Midonov:

You got it!

:(

MD,

Thank you for your legal logic...but what area of American law do you have exoertise but 1st-most, are you a LEC grad?

if you haste LE and your girlfriend wasnyts to become a leader Im
confused as to the point of continuing in this realtionship
Why would you have any desire to be involved with someone that is so into something you hate
Just to add I hate LE too and would run FAR and FAST
from anyone whos mind is ao weaK
that they are suckered into that bizarre twilight zone existance
Unfortunately I was not in the position to run ( financial) when my husnband jouned PD ( similiar to LE )

RUN RUN RUN for your life !!

Quote
ULTAWARE
MD,

Thank you for your legal logic...but what area of American law do you have exoertise but 1st-most, are you a LEC grad?

Ultraware,

I am Canadian, and I don't know the US law. I know from my own experience that I cannot file a complaint in Quebec against any third party (e.g. health practitioner, psychologist, psychiatrist, psychotherapist, guru, etc ...) unless I am myself a victim. Only the client can file a complain, not the family (I had similar problems before with a family member and I had no case). The client has his own free will, and it's a matter of personal freedom. Like I said, I think the family can file a complant only if the victim is declared irresponsible or disabled mentally, then the victim is put under "tutelle" (this is french, I think the english word is supervision - but it has legal implications) and family obtains legal rights over the victim.

As for LEC, no I am not a graduate. I don't need to be. I am comfortable with my credentials and I use my jugment. Remember I have a personal Landmarkian coach very close to me and whos trying to suck me in. Also, I did my homeworks (I went through a pile of documents). Strangely enough, my Landmarkian friend said I should put my judgment aside !?? That means stop thinking and get sucked by LEC. This is not likely to happen with me.

But let me clarify, I am not an expert in US or Canadian laws, so my position may be wrong or inaccurate (law is very complex with many loopholes). If you can file a class action against LEC, I encourage you to do so. I'm only sceptical about the outcome. You have to be prepared for a long and vicious fight because these LEC sharks are figthing for survival and they have the money. Even the world renowed psychologist Margaret Singer ("Cults in our Midst") got sued by LEC and she had to declare publicly that she never said LEC was a cult even though it is clear from her writing that that was her official position. I know there was a lawyer in the US looking for LEC victims in 2002 who was considering a class action against LEC(Paul Wallstrom, Seatle, Washington, wallstrom@mswjse.com) but he was looking for LEC clients who suffered damages - his client had a psychotic breakdown after LEC forum). I don't know about the outcome. Perhaps you could contact him and let us know.

In answer to miriam, thanks for your sound advice. I am taking distances but I explore the possibility (I know this sounds like LEC jargon !?) of keeping her as a friend. Maybe one day she will pop out of it.

Michael D.

Something bizarre happened yesterday. I told my Landmarkian girlfriend over the phone that I was reading "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Singer. She ask who is she ? I said Margaret Singer was a professor emeritus of psychlogy and an expert on cults. I also mentioned that she got sued by Landmark after the publication of the first edition of her book.

She litterally flipped. She bursted into tears saying I was reading that book only to demean her. Her reaction was that of pure fury and despair. I tried to calm her down, saying it's just a book about cults, and asking why she takes it so personal. It took a while before she could listen to me and to accept that I can read the book. But I think she still disapprove. And she will not listen to anything negative about Landmark (or LGATs) coming from that book, as if Margaret Singer is just expressing an "opinion". I personally think the work of Singer is a formidable piece of work from a world class academician having spent 50 yeard on the study of cults. And I admire her work. It's not just an opinion one can toss away just like that.

That was last night. She came to see me this morning and she told me that she coulnd't sleep last night. She said she came "that close" of splitting with me because of what I said (about the book), even though I never said anything negative about LEC. I think her reaction is not normal. My reaction is "What did they do to her ?" I don't know how our relationshp can continue like this, but I'm afraid that if I say I'm leaving her now she will go through a total mental breakdown. She is really fighting demons, and I can see how much she is struggling. On one side she wants to have a great life with me, but on the other side, she doesn't accept my academic point of view about the pros and cons of LGATs and the fact that I don't want to do the Landmark forum. I have decide to seek for professional help for myself as early as next week in order to deal better with the situation. This is getting very serious and I feel somewhat responsible for her.

Michael D.

Hi Michael,

I hope you're reading an edition that contains the material concerning Landmark/est that has been removed from current editions of her book. I believe it's the chapter, "Intruding into the workplace," that you can find here, on Rick Ross's website.


The true evil of Landmark and similarly designed groups is that they use techniques that insert a loyalty and defensiveness of themselves into the consciousness, (and subconsciousness), of many of their followers that takes the place of or supercedes the so-called ego-defenses that were there before the "programming." Most of us have built up over time certain more-or-less neurotic defense mechanisms that protect us from the onslaughts of day-to-day bad news, ego blows, unflattering information, and the usual wear-and-tear, not the mention the stress, terror, or horror of destructive events, catastrophic situations, or overwhelming loss. These function to protect us from information that is or would be difficult to accept full-on and give us, those healthier of us, a little breathing room to adjust or sort out what may be too much for us to handle at the time. Many people who do the Landmark programs emerge with this parasitic "programming" unwittingly defending the group as though it were a part of themselves. They take the criticisms personally. Once this is in place, it is damnnably difficult to dislodge. It may be years before the bits of negative information chip away at the edifice that Landmark erects in the person's mind. One can only hope that the healthier, more skeptical, or more pragmatic part of the person's mind will find a way out of the maze. I'm not sure that remaining, supporting, or protecting them is in their best interests in the long view, unless they sense, in some way, that something is wrong. Her reaction sort of suggests this. I hope this is so, for both your sakes.


