Re: The Work/Byron Katie, "Entheogens"
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 07, 2008 08:43PM
And by the way, it's very convenient to speak euphemistically of ingesting "entheogens".
In normal parlance, it's known as "drug addiction"!
But then it could explain the fuzzy thinking.
Why would a so-called Zen teacher would need to alter his consciousness regularly? Whatever happened to "clear mind"?
In normal parlance, it's known as "drug addiction"!
But then it could explain the fuzzy thinking.
Why would a so-called Zen teacher would need to alter his consciousness regularly? Whatever happened to "clear mind"?
Re: The Work/Byron Katie-strong concerns
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 07, 2008 08:57PM
Here is what to do if a lot of energy is diverted by struggling with a disruptive visitor:
Go to the topic/s being discussed right before the visitor showed up.
Such as room set up, and the possible enhancement of sophisticated
LGAT techniques if applied to persons who have been persuaded to travel
far, far from home, fly through multiple time zones and then do that same LGAT in a setting where one cannot easily leave if one decides one does not like it.
So...once again, if we get sucked into coversations that do not immediately
relate to the thread, ask:
What was being discussed before the visitor arrived?
And, dont forget to audit the person's posts and note any trends.
Non disruptive visitors tend to have creative posts.
But the disruptive visitors are a lot like telemarketers reading from a script.
After about 4 or 5 posts you see the same thing again,and again and yet again.
And no matter how much evidence you accumulate, they will never, ever concede that they contradicted themselves. Never.
So...look closely at the very matter these visitors insist on denying...the power of social context and lack of informed consent for subjects.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2008 09:00PM by corboy.
Go to the topic/s being discussed right before the visitor showed up.
Such as room set up, and the possible enhancement of sophisticated
LGAT techniques if applied to persons who have been persuaded to travel
far, far from home, fly through multiple time zones and then do that same LGAT in a setting where one cannot easily leave if one decides one does not like it.
So...once again, if we get sucked into coversations that do not immediately
relate to the thread, ask:
What was being discussed before the visitor arrived?
And, dont forget to audit the person's posts and note any trends.
Non disruptive visitors tend to have creative posts.
But the disruptive visitors are a lot like telemarketers reading from a script.
After about 4 or 5 posts you see the same thing again,and again and yet again.
And no matter how much evidence you accumulate, they will never, ever concede that they contradicted themselves. Never.
So...look closely at the very matter these visitors insist on denying...the power of social context and lack of informed consent for subjects.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2008 09:00PM by corboy.
Re: The Work/Byron Katie-strong concerns
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 07, 2008 09:14PM
Thanks a bunch, Corboy! The info is very helpful, as always!
The Work/Byron Katie-strong concerns, Stuart Resnick and coercion
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 08, 2008 12:17AM
Its clear that RandomStu is mainly just about derailing threads by avoiding the problems of Byron Katie...
But there is also a deeper pattern at work which points to some of what is being said, which is certainly non-random. The more basic agenda at play is something to keep in mind in general when reading on the internet. It appears RandomStu has been around for years but this type of "Zen in the Art of War", where anything goes, has not been looked at.
So this appears to be an example of those who present themselves as a type of critic of Gurus, but in reality they only criticize the worst criminals or their own Guru's enemies, meanwhile running apologetics and even cover-ups for their own Gurus of choice, and their methods of influence and coercion.
This is why a person would constantly post links to their Blog, even when told not to. The blog and websites are a type of soft-persuasion, to gently, or harshly shape the perceptions of the readers. It ain't "Random". That is like the concept..."Anti-Guru".
If you look at RandomStu's comments above about sexual coercion from Seung Sahn in the previous posts, his criteria for it not being coercion is that it was not with underage girls, or was apparently not forced sex due to no criminal charges? So it seems the only thing to meet the critieria for coercion then would be statutory rape, or rape. Rape is not "coercion" in this sense, rape is a criminal offense.
No, what Seung Sahn did is the definition of coercive by using undue influence and abusing his power and position. He had a supreme position of power over these women, he controlled their careers, their incomes, and in their belief system he basically influenced their entire destiny. Leaving a sect which you have given your life is very difficult for people.
On top of this, he probably told most of these women various lies about his intentions about marriage with them, etc.
That is all very serious coercion done by Seung Sah, and an abuse of power.
So how can someone like Stuart Resnick talk about "coercion" in any context, when anything short of the criminal offense of rape is not coercive? He is just trying to redefine the meaning of the word coercion, which is the same tactic being used all over the place.
