tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
magpie
()
Date: October 14, 2010 01:48AM
If you know someone that is or was heavily involved in landmark can you share the marked differences in them? Do some people remain relatively the same while others become completely different? Do they argue constantly? do they spout weird shit like knowledge means nothing then get very twisted when told that is bullshit? I wish this place was a bit busier but I hope some people can give some examples.
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
reptar
()
Date: October 24, 2010 06:59AM
Magpie,
That pretty much sums up my experience with people suckered into Landmark. There's a sort of vacuousness, dull and tired look, a sort of smugness that they know something that you don't (even if, like myself, have been conned into the Forum), conversations that mean absolutely nothing, a disinterest in current affairs or even friends' news.
Sorry, I don't want to discuss the possibility of ending up a worn out, fatigued, delusional automaton!
Another bad thing - someone who wouldn't even used to volunteer to do the dishes is now willing to do full time volunteer work for Landmark.
That pretty much sums up my experience with people suckered into Landmark. There's a sort of vacuousness, dull and tired look, a sort of smugness that they know something that you don't (even if, like myself, have been conned into the Forum), conversations that mean absolutely nothing, a disinterest in current affairs or even friends' news.
Sorry, I don't want to discuss the possibility of ending up a worn out, fatigued, delusional automaton!
Another bad thing - someone who wouldn't even used to volunteer to do the dishes is now willing to do full time volunteer work for Landmark.
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
NotEnlightened
()
Date: November 13, 2010 03:40PM
My boss is a Landmarker. He talks as if he is some kind of source of wisdom, as if he knows better than other people, as if he knows how to create his life as opposed to all the other people who don't know. He tries to invite everyone who he comes in contact with the attend an introduction to Landmark. He talks in strange manners. He uses the word create in strange ways.
He buys into all of the logic. If a child is raped, they created it. He's put thousands into the seminars, volunteers for free, and has signed up friends and family. He paid for someone else to go when he cornered them into saying it was because of the money they didn't want to go. Now he's bugging them to pay him back. That said, he was already a total new-ager type before joining, so I don't think he's changed much. He claims that he has. I've only noticed him becomming more dismissive of others views and evangelical since I've known him.
He is truly a well-meaning sincere individual. He wants to do well and good in the world and help others, and Landmark has completely hijacked this from him. Now, all roads need to pass through Landmark in his mind. If he weren't so annoying I would feel really bad for him. One thing is clear though - I don't think there is anything I could do to help him out, and as he is the owner of the business I work at, I'm not going to even try to enlighten him as to the forces that have him ensnared, or how he appears to someone who isn't in his world.
While he talks a lot about taking responsibility for everything in his life, who do you think he blames when things don't go right at the business? If there aren't customers there and the employees stop to catch their breath or talk even for 10 seconds, he claims there isn't anyone there because we created that reality. If we were preparing for more people instead of talking the people would be there.
In short, he's a nut, but that's what drew him into Landmark as much as what Landmark made him as far as I can tell. Landmark has just given him a certain direction to pour money and people into. If it wasn't that, it probably would've been something else.
As far as Landmark and his invitations go, if he seemed like someone I wanted to emulate I might've considered it at one point. But he doesn't seem like he has anything I'm interested in, he doesn't seem to be anywhere I want to be so to speak. He's one of their leaders. His creepy evangelism and smug attitude has done more to turn me off to Landmark than anything I could ever have found on this site.
He buys into all of the logic. If a child is raped, they created it. He's put thousands into the seminars, volunteers for free, and has signed up friends and family. He paid for someone else to go when he cornered them into saying it was because of the money they didn't want to go. Now he's bugging them to pay him back. That said, he was already a total new-ager type before joining, so I don't think he's changed much. He claims that he has. I've only noticed him becomming more dismissive of others views and evangelical since I've known him.
