. They are the EXACT REASON why I don't let anyone read my writing or listen to my music. They bastardize and mutilate peoples thoughts to make their claims. I just feel like theres nothing I can do to proctect my family from these people and that angers me..so much..

Anyways, thank you for making this place. I don't know how I would have faired mentally sideswiped that like that. I thought that my mom (the x-strongest women in the universe) would have told me the truth...I mean good god...shes my mommy :|

Aioh,

I feel very sorry for you and all those who are in a similar situation. I really like your comment about sophism. I think you are absolutely right that this is what they are using, and this is what Plato and Socrates among others have been fighting against all their life. What is infuriating is that in the Harvard Business report, there is a quote from Steve Zaffron, LEC's vice president that says
"The Forum is a return to the practical philosophy of Socrates..."!!!

What a bunch of crap!

As far as your little sister is concerned, I think this is the most dramatic part. To enroll children and teens in such a doctrine is criminal in my opinion (they even have the Forum for kids starting at 8y of age !!!)

However, I think the concept for teens is softer and less traumatic than for adults. My girlfriend (I wrote a lot about her) who is an authentic Landmarkian has a son who did the Landmark Forum when he was only 12yo, and he keeps saying to his mom that he "hates" Landmark! I know he didn't want to do it at 12 (his mom forced him), and luckily for him, he kept his head together (although his mom probably thinks he didn't get 'It"!!!). She keeps telling me she wants her son to do the Forum again, and she says my kids should do it too. But I took a firm stand, and neither she or Landmark will enter my home.

The best way to protect your kid sister is to stay very close to her and to let her know that you will support her no matter what. Ask her if she really wants to do it or not (the Forum). My bet is she will say no, that mom is forcing her. If this is so, tell your mom that it's probably too early for your sister to do the Forum, that it's better if she waits. The best way to deal with your mom is to say NO politely to whatever she asks you to do about Landmark. If this is not possible and if your kid sister has chosen to go to the Forum because she doesn't want to upset her mom, the next best thing would be for you to accompany her and keep her head together during the Forum. But I don't know if this is possible (adults with kids). I think the first solution is the better approach. You and your sister should simply stay away from Landmark and say NO to your mom while remaining close to her. Also, try not to get angry and avoid criticizing or arguing or saying anything bad about Landmark to your mother. She will simply not listen to you and it will only reinforce her new beliefs about LEC (this is a typical cult-like reaction).

I have much more to say, but I have to stop for now. I'll get back to you. I just read the Harvard Report, and I have lots of comments about it to report.


Michael D.

Use Landmark language. Simply say, "I choose not to."

Thank you guys for your thoughtful responses. :D
I did get to my little sister, and she is doing ok, but my mom now HATES ME.

Heres how it all came to pass:
I call my mom and tell her me and my girlfriend can't attend Landmark, she flips out at me, says she doesn't trust me, she doesn't love me (Never in TWENTY YEARS has she said something like that, that is not a product of her own logic) and she is no longer going to pay for college (thats a big uh oh). Her "last request" is for me to call the Landmark forum and say im not going. I know this is a trick, my mom thinks just becuase I have a penis im going to fall over drooling to some relatively attractive sophist with a silky voice. Anyways, fast foward to the phonecall, I call and say I cannot go, the assisstant imediately puts me on hold (im imagining this assistant SPRINTING to the forum leader, her shoving him out of the way and answering with a fake "hiiiii, is everything ok?"), and answers in almost the exact same way I envisioned. This is alright becuase I am expecting this. The forum leader picks up, and tries her hardest to use sophist logic (a rough example is relativism, the bird may be blue to you, but WHAT IS BLUE?) so I counter with this: She says that it will have a profound change in my life, she had already accepted the premise that Landmark is a "positive catalyst" so I asked her to define profound. Startled, she takes about 3 seconds then goes on saying that its as amazing as watching birth. I then explain in logic I can't reiterate (it really hurts to think in stupid, sorry) that there is no reason for me to attend becuase she couldnt give me a good enough reason too. I could feel her melting from this side of the phone...oh it was great! However, I did not win the day. My girlfriend calls and makes the paramount mistake of using girlspeak (sure im still interested, just not right now...ill call you, ok?) to get off the hook. Becuase of this, they use my MOM to try to recruit me into going to an "introduction". I flat out told my mom there that this was sophism and I would have no part in it (this was of course, after she told me she is going to give 60000$ to IBI, an affiliate to LEC) and that I don't think my little sister should either. From that point on she fucking flips, and according to my sister (my mom is too computer illiterate to know I still talk to my little sister on aim) she is STILL flipping out. It's been almost two days.

