Re: The Work/Byron Katie Carol Skolnick Amen Clinic
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: June 27, 2008 11:19PM
Speaking of Carol Skolnick, I have just read one of her recent blog entries, in which she attempts to sell an e-book she's written re depression:Quote
The Anticult
Or why not talk about Carol Skolnicks pre-framing the public for a Byron Katie Love-Bomb?
[[url=http://soulsurgery.blogspot.com/2008/06/asking-depression-preorder-today.html]Transformational Inquiry: Asking Depression[/url]]
What is particularly horrifying to me is that Carol mentions a psychiatric clinic, the Amen Clinic run by Dr. Daniel Amen. Apparently the Amen Clinic endorses Byron Katie's work - see this page from their website, selling several of BK's books:
[[url=http://amenclinics.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&sort=20a&page=2&zenid=1dd398eb53f6d49c47bbd373dcb56f68]Amen Clinic's Online Store Page[/url]]
Re: The Work/Byron Katie, Ice Cream - You Scream
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 28, 2008 03:10AM
That metaphor of multimillionaire LGAT Guru's being like "ice cream salesmen" is a fascinating one.
You see, they are just honest down-home business people, selling a Product/Service.
If you choose to buy too much ice cream and get fat, then that's your fault.
Right?
Interesting metaphor, certainly.
I think a better metaphor would be a travelling ice cream salesmen, who is selling a new kind of "ice cream".
Its sweeter and yummier than regular ice cream.
Its also has zero calories, he tells you, so you can't get fat,and can eat all you want.
Its also full of secret vitamins, and secret patented health substances that will make you feel better, and possibly even cure your cancer if you believe it will, and even make you live forever in an enlightened state. (of course that's the more advanced ice cream).
So since this LGAT ice cream is so Advanced, its very expensive. Its $5,000 for a weeks supply, and you can only get it at the Holiday Inn Ballroom from the salesman for that week.
So you sign the contract for this ice cream, and go to the ice cream seminar. You get 9 days of raving about this ice cream. you even hand over your wedding rings to get this ice cream.
Then on the last day, you get a dixie cup of ice cream, but it look like normal ice cream!! But it must be special ice cream, as it costs $5,000.
Anyway, then the ice cream salesman leaves town fast. (no refunds).
If you want more ice cream, you can only buy it from him over the internet.
(etc, you get the metaphor).
The only thing one might add, is the ice cream also might have lead-paint in it, as its made off-shore to cut costs.
Also, once you sign up to be an ice cream distributor and pay in advance, you get sent a truck of old potatoes which rot in the garage, and get charged triple for it.
LGAT salesmen are not like ice cream sellers.
They are like travelling Snake-Oil potion con-artists of deception, and now they are so good at it, they can appear to be Legit, and you can't get your money back as you signed all your rights away before they let you in the door.
(The worst of them might be more along the lines of a pedophile who uses ice cream for luring.)
Too bad they didn't use the methaphor of a "Tea salespeople", since Byron Katie uses "tea" as one of her many "triggers" and "anchors", along with the "head-cocking", Love-Bombing, Handshake Induction, and dozens of other things.
But they don't want you think about that....they want you to think about LOVE LOVE LOVE.
or even more, to try to not think at all, and just submit and surrender.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 03:18AM by The Anticult.
You see, they are just honest down-home business people, selling a Product/Service.
If you choose to buy too much ice cream and get fat, then that's your fault.
Right?
Interesting metaphor, certainly.
I think a better metaphor would be a travelling ice cream salesmen, who is selling a new kind of "ice cream".
Its sweeter and yummier than regular ice cream.
Its also has zero calories, he tells you, so you can't get fat,and can eat all you want.
Its also full of secret vitamins, and secret patented health substances that will make you feel better, and possibly even cure your cancer if you believe it will, and even make you live forever in an enlightened state. (of course that's the more advanced ice cream).
So since this LGAT ice cream is so Advanced, its very expensive. Its $5,000 for a weeks supply, and you can only get it at the Holiday Inn Ballroom from the salesman for that week.
