Can anyone tell me if the following behaviour is a product of Landmark philosophy?

My two sisters-in-law became involved with Landmark Education about 10 years ago. The younger one (whom I shall call "Younger") has become a volunteer facilitator, the other (whom I shall call "Older") has gone on to do "graduate" courses and may/may not be a volunteer facilitator.

Younger has DELIBERATELY provoked my husband and me for the last 10 years over a sensitive issue. Finally, I told her off. She was upset as it was done in front of Older and Older's daughter.

Older took charge of the conversation, even though she has NEVER been party to this conflict and did NOT seek to clarify what had gone on, saying that Younger was not provoking us, but just "discussing her ideas" (not true). In other words, she fabricated a new "reality" in front of Younger, and by the time Older had finished, both she and Younger had created a new story about what had happened between us and Younger over the past 10 years, and they were both in agreement that that is what happened (even though it hadn't).

I have read some personal stories about Landmark Forums, and think this sounds like the way in which facilitators take charge of conversations, and how they reject facts.

Next, younger left in a self-pitying huff, only to return in a blinding rage. She was violent and my husband had to restrain her.

Younger and Older have now accused my husband of assaulting Younger (the Police disagree). My husband is one of 7 children, and the family has split over this incident.

Younger has also destoryed other extended family relationships over the past 2 years.

Does this sound like Landmark? My husband feels it is out of character for Older to lack integrity like this.

Cheers.
Right2Refuse (from New Zealand, near Australia, South Pacific)
:confused:

Thank you for posting.

This personality disorder mirrors what my ex-girlfriend was doing during our last month before breaking up.

I have to state (again) we were beautifully in love up to Christmas. She had graduated from the workshop training here in Los Angeles, which is called MITT (same as LIFESPRING and LANDMARK).

The owner of the company targeted my ex to isolate her and push her away from me.

The behavioral changes were radical.

Some hallmark characteristics are: Very argumentative over the most pettiest of things. Making up fights. She will accuse me of "xyz". Then in couples counseling she will say I accused her of "xyz". It was bizarre. Counseling was extremely frustrating and unsuccessful because she constantly retold untruths to fit a new version. Lastly, she would make herself an aggressor then pleads an emotional breakdown when you asked her to look at her hypercritical behavior.

Very bizarre. For a while I was getting headaches walking on "egg shells". I truly thought I was imagining this at times.

I am not sure of the behavioral or psychological reasons this happens. I want to find out.

These trainings are dangerous. I lost someone I loved to them.

My therapist who is trained in cults says that people who are drawn heavily to these trainings have some serious personality disorders to begin with. That there is a need for "them" to find a certain structure to life that they otherwise do not have and therefore they will create truths in order to preserve the structure. Preserving the structured world comes at all costs.

I am sorry you are going through this.

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure if I'm meant to feel pleased or angry at this point. I had a hunch that it was starting to look a little like Landmark.

I'm only guessing, but I have the feeling that there will be an attempt to reconstruct their (my husband's) family without the inlaws they dislike (ie, the ones like me who won't put up with the rubbish).

I had this feeling before this violent incident. Younger has said a number of things that have led me to believe she intends to try to drive a wedge between family members and the inlaws.

I'm one of 4 that I think Younger's/they're likely to target. (I don't believe my husband was the target, but that Younger expected him just to sacrifice me rather than restrain her, and she's angry he didn't conform.) One - Older's husband - had already gone before this incident. Two more to go, I suspect.

Anyone got any suggestions on how to deal with Landmarkers? I wrote to the extended family trying to explain what happened. It hasn't made much difference in terms of what happened here, but maybe it will be harder for them to ignore if/when it happens again.