Lastly, even the Wikipedia article on the Kwan Um School of Zen details very extreme practices, which are the textbook definition of some of the methods of social influence being discussed.
They use ancient extreme techniques like doing 1000 prostrations a day...which would take 8 hours at 30 secs for each one.
Or more familiar Tech like they use in some of their Retreats, which is a method of old school defacto brainwashing.
---------------------
[en.wikipedia.org]
"As Mu Soeng indicates, one of the key tenets to practice is what Seung Sahn often called "together action." Many members actually live in the Zen cente..."
"Participants have no contact with the outside world while undergoing a (21 to 90 day intensive) retreat, and the only literature permitted are those works written by Seung Sahn. They are in practice from 4:45 a.m. to 9:45 p.m. each day, and are not permitted to keep a diary during their stay."
But there is also a deeper pattern at work which points to some of what is being said, which is certainly non-random. The more basic agenda at play is something to keep in mind in general when reading on the internet. It appears RandomStu has been around for years but this type of "Zen in the Art of War", where anything goes, has not been looked at.
So this appears to be an example of those who present themselves as a type of critic of Gurus, but in reality they only criticize the worst criminals or their own Guru's enemies, meanwhile running apologetics and even cover-ups for their own Gurus of choice, and their methods of influence and coercion.
This is why a person would constantly post links to their Blog, even when told not to. The blog and websites are a type of soft-persuasion, to gently, or harshly shape the perceptions of the readers. It ain't "Random". That is like the concept..."Anti-Guru".
If you look at RandomStu's comments above about sexual coercion from Seung Sahn in the previous posts, his criteria for it not being coercion is that it was not with underage girls, or was apparently not forced sex due to no criminal charges? So it seems the only thing to meet the critieria for coercion then would be statutory rape, or rape. Rape is not "coercion" in this sense, rape is a criminal offense.
No, what Seung Sahn did is the definition of coercive by using undue influence and abusing his power and position. He had a supreme position of power over these women, he controlled their careers, their incomes, and in their belief system he basically influenced their entire destiny. Leaving a sect which you have given your life is very difficult for people.
On top of this, he probably told most of these women various lies about his intentions about marriage with them, etc.
That is all very serious coercion done by Seung Sah, and an abuse of power.
So how can someone like Stuart Resnick talk about "coercion" in any context, when anything short of the criminal offense of rape is not coercive? He is just trying to redefine the meaning of the word coercion, which is the same tactic being used all over the place.
Lastly, even the Wikipedia article on the Kwan Um School of Zen details very extreme practices, which are the textbook definition of some of the methods of social influence being discussed.
They use ancient extreme techniques like doing 1000 prostrations a day...which would take 8 hours at 30 secs for each one.
Or more familiar Tech like they use in some of their Retreats, which is a method of old school defacto brainwashing.
---------------------
[en.wikipedia.org]
"As Mu Soeng indicates, one of the key tenets to practice is what Seung Sahn often called "together action." Many members actually live in the Zen cente..."
"Participants have no contact with the outside world while undergoing a (21 to 90 day intensive) retreat, and the only literature permitted are those works written by Seung Sahn. They are in practice from 4:45 a.m. to 9:45 p.m. each day, and are not permitted to keep a diary during their stay."
Re: The Work/Byron Katie-strong concerns, Stuart Resnick and coercion
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 08, 2008 01:32AM
You know what, I retract what I said the other day about feeling badly for getting down into the gutter with Stu. I don't any longer feel regrets about how I responded to him. It's clear that Stu has been incredibly dishonest as well as in denial about a whole bunch of things.Quote
The Anticult
Its clear that RandomStu is mainly just about derailing threads by avoiding the problems of Byron Katie..
Let him go preach his bag of b.s. elsewhere. Why would he think that he could slip his pro-cult views in under the radar in a forum offering support for those recovering from cult involvement? That seems downright crazy! (Maybe he is a proponent of "crazy wisdom"?)
Re: The Work/Byron Katie-strong concerns, Stuart Resnick, brainwashing
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 08, 2008 03:36AM
These techniques of the Kwan Um School of Zen and their very extreme practices, like isolation for up to 90 days 17 hours a day while only reading the works of Seung Sahn, while NOT BEING PERMITTED to keep a diary. [en.wikipedia.org]
It triggered memories of how in various LGAT trainings they often discussed in great detail the numerous Korean brainwashing experiments which started back in the 1950's in a crude form.
They progressed from severe violence to permissive techniques which became much more subtle and effective.
Some of the most effective techniques were when they showed the subjects that all of their previous decisions they made were their own "free choice" and that there was no overt coercion they could spot.