He is truly a well-meaning sincere individual. He wants to do well and good in the world and help others, and Landmark has completely hijacked this from him. Now, all roads need to pass through Landmark in his mind. If he weren't so annoying I would feel really bad for him. One thing is clear though - I don't think there is anything I could do to help him out, and as he is the owner of the business I work at, I'm not going to even try to enlighten him as to the forces that have him ensnared, or how he appears to someone who isn't in his world.
While he talks a lot about taking responsibility for everything in his life, who do you think he blames when things don't go right at the business? If there aren't customers there and the employees stop to catch their breath or talk even for 10 seconds, he claims there isn't anyone there because we created that reality. If we were preparing for more people instead of talking the people would be there.
In short, he's a nut, but that's what drew him into Landmark as much as what Landmark made him as far as I can tell. Landmark has just given him a certain direction to pour money and people into. If it wasn't that, it probably would've been something else.
As far as Landmark and his invitations go, if he seemed like someone I wanted to emulate I might've considered it at one point. But he doesn't seem like he has anything I'm interested in, he doesn't seem to be anywhere I want to be so to speak. He's one of their leaders. His creepy evangelism and smug attitude has done more to turn me off to Landmark than anything I could ever have found on this site.
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
ROZZANNE
()
Date: November 29, 2010 03:27PM
I have family involved in a similar group called MJB SEMINARS and the changes in relationship are quite marked.
Now that I have firmly stated my reasons why I will never attend one of their Seminars the catpoo really hit the fan so to speak.
I have had numerous friends and several family members who are all interrelated in their attatchment to MJB, contacting me via phone and email to blast me with abusive comments accusing me of negativity, fear, unsupportive, "hurting" the MJB'ers, acting like a spoilt tantrum chucker, etc etc.
Why?
Because I clearly and respectfully stated the reasons why I could not be supportive of their newfound ideas.
I was quite shocked at the reaction from them as they had kept telling me how much the teachings of Mitch J Behan had "Transformed their life" for the better.
I do not see any more maturity or higher self in the way they have reacted.
It is as if I thwarted their plans to add my scalp to the hunting list?
Was it on their list of "to do's".
What a hissy fit they threw just because I operated my right to make decisions about my own life, and told them in a clear and concise way in love.
I was taunted with "Your judging without seeing". "Your acting out of fear" "Your jumping to conclusions without any proof".
I have researched all the literature, recorded all the quotes and conversations for future reference and studied what was said, and what was referred to. ie reading materials recommended by Mitch to his followers.
I have researched on the net, and contacted other people who have been to MJB Seminars in the past, and heard what they had to say.
From all information I have gathered, MJB is so similar to Landmark/Scientology(minus the aliens)/Dr DeMartini/ EST, that I want nothing to do with it.
That is my right to make my decision as an intelligent free thinking adult.
What a bombshell that was to the MJB'ers.
Now I am the world's worst and all communication is ordered to cease forthwith! Cut off! Do not communicate anymore!!!
Other family members have been carefully canvassed by the MJB'ers as to wether they(other family members) know what is going on, and wether I have talked to them about it.
I am portrayed as a somewhat whacky, drama seeking, meddling, troublemaker, fanatic.
Where did all the enlightened, improved, higher "educated", aware, Light and Love suddenly go?
Now that I have firmly stated my reasons why I will never attend one of their Seminars the catpoo really hit the fan so to speak.
I have had numerous friends and several family members who are all interrelated in their attatchment to MJB, contacting me via phone and email to blast me with abusive comments accusing me of negativity, fear, unsupportive, "hurting" the MJB'ers, acting like a spoilt tantrum chucker, etc etc.
Why?
Because I clearly and respectfully stated the reasons why I could not be supportive of their newfound ideas.
I was quite shocked at the reaction from them as they had kept telling me how much the teachings of Mitch J Behan had "Transformed their life" for the better.
I do not see any more maturity or higher self in the way they have reacted.
It is as if I thwarted their plans to add my scalp to the hunting list?
Was it on their list of "to do's".
What a hissy fit they threw just because I operated my right to make decisions about my own life, and told them in a clear and concise way in love.