So heres the trade people:

Landmark gets - My mom, my older sister, my moms estate, and potentially, relucantly...but most likely my little sister.

I struggle for my sanity.

The worst thing is, this single handedly prooves good has lost. The numbers are just too skewed...:\

Aioh,

Hang in there!!! I know this must be very difficult. About Sophism, I think I have identified the fundamental sophism in LEC. It's all about running "rackets". According to LEC definition:

A "racket" is a persistent complaint coupled with a fixed way of being ...
The person running the racket: 1) makes himself or herself right or makes others wrong, 2) dominates others or avoids domination, and/or 3) justifies his or herself, or invalidates others.
The cost associated with running a racket ... 1) loss of love or affinity with others, 2) loss of health and vitality, 3) lack of fulfillment and satisfaction, 4) lack of expression.


According to this definition of a "racket", it is clear to me that your mom is running a "racket" on you to enroll into LEC (making herself right, domination, etc...). But LEC is all about NOT running rackets. I saw that in my girlfriend's behavior also. The adepts of Landmark may get rifd of some of their "rackets" in life, but only to replace it by the "Enrolling people in Landmark" biggest "racket" of all.

This is a profound contradiction in the LEC doctrine, and it makes the Landmarkian go crazy if not completely insane, because they refuse to see it. Then, they get told by their "coaches" that they need more and more coaching in order to be able to "share possibilities" and "enroll" people. But they don't realize the contradiction is in the doctrine itself.

I will try to formalize that in a more logical form, but essentialy it's all aout a "projection" of the doctrine onto itself which makes it inconsistent.

Micheal D.

From Aioh:

[As a precursor to this story, I must say my mom has had a life in which there is no word in english, latin, or italic that can completely describe how bad my mom has had it. Lets just say she was raped and had her best friend burnt to death in front of her by her mother. Anyways, she finds something that is making her happy and successful(Landmark Education). ]



Sadly, for all the success that Landmark and similar cults have with the mildly neurotic and somewhat troubled, the most fierce adherence seems to characterize those with real traumatic or abusive histories. The psychogical tricks - so-called "hooks and levers" - that are designed to capture the more prosaic "defectives," (those who think they need to do something fairly arduous to improve themselves or their lives), act more like chains of psychological bondage when they are used against people who suffer the worst kinds of traumatic memories. Understanding the psychology makes this quite apparent, as those people are far more desperate to find relief, comfort, or solace and are more likely to grasp at straws. Cults, and probably all religions, can and do abuse these people shamelessly. Unfortunately, the snake-oil of relief or obliteration or neutralization of painful memories will always provide business opportunities for predatory scammers. Sad to say but they substitute a more cruel form of abuse combined with exploitation in place of the memories - one which may not show up for years or decades, and, indeed, many times leave the sufferer ignorant of the damage that has been done. Generally speaking, narcissists - and all cults tend to make people more narcissistic - feel little pain or remorse (consciously) for their actions. They reveal themselves in a trail of victims. Likewise, many Landmarkers purchase short-term or superficial relief with their participation. After a while, the hidden costs become too unbearable to contemplate, so they don't. Outsiders are left to ponder the devastation.


[She tells me about it...but in that all so elequent greyspeak. You know, it will totally revitalize your mental capacity to deal with the buisness world etc etc. This is not like my mom, becuase the fact that mom has had so many problems...she is wise. Or at least I thought. Everything that my mom has told me, or showed me about this place...their website...the people who called me...they have no self control. They are a product of someone elses will. You can tell it in their voices...the way they are shocked when you speak with authority...the total lack of real knowledge. The people that called me preceeding the meeting were to say the very least, brainwashed or just fucking stupid.]



Yes, funny how people do take this group so seriously, considering the amateur presentation, silly, fake-sounding anecdotes, cheesy "authority" endorsements, ridiculous, quasi-religious-sounding claims, and robotic parrots who sell the stuff. You wouldn't think anyone would make it past the "introduction," but, amazingly, people are still buying time-shares and still participating in pyramid sales, so there you go. Hypnosis, Neuro-Linguistic-Programming, and all the other sales and persuasion techniques work well enough to keep lots of con-artists in business. And the shame or humiliation of having been duped keeps most victims silent, so it's a self-stoking phenomenon - or a brilliant business model - depending on your perspective.


Ellen

here is another example of landmark breaking down a family.
hang in there and dont let them convince u to take the forum..