Cheers,
Right2Refuse
:confused:

To anyone out there who has had a bad experience on the Forum I am sorry about that and I can't really say a thing to change that. This message is for anyone who has heard bad press which might stop them looking at it for themselves. All i can say is that I did it 4 years ago and it is one of the most valuable expereinces I have had. It took me 5 years to do it because I was so put off by the stange people at the intros...if you end up like that you can stick it...kindof thing. I finally did it just to prove my friend that it was a load of rubbish. I was humbled. For years I had thought my friend a bit of a freak for being involved in it and when I did it I realised how utterly straightforward it all was, and yet what a difference it can make in your life. I mean for me fundamental shifts occured which have stayed with me. I am about to complete a degree which I have managed to fund entirely myself...I was turned down for funding as I had been living overseas.This is just an example of one concrete result....there are many more....ability to make decisions, ability to not be upset by other people's responses to me(of course I still am when it matters most)but I just have this ability not there pre forum to be clearer about what is actually going on in a situation. I live a full life which I love. I am sure my life would not be as it is today if I hadn't done that course. I have not done many courses there(as there are several but i can assure you if their agenda was about making money they would be poor at it as the courses are comparable to any other kind of course very cheap) but when I do occasionally I sometimes encounter problems regarding particular people there....but is this not how it is in life? Some peole you like and some you like less. Nobody is perfect and some are plain irritating, Forum graduates or not/Christians or Atheists, Muslims/non muslims....my point= people are people. I am so glad I did not in the end allow my judgements on people(which of course i still do-i am a human) I met at the intro nights put me off doing that course. If you are looking for the meaning of life or for God....you will not find that on the Forum. If however you are looking to examine your life and how you are living it then you should go and take a look...I am more than glad that I did. You know the expression"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" Well yes inevitably the Landmark education has its bathwater but you can still get to hold the baby, but you have to take a look in the crib first. :)

Landmark Education, the Forum, and its previous incarnation EST (Erhard Seminar Training) has a deeply troubled history, which is well-documented through substantial and repeated bad press, complaints and litigation.

Anyone considering involvement with this organization in any way shape or form, should read about the group carefully and in-depth from numerous sources before becoming involved.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also, historically there seem to be inherent problems with mass marathon training programs like the Forum.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Based upon the level of complaints I have received and continue to receive, I would not recommend Landmark or its courses to anyone under any circumstances.

It is not necessary to experience something first-hand to draw meaningful conclusions and form an opinion. Obviously, consumers and researchers do so constantly.

Landmark's "positive results" are essentially anecdotal stories based upon subjective experience and/or personal testimonials.

I am not aware of any scientific study, which has been peer reviewed and published, that objectively measures and verifies results regarding any program presented by Landmark Education.

Landmark is a for-profit privately owned company. The income from this enterprise has made its founder Werner Erhard a very wealthy man. He lives comfortably now in the Cayman Islands and Landmark pays him licensing fees.

Landmark collects many millions of dollars each year and has proven to be a very lucrative money making venture.

Rick Ross
[www.ricksross.com]

There has been a scientific study underataken by the Talent Organisation (put a search engine on it to get the webb address. )What is wrong with a company making money?.... Is not the entire western world built upon such a basic way of operating. I am not interseted in the fact that the founder has got rich off it. Bill Gates and Richard Branson have got rich off me buying software and cd's but those things have brought me great pleasure and came at quite a low price. The forum works out at about £4.60 per hour....about $11 per hour I think. My driving lessons cost me $ 30 an hour, Italien lessons $27 an hour. Everything costs. Plenty make money out of providing services/products. Why should that be so sinister? Quite a low price for having the tools to create a life that I love living. As for recommendations....apparently the Koran is an amazing book, my Muslim friends recommend I read it...maybe I will one day but I cannot recommend it to you as I have not as this point in my life had any direct experience of it. So I shall remain silent until I am equipped with the authority of experience. The Forum I have experienced and I recommend it to anyone, although you must decide for yourself and not do it under duress. Look at what this site has to say and at their site "Lanmark education.com" and decide for yourself. Reviews and complaints are utterly subjective....as is mine here....so dare to look for yourself. There is something of real enduring value available in my opinion iout of participating in the Forum.It was the cheapest educational experience I have ever come across-the possibility of 3 days + £275 = having a life you love. You do the maths - what have you got to lose?

Despite subjective opinions based upon "experience" regarding Landmark there is an objective historical record.

Again, there is not a "sceintific study" to support any of the claims made by Landmark or its grauduates regarding any positive and lasting benefit, which has been proven through peer reviewed scientifically supported research.