I was taunted with "Your judging without seeing". "Your acting out of fear" "Your jumping to conclusions without any proof".
I have researched all the literature, recorded all the quotes and conversations for future reference and studied what was said, and what was referred to. ie reading materials recommended by Mitch to his followers.
I have researched on the net, and contacted other people who have been to MJB Seminars in the past, and heard what they had to say.
From all information I have gathered, MJB is so similar to Landmark/Scientology(minus the aliens)/Dr DeMartini/ EST, that I want nothing to do with it.
That is my right to make my decision as an intelligent free thinking adult.
What a bombshell that was to the MJB'ers.
Now I am the world's worst and all communication is ordered to cease forthwith! Cut off! Do not communicate anymore!!!
Other family members have been carefully canvassed by the MJB'ers as to wether they(other family members) know what is going on, and wether I have talked to them about it.
I am portrayed as a somewhat whacky, drama seeking, meddling, troublemaker, fanatic.
Where did all the enlightened, improved, higher "educated", aware, Light and Love suddenly go?
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
reptar
()
Date: November 29, 2010 06:25PM
You are definitely making the right decision not to get involved with them. I hope you manage somehow to extricate your family from them. I'll definitely be on the look out for them.
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
sarina286
()
Date: June 20, 2011 10:57PM
I did the MJB seminar on Relationships and You. I nearly didn't because of this site and what I read on it. I am glad that I went with my heart and completed it because if I didn't I would have missed out on one of the most amazingly wonderful experiences of my life.
I finally feel at peace with myself and love myself for who I am... something I have never been able to do in my lifetime.
Until you do MJB and stick it out properly.. don't knock it. Mitch and Emilia are wonderful people who have been through hell in their lives too. As for not having qualifications .. I've been to qualified people and they have never been able to help me like Mitch has.
I finally feel at peace with myself and love myself for who I am... something I have never been able to do in my lifetime.
Until you do MJB and stick it out properly.. don't knock it. Mitch and Emilia are wonderful people who have been through hell in their lives too. As for not having qualifications .. I've been to qualified people and they have never been able to help me like Mitch has.
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 21, 2011 02:02AM
sarina286:
Your post reads like an ad for this company and its products.
"Don't knock it, until you've done it and stuck it out until the end"?
Hardly.
You don't have to drive drunk or smoke ciggarettes to know its not a good thing.
Research matters. And anyone considering buying a product, such a s a training seminar, can do a background check before laying out their cash and participating in something that might be potentially unsafe.
Large group awareness training (LGAT) or "mass marathon training" like MJB has a deeply troubled history that should cause anyone concern. LGATs like Landmark Education/EST, Lifespring and Sterling Institute of Relatiionship have been the subject of critical news reports. Personal injury lawsuits have also been filed against LGATs by former participants that claimed they were hurt by the training.
A paper written by a psychologist illustrates some of the inherent problems frequently observed within LGATs.
See [www.culteducation.com]
13 liabilities that can observed within most LGATs or mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
They lack clearly defined responsibility.
They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
Many LGATs seems to rely upon what can be seen as "coercive persuasion".
See [www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
The use of an organized peer group
Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:
Control of communication
Emotional and behavioral manipulation
Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
Obsessive demands for confession
Agreement that the ideology is faultless
Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
The results of LGATs are subjective. That is, people feel they have received benefits, but there has never been a peer reviewed published study in a credible academic journal, which has demonstrated objective scientifically measurable results and/or benefits over a period of years following such training. Objective results might include a lower divorce rate, improved grades in school, increased income, lowered need for professional counseling or prescribed medication for stress and anxiety amongst past participants.
Before just jumping in upon the advice of a friend, family member or co-worker pitching such training, it is important to do the research on LGATs generally and the LGAT specifically being promoted.
There are meaningful and less risky alternatives to LGATs, such as counseling provided by a licensed professional (e.g. marriage and family therapist), continuing education at an accredited college or university, job training, business school or mentoring by a business professional, support groups for particular problems and/or pastoral counseling for those attached to a church.
