My girlfriend is very much involved in LE. She took the Forum for the first more than 4 years ago, and she is now an "Introduction leader". Her graduation was last week - I did'nt go). She now says she wants to become a "seminar leader" and she must meet some objectives of enrolling 31 people before she gets there. Of course, working as an introduction leader or seminar leader is on a voluntary basis, which means she doesn't get paid nor is she an employee of LE, at least officially. As an observer from outside (I never did the Forum and I never will), it is obvious that she is working as a LE representative and selling the Forum and other seminars but she says she "participates".

Her long term project is to become a Forum leader and travel around the world (and get paid ... she's not that stupid) by LE to transform the world and achieve world peace. I think she is a dreamer and an idealistic. Also, I am under the impression (call it insight) that she will never be given the opportunity to become a Forum leader. I think the center manager will want to keep her forever as a volunteer (free manpower) and that she will never make it to the top. I am under the impression that those pulling the strings from above already have their friends and family to lead the Forum and they cash in all the money. Of course she strongly believe the contrary because, to her, the world is full of "possibilities", and it's only our fears that stops us, etc ... which is the LE jargon.

Can anybody tell me if it is possible or not to really become a Forum leader? Or am I being too pessimistic? If possible, how much time, efforts and money needs to be invested before making it to the top?

And by the way, I hate LE.

Thanks.

Michael D.

I believe the "Forum Leader" thing is a pretty much unreachable carrot LE dangles in front of just about everyone who sticks with LE for more than a weekend. My friend and his wife also spoke about becoming Forum leaders (they finally left LE, thank goodness). From what I understand, becoming a Forum leader takes years and years of seminar-attending and signing up tons of people. Plus, Forum leaders, as far as I know, are well overqualified for that position and also well underpaid.

Think of all the thousands upon thousands of people who take LE seminars and compare that number to the very, very few who actually go on to waste their lives as Forum leaders, and I think you'll see it's an almost impossible (and very sad) "goal." As you stated, I believe getting people to hope they'll one day waste their lives as Forum leaders is just a way to keep people hanging on so they'll continue to "volunteer" as much unpaid time as possible.

Glam

Glam,

Thanks for the reply. But tell me, what does it take for someone to leave LE ? You say your friends finaly left LE even though they wanted also to be Forum leaders at some point. Can you explained what happened and how they managed to get out of it? Any convincing arguments to take somebody out of LE mind control?

Michael D.

Becoming a Landmark Forum leader is next to impossible but not completely impossible. I do know one person who after MANY years finally achieved the standards that Landmark sets to become a Landmark Forum Leader.

Most people who are either on staff or who are seminar leaders or Self Expression and Leadership Programme (SELP) leaders generally aspire to being a Landmark Forum leader but you have to achieve some unbelievable targets just to be accepted into the Landmark Forum Leader Programmes.

When I was at staff conference one year I would estimate 80% of those present (all paid staff and volunteer seminar leaders and SELP Leaders) put their hands up to the question of "who wants to become a Landmark Forum Leader?"

Most people quit before they even get there because the pressure and way they are treated by "LEC" squashes any hope they may have once had.

When I went on staff I was told "This job is too big for one person - you can't do it by yourself" All staff members jobs are like this, Yet to get into the Forum leader training programme they must be sucessful in their roles (plus many other things)

Seminar leaders must lead sucessfully to three (I think) seminars before they can become accredited semiar leaders. from their they have to lead sucessfully to more seminars to be considered sucessful. They also then have to go onto staff and manage a centre sucessfully for 2 years. (this is all from memory so I may have it wrong now) Managing a centre is incredibly hard as generally they are extreemly understaffed, their paid staff have to recruit and maintain full volunteer teams to do their jobs. The manager has to "cause" their staff members to be sucessful.

In the time I was on staff I was sucessful in parts of my job but mostly not. I struggled to keep my assisting teams full (mostly I had only ten people when i needed 80) and I know that this was normal for most staff members.

Unless your friend is unbelievably commited to this, in all likelyhood they will not suceed. I have watched so many seminar leaders come and go in the centre I worked in. Some were seminar leaders for 4 years and then just quit after the pressure got to much.