Of course this is a massive subject.
But it is interesting to speculate how this knowledge filtered down into the Korean military of all sides.
Also, many manuals and books of these techniques have been available for decades, and of course they are much more refined.
Just search Google for
Korean brainwashing
It triggered memories of how in various LGAT trainings they often discussed in great detail the numerous Korean brainwashing experiments which started back in the 1950's in a crude form.
They progressed from severe violence to permissive techniques which became much more subtle and effective.
Some of the most effective techniques were when they showed the subjects that all of their previous decisions they made were their own "free choice" and that there was no overt coercion they could spot.
Of course this is a massive subject.
But it is interesting to speculate how this knowledge filtered down into the Korean military of all sides.
Also, many manuals and books of these techniques have been available for decades, and of course they are much more refined.
Just search Google for
Korean brainwashing
The Work/Byron Katie, Stuart Resnick, Seung Sahn, Stephen Mitchell
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 08, 2008 04:27AM
According to a reviewer of one of the books that Byron Katie's husband Stephen Mitchell edited for Seung Sahn, Dropping Ashes on the Buddha:
"I first read it 20 years ago and always enjoy opening it. Stephen Mitchell, now married to Byron Katie, was an early (as Americans go) student of Seung Sahn's and has gone on to a career of writing and translating many spiritual books."
[[url=http://www.gosale.com/943216/dropping-ashes-on-the-buddha]Dropping Ashes on the Buddha[/url]]
"I first read it 20 years ago and always enjoy opening it. Stephen Mitchell, now married to Byron Katie, was an early (as Americans go) student of Seung Sahn's and has gone on to a career of writing and translating many spiritual books."
[[url=http://www.gosale.com/943216/dropping-ashes-on-the-buddha]Dropping Ashes on the Buddha[/url]]
Quote
The Anticult
These techniques of the Kwan Um School of Zen and their very extreme practices, like isolation for up to 90 days 17 hours a day while only reading the works of Seung Sahn, while NOT BEING PERMITTED to keep a diary. [en.wikipedia.org]
Re: The Work/Byron Katie, Stuart Resnick, Seung Sahn, Stephen Mitchell
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 08, 2008 12:46PM
That is fascinating fact. You know, these guys are very tricky, but not tricky enough, it seems.
Just some applied critical analysis, and the facts come out pretty quick.
One can take a wild guess at who thought of the strategy of branding analysis of Byron Katie's persuasion techniques as "victimology"?
Notice how they try to project the blame for their own behaviors onto other people, and use the old Werner Erhard technique. They try to make YOU responsible for their behaviors, while they remain blameless.
The next step is after an investigative news program like 60 Minutes does a hidden camera expose of their techniques, then they cry they are the "victims", like Werner Erhard, when in reality they are just being held to account for their own behaviors.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2008 12:53PM by The Anticult.
Just some applied critical analysis, and the facts come out pretty quick.
One can take a wild guess at who thought of the strategy of branding analysis of Byron Katie's persuasion techniques as "victimology"?
Notice how they try to project the blame for their own behaviors onto other people, and use the old Werner Erhard technique. They try to make YOU responsible for their behaviors, while they remain blameless.
The next step is after an investigative news program like 60 Minutes does a hidden camera expose of their techniques, then they cry they are the "victims", like Werner Erhard, when in reality they are just being held to account for their own behaviors.
Quote
helpme2times
According to a reviewer of one of the books that Byron Katie's husband Stephen Mitchell edited for Seung Sahn, Dropping Ashes on the Buddha:
"I first read it 20 years ago and always enjoy opening it. Stephen Mitchell, now married to Byron Katie, was an early (as Americans go) student of Seung Sahn's and has gone on to a career of writing and translating many spiritual books."
[[url=http://www.gosale.com/943216/dropping-ashes-on-the-buddha]Dropping Ashes on the Buddha[/url]]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2008 12:53PM by The Anticult.
Re: The Work/Byron Katie, "Entheogens" and drug abuse in Zen
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 08, 2008 01:54PM
All joking aside, some folks who happen to have known lots of people who have done various forms of rec-drugs for many years off and on, see the end results, and that result is always the same.
Everytime.
Its extremely irresponsible for people in the so-called spiritual community to be making internet blog posts about how certain drugs and controlled substances can be used in so-called enlightenment explorations. Its getting stoned, and getting high, its the opposite to development, its regressive.
On top of that, their arrogant egomania tells them their ZenMind can handle the drugs, which is nonsense. The problem with drugs is they distort people's minds, which leads to a vicious downward circle.