Most LGATs have little if any meaningful accountability, unlike the aforementioned resouces, which are typically licensed, regulated and/or accredited. In fact many LGATs expect participants to sign some sort of waiver, essentially relinquishing the right to claim a personal injury or have a personal injury trial in court before a jury.
Being expected to sign such a waiver should be a warning flag in my opinion.
Your post reads like an ad for this company and its products.
"Don't knock it, until you've done it and stuck it out until the end"?
Hardly.
You don't have to drive drunk or smoke ciggarettes to know its not a good thing.
Research matters. And anyone considering buying a product, such a s a training seminar, can do a background check before laying out their cash and participating in something that might be potentially unsafe.
Large group awareness training (LGAT) or "mass marathon training" like MJB has a deeply troubled history that should cause anyone concern. LGATs like Landmark Education/EST, Lifespring and Sterling Institute of Relatiionship have been the subject of critical news reports. Personal injury lawsuits have also been filed against LGATs by former participants that claimed they were hurt by the training.
A paper written by a psychologist illustrates some of the inherent problems frequently observed within LGATs.
See [www.culteducation.com]
13 liabilities that can observed within most LGATs or mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
They lack clearly defined responsibility.
They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
Many LGATs seems to rely upon what can be seen as "coercive persuasion".
See [www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
The use of an organized peer group
Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:
Control of communication
Emotional and behavioral manipulation
Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
Obsessive demands for confession
Agreement that the ideology is faultless
Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
The results of LGATs are subjective. That is, people feel they have received benefits, but there has never been a peer reviewed published study in a credible academic journal, which has demonstrated objective scientifically measurable results and/or benefits over a period of years following such training. Objective results might include a lower divorce rate, improved grades in school, increased income, lowered need for professional counseling or prescribed medication for stress and anxiety amongst past participants.
Before just jumping in upon the advice of a friend, family member or co-worker pitching such training, it is important to do the research on LGATs generally and the LGAT specifically being promoted.
There are meaningful and less risky alternatives to LGATs, such as counseling provided by a licensed professional (e.g. marriage and family therapist), continuing education at an accredited college or university, job training, business school or mentoring by a business professional, support groups for particular problems and/or pastoral counseling for those attached to a church.
Most LGATs have little if any meaningful accountability, unlike the aforementioned resouces, which are typically licensed, regulated and/or accredited. In fact many LGATs expect participants to sign some sort of waiver, essentially relinquishing the right to claim a personal injury or have a personal injury trial in court before a jury.
Being expected to sign such a waiver should be a warning flag in my opinion.
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 21, 2011 02:03AM
To whom it may concern:
This thread is about "Landmark Education", not MJB.
Please stay on topic.
This thread is about "Landmark Education", not MJB.
Please stay on topic.
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
Eugene268
()
Date: November 17, 2011 10:51AM
Quote
sarina286
I did the MJB seminar on Relationships and You. I nearly didn't because of this site and what I read on it. I am glad that I went with my heart and completed it because if I didn't I would have missed out on one of the most amazingly wonderful experiences of my life.
I finally feel at peace with myself and love myself for who I am... something I have never been able to do in my lifetime.
Until you do MJB and stick it out properly.. don't knock it. Mitch and Emilia are wonderful people who have been through hell in their lives too. As for not having qualifications .. I've been to qualified people and they have never been able to help me like Mitch has.
Quote
rrmoderator
To whom it may concern:
This thread is about "Landmark Education", not MJB.
Please stay on topic.
I did the Landmark Forum and the Advanced Course and, very much like Sarina, I am glad that I did because for the first time I was able to make peace with my mom whom I felt never accepted me. So we are on the same page my mother never did anything bad to me and I can see now that she loved me all along, however, as a child and into my adulthood I never felt that she did. Because of an assignment from Landmark to call my mom she and I, for the first time ever, had a heart to heart. It cleared the air and I was able to bring all that I believed about her into the open where my mom quickly dispelled them. For the first time in a long time I felt loved and accepted by her.