So you sign the contract for this ice cream, and go to the ice cream seminar. You get 9 days of raving about this ice cream. you even hand over your wedding rings to get this ice cream.
Then on the last day, you get a dixie cup of ice cream, but it look like normal ice cream!! But it must be special ice cream, as it costs $5,000.
Anyway, then the ice cream salesman leaves town fast. (no refunds).
If you want more ice cream, you can only buy it from him over the internet.
(etc, you get the metaphor).
The only thing one might add, is the ice cream also might have lead-paint in it, as its made off-shore to cut costs.
Also, once you sign up to be an ice cream distributor and pay in advance, you get sent a truck of old potatoes which rot in the garage, and get charged triple for it.
LGAT salesmen are not like ice cream sellers.
They are like travelling Snake-Oil potion con-artists of deception, and now they are so good at it, they can appear to be Legit, and you can't get your money back as you signed all your rights away before they let you in the door.
(The worst of them might be more along the lines of a pedophile who uses ice cream for luring.)
Too bad they didn't use the methaphor of a "Tea salespeople", since Byron Katie uses "tea" as one of her many "triggers" and "anchors", along with the "head-cocking", Love-Bombing, Handshake Induction, and dozens of other things.
But they don't want you think about that....they want you to think about LOVE LOVE LOVE.
or even more, to try to not think at all, and just submit and surrender.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 03:18AM by The Anticult.
The Work/Byron Katie, Violence, metaphors and stories PAIN-PLEASURE
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 28, 2008 03:55AM
also above, comments were made about the use violence or threats of violence.
That is also very interesting.
Anyone who reads Byron Katie's books, listens to the CD's, will immediately be bombarded with dozens of images, metaphors and stories of horrendous violence. Robberies at gunpoint, child rape, child murder, war atrocities, etc.
Why does Byron Katie use such violent and horrific metaphors in her hypnotic "stories"?
There are many reasons for them, other than just being a disturbed person, or wanting to Trigger traumatic memories in the clients, which creates the "pain" which is the motivator in the sales process. (LGAT 101) PAIN-PLEASURE (Byron Katie then promises total relief from pain as her Product)
One of the obvious reasons for the "robbery at gunpoint" stories is to teach you to "love the robber" if you can believe it. Again, Byron Katie "stories" are directed at the unconscious. So the message is to be passive as you GIVE UP EVERYTHING OF VALUE. Everything? Yes, everything, its right there in the text.
Same with the War Stories. Its not so much about the wars in the world, but the war FOR your mind and soul. Again, the Katie solution? Be passive, be like the flower-vase.
There is more info in the threads about this. Aynone who looks carefully can see the embedded persuasion patterns in the Byron Katie "stories", Double-Binds, etc.
Many of these Guru's use these techniques.
Just remember, every single time they are telling any type of "story", that story has been carefully written to achieve certain effects on the audience. Its a way of rewiring your brain, so analyze those Stories very carefully.
Byron Katie knows the foundation of the human psyche is based on these "beliefs" which are encoded in "stories". So she want to take control of as many of those stories as she can.
This is why she repeats the same story, over and over.
and repetition, is why she often repeats the same story.
So this is why over and over, she constantly repeats the same stories.
That is also very interesting.
Anyone who reads Byron Katie's books, listens to the CD's, will immediately be bombarded with dozens of images, metaphors and stories of horrendous violence. Robberies at gunpoint, child rape, child murder, war atrocities, etc.
Why does Byron Katie use such violent and horrific metaphors in her hypnotic "stories"?
There are many reasons for them, other than just being a disturbed person, or wanting to Trigger traumatic memories in the clients, which creates the "pain" which is the motivator in the sales process. (LGAT 101) PAIN-PLEASURE (Byron Katie then promises total relief from pain as her Product)
One of the obvious reasons for the "robbery at gunpoint" stories is to teach you to "love the robber" if you can believe it. Again, Byron Katie "stories" are directed at the unconscious. So the message is to be passive as you GIVE UP EVERYTHING OF VALUE. Everything? Yes, everything, its right there in the text.