In the case of certain Zen schools, its also against their posted rules to be using those controlled substances.
On a serious note, some crazy celebrity who did various drugs for years, has finally come to the realization he has damaged his brain, now that he is locked up.
This is a blog from that crazy MTV guy STEVE-O. Its full of swear words, of course, but it seems even this guy has realized that drugs have damaged his brain...but only too late.
[www.steveo.com]
I can't believe some of these guys are so arrogant to condone that type of thing. They will end up with the same result as everyone else.
And almost no one in the so-called enlightenment community seems to call them to task.
If often seems if the enlightenment crowd is the most unenlightened and self-absorbed of them all.
Those that don't really think about it much, and are busy doing their thing, seem to be light-years beyond.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2008 02:03PM by The Anticult.
Everytime.
Its extremely irresponsible for people in the so-called spiritual community to be making internet blog posts about how certain drugs and controlled substances can be used in so-called enlightenment explorations. Its getting stoned, and getting high, its the opposite to development, its regressive.
On top of that, their arrogant egomania tells them their ZenMind can handle the drugs, which is nonsense. The problem with drugs is they distort people's minds, which leads to a vicious downward circle.
In the case of certain Zen schools, its also against their posted rules to be using those controlled substances.
On a serious note, some crazy celebrity who did various drugs for years, has finally come to the realization he has damaged his brain, now that he is locked up.
This is a blog from that crazy MTV guy STEVE-O. Its full of swear words, of course, but it seems even this guy has realized that drugs have damaged his brain...but only too late.
[www.steveo.com]
I can't believe some of these guys are so arrogant to condone that type of thing. They will end up with the same result as everyone else.
And almost no one in the so-called enlightenment community seems to call them to task.
If often seems if the enlightenment crowd is the most unenlightened and self-absorbed of them all.
Those that don't really think about it much, and are busy doing their thing, seem to be light-years beyond.
Quote
helpme2times
And by the way, it's very convenient to speak euphemistically of ingesting "entheogens".
In normal parlance, it's known as "drug addiction"!
But then it could explain the fuzzy thinking.
Why would a so-called Zen teacher would need to alter his consciousness regularly? Whatever happened to "clear mind"?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2008 02:03PM by The Anticult.
Re: The Work/Byron Katie, "Entheogens" and drug abuse in Zen
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 08, 2008 08:12PM
Well this is "enlightening"...
[[url=http://www.kwanumzen.org/primarypoint/v08n2-1991-summer-dssn-themedicinebuddha.html]Dialogue with Seung Sahn: The Medicine Buddha[/url]]
Interesting excerpt from the dialogue:
PP: Nowadays many people have problems with drugs and drinking. What kind of karma is this? How can these people be helped?
ZMSS [Zen Master Seung Sahn]: Sometimes it may be before-life karma, but sometimes it may be because of doing "together action" with others: "I don't want to use drugs or alcohol, but my friends say, 'you try,' and so I do that." This kind of mind already understands that drugs or alcohol are no good. So if they want to fix their mind, they can fix it with meditation. But if they don't care and are only interested in having a good time, they cannot fix it. Your mind makes everything. Buddha said, "All things are created by mind alone." So your mind creates sickness and you fix your sickness with your mind. That's interesting, no?
(Now we know where Stu gets this "you create your reality" business. He's parroting his teacher who says, "your mind makes everything". I wonder, how does the mind create a baby being born, a tree to grow, etc.?)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2008 08:16PM by helpme2times.
[[url=http://www.kwanumzen.org/primarypoint/v08n2-1991-summer-dssn-themedicinebuddha.html]Dialogue with Seung Sahn: The Medicine Buddha[/url]]
Interesting excerpt from the dialogue:
PP: Nowadays many people have problems with drugs and drinking. What kind of karma is this? How can these people be helped?
ZMSS [Zen Master Seung Sahn]: Sometimes it may be before-life karma, but sometimes it may be because of doing "together action" with others: "I don't want to use drugs or alcohol, but my friends say, 'you try,' and so I do that." This kind of mind already understands that drugs or alcohol are no good. So if they want to fix their mind, they can fix it with meditation. But if they don't care and are only interested in having a good time, they cannot fix it. Your mind makes everything. Buddha said, "All things are created by mind alone." So your mind creates sickness and you fix your sickness with your mind. That's interesting, no?
(Now we know where Stu gets this "you create your reality" business. He's parroting his teacher who says, "your mind makes everything". I wonder, how does the mind create a baby being born, a tree to grow, etc.?)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2008 08:16PM by helpme2times.
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