What have you got to lose? Well, maybe quite a bit.

There have been mental breakdowns and personal injuries associated with Landmark.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also read the experiences of journalists and others who have completed the Forum and want to warn the public about it. There accounts are certainly authoritative.

Obviously, there are support groups and community programs available for free without the accompanying controversy or risk.

There are also professionals trained and credentialed to assist people with specific problems through counseling and treatment. And they are most often accountable to boards, supervision and licensing.

With so many alternatives through reputable institutions, community resources and professionals why take the risk?

Obviously Landmark isn't the only option for personal growth and self improvement.

Rick Ross
[www.culteducation.com]

I read this man's post and it is obvious from his syntax that he lacks clear and critical thinking. That is what LANDMARK likes.

A good plant, I suppose.

The scientific proof as well as the personal accounts of the damage from these trainings is overwhelming.

What's wrong with making a profit?

Well, nothing on an ethical scale if you are fair about your intended purpose and you do not take "unfair advantage" of another person. Truly the lost souls in these trainings are the most unsophisticated. To manipulate people's minds through extremely stressful training exercises that are designed to promote a physiological level of response that allows you to bond with a leader whose "endgame" is to sell you into the next level of training - this is not only unethical and it should be criminal. It is tantamount to filling a closed off room with a nerve gas that induces impaired judgment and euphoria so you they can have you sign your checkbook without thinking.

I have taken the trainings. I felt the "highs". And I observed. The last day was the "closing". Get all of into the next level, which will cost an extra 1G. The way they presented it through group conformity, bait and switch, ostracism, testimonials, reward and punishment - it was one helluva show! The end result (as they like to say): You were signed up for a "post" interview where some stooges bagged on you to spend more money for more training.

Let us fight these companies.

You said:

<<Older took charge of the conversation, even though she has NEVER been party to this conflict and did NOT seek to clarify what had gone on, saying that Younger was not provoking us, but just "discussing her ideas" (not true). In other words, she fabricated a new "reality" in front of Younger, and by the time Older had finished, both she and Younger had created a new story about what had happened between us and Younger over the past 10 years, and they were both in agreement that that is what happened (even though it hadn't).

I have read some personal stories about Landmark Forums, and think this sounds like the way in which facilitators take charge of conversations, and how they reject facts.
Next, younger left in a self-pitying huff, only to return in a blinding rage. She was violent and my husband had to restrain her.>>

Damned ESTholes & forum freaks! My dad was an old German and an ex cop. I know what he would done, and I would too:

Grab both by the scruff of the neck or the arm (none too gently I should add) and literally boot them in the ass out the front door.
Anybody tried that sh-- in my house and they'd really get what for and damn the consequences.

They are both parasites, and the above is equivalent of the Orkin man coming over to fumigate the inf-EST-ation. Deep down they are both insecure cowards who have to make up "stories" to deal with reality. Neither one would have the courage face you one on one. Make it clear them that they are persona non grata at your house in such phraseology that even boneheads like them will get it. Get a restraining order if necessary.

It REALLY ANGERS and SICKENS me how LEC has twisted the excellent psychological methods of rational emotive behavior therapy and cognitive behavior therapy to use them in essentially reverse order to manufacture an irrational response to a real situation. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the methods were meant for. Thus landmark via their "stories" essentially tricks the newly minted forum freak into self manufacturing a mood disorder where there was none before. SICK TWISTED PARASITES all of them!!! ABSOLUTELY CRIMINAL!!! These LEC should be kooks darted and put in straight jackets in perpetuity.


Karl

That was an interesting analysis Karl.

Thanks.

Very good.

It makes me want to learn more about psychological aspects of dynamics of these trainings.

I hate them too.

I use to love my trainers. Took pictures with them, etc. LIKE THEY WERE MOVIE STARS! Human pigs. That is how I feel now. They see an opportunity for huge cash and walk over people to grab it. They're easily making 6 figures from people who barely have the money or a job.

"Getting a life" is big business. Like I said before you can understand how the Nazification of Germany took place dursing the 30's and 40's. Same people, different uniforms.