Same with the War Stories. Its not so much about the wars in the world, but the war FOR your mind and soul. Again, the Katie solution? Be passive, be like the flower-vase.
There is more info in the threads about this. Aynone who looks carefully can see the embedded persuasion patterns in the Byron Katie "stories", Double-Binds, etc.
Many of these Guru's use these techniques.
Just remember, every single time they are telling any type of "story", that story has been carefully written to achieve certain effects on the audience. Its a way of rewiring your brain, so analyze those Stories very carefully.
Byron Katie knows the foundation of the human psyche is based on these "beliefs" which are encoded in "stories". So she want to take control of as many of those stories as she can.
This is why she repeats the same story, over and over.
and repetition, is why she often repeats the same story.
So this is why over and over, she constantly repeats the same stories.
Re: The Work/Byron Katie Carol Skolnick Amen Clinic, Brain Scam
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 28, 2008 04:24AM
Its interesting that Byron Katie has hooked up with Dr. Daniel Amen for some cross-marketing.
Dr. Daniel Amen is a notorious self-promoter, and runs his SPECT scam and quackery on the public through his chain of clinics. He charges a fortune for a worthless and unproven test, staffed by untrained "technicians", many complaints.
A Skeptical View of SPECT Scans and Dr. Daniel Amen
[www.quackwatch.org]
Brain scam
Why is PBS airing Dr. Daniel Amen's self-produced infomercial for the prevention of Alzheimer's disease?
By Robert Burton
[www.salon.com]
Dr. Daniel Amen is a notorious self-promoter, and runs his SPECT scam and quackery on the public through his chain of clinics. He charges a fortune for a worthless and unproven test, staffed by untrained "technicians", many complaints.
A Skeptical View of SPECT Scans and Dr. Daniel Amen
[www.quackwatch.org]
Brain scam
Why is PBS airing Dr. Daniel Amen's self-produced infomercial for the prevention of Alzheimer's disease?
By Robert Burton
[www.salon.com]
Quote
helpme2times
What is particularly horrifying to me is that Carol mentions a psychiatric clinic, the Amen Clinic run by Dr. Daniel Amen. Apparently the Amen Clinic endorses Byron Katie's work - see this page from their website, selling several of BK's books:
[[url=http://amenclinics.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&sort=20a&page=2&zenid=1dd398eb53f6d49c47bbd373dcb56f68]Amen Clinic's Online Store Page[/url]]
Re: The Work/Byron Katie Carol Skolnick Amen Clinic, Brain Scam
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 28, 2008 05:07AM
Here is a link to more analysis of Dr. Daniel Amen, and Amen Clinics
(this reminds one of the TV doctor on The Simpsons...."COME ON DOWN EVERYBODY AND GET YOUR BRAINSCANS....only $3,999.99 today only")
[carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com]
"The bottom line is that functional neuroimaging is not ready for prime time in clinical settings, with very few exceptions, such as the use of PET scanning to differentiate frontotemporal dementia from Alzheimer's disease."
SPECT Scans at the Amen Clinic - A New Phrenology?
[www.sciencebasedmedicine.org]
QUOTE:
In one of his books Amen suggests that “Mother Teresa and Mahatma Gandhi had optimal brain function” whereas “Adolph Hitler and other brutal dictators had faulty brain wiring.” The fact that he can make these historical diagnoses without SPECT scans argues against the need for SPECT scanning in his patients. ...
Amen’s website has lots of testimonials from satisfied patients; but he doesn’t tell you about the patients who were dissatisfied, who felt their money was wasted. In one case “nothing that was written or diagnosed actually came from the SPECT image, but from a history taken orally from the family.” A relative of a patient sent me the glossy Amen Clinic brochure that is being handed out at her son’s school. The sender was particularly amused by a set of brain pictures of an “overfocused wife” and an “underfocused husband.” Yes, Amen is using SPECT scans for marital counseling!