Ellen

Ellen,

Speaking from having witnessed "close-up & personal" the things that I did, it fits exactly what you described of my ex and the post LEC being that she became....

I appreciate, always, your angle, and the info that you provide. Keep the faith.... :lol:

PAX

Yes, mindonov, they are fighting internal demons.. so well stated!

When the demons haunt her, the only thing she can do is to lash out at you, because you are bringing up her internal questions. She wants to silence the demons, and so she attacks you. It is wise that you can understand that.

If she surrenders totally to the paradigm, she can be at peace. Questioning the paradigm causes the internal house of cards to collapse; corboy called that existential horror.

It is ugly. You are having a glimpse.

As Elena wrote, defending the group as if it was a part of their personhood... because it has become their core.
This is powerful stuff. Good that you read Singer.
It's as though they are living inside a little cage carried around inside their own head. You can see it; she cannot.

After leaving the group, it takes a long time to rebuild themselves psychologically.

Miriam's experience may have been similar to my own, I agree with her
"RUN RUN RUN for your life !!"
It will get worse if you remain entangled.

Good that you realize you would go crazy living with her; that much I had seen also.
Even living separately, it seeps in - trust me.

Hi,

This is an excerpt from my girlfriend letter trying to get complete with me 3 weeks ago. Some of the material is quite amazing, especially her argument that I have “brainwashed myself” into knowing LEC is bad !

This is how her letter goes. I’ve added some exclamation and question marks (!!?) where it strikes me the most.

---------------------------------------

- “I know what I know about Landmark from my own __ yrs of experiences ... but it seems you prefer to judge Landmark by the opinions/experiences of other people who you do not know to the opinion/experiences of someone who loves you. My commitment to my training at Landmark and the possibilities it makes available to people is not altered and will not be. ... I am committed to a life of what’s possible, not what’s impossible.”

- “Thank you for all the training (!!?) I got from the nearly 6 months we’ve had together and all the conversations we’ve had about this.”

- “It is a shame you are unwilling to even look at how we could make a relationship work but you are determined that it cannot work and I cannot change your opinion and will not try. It seems you would rather have the satisfaction of being right that you should be allowed to oppose what I do and demand I give up something I love, than keep your opinion to yourself (or remain neutral) and have a potentially great relationship with me. There’s nothing wrong with your choice but the latter would probably be more fulfilling.”

- “Maybe Landmark is a cult, maybe it has manipulated my mind and if it is/has, all I see are great results in my life (!!?).”

- “The only thing I’ve failed in was my awkward attempts to share what I’ve gotten from Landmark with you (and anyone else for that matter).”

- “You have filled your head with hours and hours of reading of all the bad experiences people have had with Landmark and you have now brainwashed yourself into “knowing” it is bad.(!!?) You have done to yourself the very thing you were afraid Landmark would do to you and now you are trying to brainwash me with it.”

- “ ...all you accomplished was amassing a mountain of fear.”


- “ ...yes I get animated when I feel I have to defend it with you and I am not interested in having to defend something I love with someone I love.”

- “ ... and I get that you will blame it all on Landmark because you have brainwashed yourself (!!?) so much and you are unwilling to even look at what you yourself have done to contribute to this situation. It is much easier to blame it all on someone or something else.”

- “ I worry for you ...”

- “Yes I’m using my Landmark stuff and I’m only asking you to consider what I’m saying, not like it’s the truth.”

- “It would probably be a good idea to discuss all of this with your psychologist.”
-------------------------------------------------

In answer to that last sentence from her letter above, I actually saw my psychologist today. She didn’t know about LEC, but she knew about LGATs and immediately identified such movements as being cults [sic]. We then went through the history of my short relationship and through the material from the letter above. My psychologist and I agreed the content is manipulative and that it is not possible to have a normal relationship with someone in LEC. My problem essentially is that, although I am a very rational person (which explains why I was able to resists enrollment), I have a sweet spot emotionally, and this is where it can get dangerous (I can be sucked in slowly and gradually with time). She explained to me clearly that this was not a person for me (to which I agree) and that no matter what I say, I will not change her. I will use her advise wisely.

This probably ends this thread and this short episode of my life. Thank you all for your support. Your comments are very helpful and I look forward to read you again.

This is an excerpt from a letter my Landmarkian friend wrote to me after I criticized her participation in Landmark. It goes like this :

------------------------------------
"Maybe Landmark is a cult, maybe it has manipulated my mind and if it is/has, all I see are great results in my life. ... The only thing I’ve failed in was my awkward attempts to share what I’ve gotten from Landmark with you (and anyone else for that matter). ...

You have filled your head with hours and hours of reading of all the bad experiences people have had with Landmark and you have now brainwashed yourself into “knowing” it is bad. You have done to yourself the very thing you were afraid Landmark would do to you and now you are trying to brainwash me with it ... all you accomplished was amassing a mountain of fear.

... and I get that you will blame it all on Landmark because you have brainwashed yourself so much and you are unwilling to even look at what you yourself have done to contribute to this situation. It is much easier to blame it all on someone or something else.

... Yes I’m using my Landmark stuff and I’m only asking you to consider what I’m saying, not like it’s the truth. It would probably be a good idea to discuss all of this with your psychologist.
---------------------------------------

I did discuss it with my psychologist, and we came to the conclusion that this person (Landmarkian) will not change and that any effort to try will be a waste of time. We also concluded that a relationship with someone so much involved in Landmark is not possible (for me).

Of course, the "brainwashing yourself into knowing LEC is bad" is completely absurd. This is because there is a fundamental difference between "educating" someone and "brainwashing" someone. I educated myself into knowing LEC is bad while LEC brainwashes people into thinking LEC is great. That's all they do. Selling an illusion.

Michael D.