Seminar leaders are coached non stop by the centre manager, the other staff members, the landmark forum leader responsible for their country, any landmark forum leaders who come to the center to lead a course. they get coached by other seminar leaders from their region. And its always about how they are going to register more people into the landmark forum. If they register people they are a star but if they have a month where they dont go well they will be pushed and pushed and pushed non stop

Glam has really hit the whole thing on the nose with the statement

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believe getting people to hope they'll one day waste their lives as Forum leaders is just a way to keep people hanging on so they'll continue to "volunteer" as much unpaid time as possible

Your friend will probably work this all out at some point, unfortunately they will probably be used up by landmark Education first.

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But tell me, what does it take for someone to leave LE ? You say your friends finaly left LE even though they wanted also to be Forum leaders at some point. Can you explained what happened and how they managed to get out of it? Any convincing arguments to take somebody out of LE mind control?

I wish I could tell you. I believe my friends simply had lives that were too busy and too full to fit Landmark's ridiculous demands into their schedule. When my friend was first recruited, he was temporarily out of work. But once he got back to his job and family, I just don't think he had the time LE demanded.

I wish I could say I helped in some way, but all I was able to do was educate myself about cults and mind control enough to maintain the friendship. I'm guessing it must be much harder to deal with when the person involved is a girlfriend, someone you're very close to.

So I'd recommend reading as much as possible about mind control, how it works, and how to communicate with someone who's still in the grip of LEC.

Glam

Sonnie_dee,

I welcome your inputs. This is very enlightening and I know better what to expect now. But tell me , do you think this is the kind of pressure that can lead someone to depression or suicide? I reported in another post about the suicide of an Introduction Leader at Landmark about 6 months ago in Toronto, but of course my girlfriend says LEC has nothing to do with it (and she will not give me any more details). But the way you describe all the pressure that is being put on LEC volunteers to be accepted, applaused and to become a stars is enough to go sick or crazy.

It would be interesting to look at the depression and suicide rates at LEC and compare to the rates of the "normal and healthy" population knowing that all LEC Forum attendees are carefully selected as "people that are well" according to their registration form.

Micheal D.

I believe how Landmark operates and treats it staff/senior assisting members is enough to force people into a deep depression and possible suicidal tendencies.

It is very scary.

Landmark will never take responsibility for anyones mental health, they will always find some way to show they were in no way involved with any thing negative like suicide or mental breakdowns.

Staff are trained to question participants, who state on their information forms that they have been on some medication or in therapy, about their mental health and then recommend their non participation.

However they push normal people to the edge. I remember sitting at my desk many times crying just because I was so tired and had so many things to do and no more time.

Landmark forum leaders would come into the office before a course and make my life a misery. Several were pushing the boundry of acceptable behaviour in my opinion and I believe if I had seen things the way I do now I would have had just cause to take LEC to employment court.

Some landmark leaders were abusive and used derogatory terms towards me and others at the office, Seminar leaders and staff received the worst of it. we would have meetings where other assisting people would not see what went on.. the "coaching" we received.

The regional manager was often abrupt and pushing on abusive in the way she spoke to staff. We "HAD" to meet the targets, we had to register so many people in the landmark forum.. once in the landmark forum we had to get so many people into the next course.

Having said all that people who are not seminar leaders or staff or senior ILP leaders are not shown this side. they get coached but on a different level. By the time you are at a senior level, you accept the coaching regardless of how you feel. how you feel is what you need to create a possibly from (in landmark speak)

Sonnie Dee is spot on! The "coaching" they subject people to is enough to force you into a major state of depression of you fall for their manipulation tactics. As an IL assisting, I remember seeing staff members in tears and on the brink. As I continued to lead and get trained to lead to enough people to be in the seminar leader's program, the abusiveness that they called "coaching" got waaaay out of hand. I was told that enough people among my family and friends had not participated and that's why I was having "breakdowns." No, I'm having breakdonws because you and your cronie idiots keep calling and badgering me to do another friggen agreement when what I need to do is earn money to pay my mortgage. This is all why I distanced myself from the organization.

And Michael--props to you for staying in a relationship with someone who is so involved in Landmark. YOu're a brave man! The last relationship I had with someone i met thru landmark was an utter nightmare. Let's just say he's knee deep in the thick of the manipulation of the organization and is engaged to a staff member. I'll spare you the details.

Hi everyone,

To give you an update, let me tell you that I came to the conclusion that it is barely impossible to be in a relationship with someone in Landmark.