Also, I don't usually tell anyone about it and I certainly don't try to sell it to anyone. I am not interested in changing any of your minds on the subject or arguing for Landmark...it is what it is. I am not even going to say they are qualified because I don't know. However, this was my experience of it. Although I may have run into another program that could have created the same breakthrough with my mom I don't believe that it would have happened on its own. Besides the initial fee I wasn't charged anything else. Nor did I ever feel like I couldn't get along in the real world. Indeed, all my relationships improved...at work, home and with friends.
I am sure that my experience with my mom may seem trivial to some of you and that you may feel compelled to marginalize it, however, it mattered to me. Most cults that I know of usually try to isolate you from the people in your life. I don't understand then why they would encourage the participants to work on their relationships? Do you think that they are hoping for a fail rate?
Re: tell your stories of landmark behaviour
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 18, 2011 11:01PM
The Real Secret
[forum.culteducation.com]
If people want the inside dope on what is really done in LEC, run a search for all the posts by Guy, who was a former employee and Forum Leader
It really didnt matter whose philosphies Erhard used. What mattered was the nuts and bolts 'tech' (technology) of social manipulation Erhard had learned from Scientology and Mind Dynamics.
These were the active ingredients. The stuff from philosophers and the references to Zen (inaccurate, BTW) were the capsule in which the secret, active ingredient was slipped down people's gullets.
When Guy appeared here and posted, a lot of trolls showed up to disrupt the discussions.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Read what Guy had to say about recruitment
Another user, gc4062 was quoted extensively and the inside information provided by this person was also valuable.
And a lot of trolls showed up.
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
Wow! I'm so glad I came here. I was active with Landmark Education...as a program leader and participant for close to 4 years.
I recently terminated my participation after having been subjected to some very negative, abusive experiences in "coaching" sessions with senior program leaders "committed" to me having a breakthrough in being "effective" at sharing the forum with people in my life and at the guest events.
Unfortuantely, like many other people, instead of discovering the realities of how Landmark works by doing investigative research and pursuing further discussions with others, I experienced first-hand that the nasty, foul heritage and history of this organization is alive, real and will never cease.
Like Guy, I experienced firsthand what it was like inside the rotten, ugly underbelly and of this organization where people are demeaned, invalidated, and dismissed for expressing a viewpoint that isn't consistent with the "distinctions." Where one day your golden because you registered 3 people in a room of 5 and the next day, you're ineffective pondscum because no one in the room registered. I'm definitely on the pathway to resolving all of the negative, invalidating and abusive experiences that I allowed myself to be subjected to. I look forward to moving on as an individual with a close circle of supportive friends and family...
Thank god I gave them a choice to do the forum or not because who knows if I'd still have them in my life if I used the force and manipulation tactics that I saw so many other graduates employ
If people want the inside dope on what is really done in LEC, run a search for all the posts by Guy, who was a former employee and Forum Leader
It really didnt matter whose philosphies Erhard used. What mattered was the nuts and bolts 'tech' (technology) of social manipulation Erhard had learned from Scientology and Mind Dynamics.
These were the active ingredients. The stuff from philosophers and the references to Zen (inaccurate, BTW) were the capsule in which the secret, active ingredient was slipped down people's gullets.
When Guy appeared here and posted, a lot of trolls showed up to disrupt the discussions.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,2293,2498#msg-2498
LEC is a for profit corp.
The stock is a carrot for staff members to stay on.
I don't remember how much was issued, but I'm sure the presses will issue more if needed.
I'm trying to imagine someone buying it from them.
I love her line: "It is a way that I can get my
hands on some needed extra cash, and at the same time also give people who are
committed to the possibilities LEC's work creates for people, the opportunity to
own shares in the company. "
Excuse me while I vomit.
Read what Guy had to say about recruitment
Another user, gc4062 was quoted extensively and the inside information provided by this person was also valuable.
And a lot of trolls showed up.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.