I had a discussion earlier this week with that girlfriend of mine (maybe we can stay friend, but certainly not lovers anymore and make long terms plans under these conditions), and this is what she said. She said she agrees that I don’t need to do the Landmark Forum and that she will never ask me to do it again (sight!). But two weeks ago, when she came back from a “coaching” session because I was resisting her “enrolment”, she said she understood from her coaching session that she was not communicating well enough and that was why I didn’t want to do the Landmark Forum. NO I said. It’s not because you don’t communicate “IT” well enough, I just don’t want to do it, period! The next day, she promised she wouldn’t bother me with Landmark for ... 3 months!!! I said NO!. Not now, not in 3 months!

So, that was two weeks ago. Now, earlier this week, she finally promised she will never ask me again to do the Landmark Forum. Do I trust her? Yes. I think she means it. Do I trust the Center manager that is coaching her? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I am convinced that, at a later time, a “coaching session” will pump her up in saying again and again that I should do the Landmark forum, that it’s because she’s not communicating well enough, that she takes the responsibility if I don’t like Landmark, etc, etc etc... You know the story. So that’s it for the pressure tactics.

But the most dramatic part is this. Earlier this week, she told me all she wants from me is to listen to her when she wants to “share” her new possibilities and what she is discovering for herself through Landmark. It’s all about being open to communication, accepting the views of others with compassion and respect, etc ... This is all very nice and beautiful, and I think it’s a very valuable attitude people should have between one another. But the blatant contradiction comes when it’s time for me to “share” my concerns about Landmark after reading about all the testimonies of people who’s lives have been destroyed, the suicides and the killing (in France, this guy who murdered his mother after being asked to come up with an “unreasonable project” for the next weekend), the mind manipulation tactics, etc ...

As soon as open my mouth to say something about Landmark that is not on the positive side, she goes completely crazy and starts yelling “I will not listed to this ...”, I don’t want to hear about this ...” “ I know all that ... “ , “you only want to dominate me...” and the punch line “If this is your attitude, we don’t have a relationship”. So, who is trying to dominate who here ? I see her reaction as if I was blaspheming her religion or God! And this convinces me more and more that Landmark is nothing but a destructive cult. Actually, she even said to me, “OK. It is a cult, But it’s the best cult on earth”!!!

What I understand from this is if you have a relationship with someone in Landmark, communication flows only one way. She possesses the truth about Landmark, and I don’t know nothing. And I am not given the “permission to talk”. She have the distinctions, the techniques, and the control over any situation. Under such circumstances, I think a relationship is not possible, which is very regrettable.

Addendum:

While I was taking a break before sending this letter to the forum, she called me. It’s exactly what I was expecting. She got “coached” yesterday by the center manager, and the conclusion is the difficulties we are having is NOT about Landmark!!! She say it’s about the way I talk about landmark, and the way I talk about everything else. She tries to convince me my attitude toward her and my children (I wish se would leave them out o this, I have the best kids on earths and they love me) is domination, and that even if she leaves Landmark (something she say she will never do), we will fight about something else (I think it's normal for a couple to fight over sometig from time to time, isn't it?). So it’s not about Landmark (of course, Landmark is the best cult on earth!!!) I said I don’t agree, and that the center manager put that in her head and that she is under his influence. She objected vehemently, said she didn’t want to listen to this and concluded that we are finished. I can finally rest and start recover from this experience. And I hate Landmark.

You will never be able to voice objections about Landmark to someone who is participating fully in it. they are "coached" over and over about how your objections are a racket or what ever else. I remember losing friends over their objections with me saying they were being closed minded (it was never me of course) The friends I kept were the ones who wisely declined to participate and asked me to refrain from bringing it up and at the same time stopped trying to show me the negative. I was not at a place where I was going to accept anything negative anyway.

As for the coaching she is receiving from the centre manager, everything you have said sounds so familier, the number of IL's and others who have received this kind of coaching is unbelievable.

When I was in ILP (Introduction Leader Programme) one of the coaches had just got engaged, to someone who was not and would not ever participate in Landmark.

He was coached (bullied) into "communicating" his possibility with her and enrolling her into the Landmark Forum, when she refused, he heard the line of how can you be in a relationship with someone who doesn't support you!

I know they went through a very tough time and did almost break up (a common occurance with relationships where one is in landmark) Luckily for them, the coach walked away from landmark and kept his relationship but I have to say this would be the unusual response. Usually the relationship breaks down.

I am really sorry to hear about your relationship. Just try and remember it is not really her that is doing this.. it is Landmark, hopefully she will realise this before she looses more friends and family because of how she is acting