Some of the treatments he offers are even more disturbing. Once the pretty pictures have guided him to a diagnosis, Amen recommends a number of questionable treatments, some of which have been tested and found not to work, and many of which are not recommended by science-based medical doctors - [...] He has his own line of vitamins and diet supplements which are available for purchase on his website. He also sells books and videos, lectures, and has developed his ideas into a big business...."
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 05:17AM by The Anticult.
(this reminds one of the TV doctor on The Simpsons...."COME ON DOWN EVERYBODY AND GET YOUR BRAINSCANS....only $3,999.99 today only")
[carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com]
"The bottom line is that functional neuroimaging is not ready for prime time in clinical settings, with very few exceptions, such as the use of PET scanning to differentiate frontotemporal dementia from Alzheimer's disease."
SPECT Scans at the Amen Clinic - A New Phrenology?
[www.sciencebasedmedicine.org]
QUOTE:
In one of his books Amen suggests that “Mother Teresa and Mahatma Gandhi had optimal brain function” whereas “Adolph Hitler and other brutal dictators had faulty brain wiring.” The fact that he can make these historical diagnoses without SPECT scans argues against the need for SPECT scanning in his patients. ...
Amen’s website has lots of testimonials from satisfied patients; but he doesn’t tell you about the patients who were dissatisfied, who felt their money was wasted. In one case “nothing that was written or diagnosed actually came from the SPECT image, but from a history taken orally from the family.” A relative of a patient sent me the glossy Amen Clinic brochure that is being handed out at her son’s school. The sender was particularly amused by a set of brain pictures of an “overfocused wife” and an “underfocused husband.” Yes, Amen is using SPECT scans for marital counseling!
Some of the treatments he offers are even more disturbing. Once the pretty pictures have guided him to a diagnosis, Amen recommends a number of questionable treatments, some of which have been tested and found not to work, and many of which are not recommended by science-based medical doctors - [...] He has his own line of vitamins and diet supplements which are available for purchase on his website. He also sells books and videos, lectures, and has developed his ideas into a big business...."
Quote
A Skeptical View of SPECT Scans and Dr. Daniel Amen
[www.quackwatch.org]
Brain scam
Why is PBS airing Dr. Daniel Amen's self-produced infomercial for the prevention of Alzheimer's disease?
By Robert Burton
[www.salon.com]Quote
helpme2times
What is particularly horrifying to me is that Carol mentions a psychiatric clinic, the Amen Clinic run by Dr. Daniel Amen. Apparently the Amen Clinic endorses Byron Katie's work - see this page from their website, selling several of BK's books:
[[url=http://amenclinics.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&sort=20a&page=2&zenid=1dd398eb53f6d49c47bbd373dcb56f68]Amen Clinic's Online Store Page[/url]]
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 05:17AM by The Anticult.
Re: The Work/Byron Katie-strong concerns
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: June 28, 2008 09:40PM
Dr Amen gets quoted in Men's Health Magazine website
[www.menshealth.com]
Understanding Sex and the BrainSex on the Brain
Sexy Photo Here
Why does temptation so often trip up seemingly smart, decent guys?
Expert: Daniel Amen, M.D., Photographs by: Ondrea Barbe
*(Reference to disgraced NY Governor Eliot Spitzer follows. Set up is horniness followed by anxiety arousing scenario rooted in recent news> C)
(quote)Editor's note: New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer's alleged involvement with a prostitute revived that age-old discussion: What is it with some men? Why do they behave so stupidly when it comes to women? We have some of the answers here, in Dr. Daniel Amen's list of 24 reasons men's brains stop working around women. (unquote)
(quote from page one of article--Dr. Amen's text)--
(Notice the picture at the top of article. (If you're a straight guy or a lesbian you cant help but notice that picture--unless you happen to be blind or clinically depressed.
Try and stay calm and analytical after exposure to that picture while reading the text that follows. Notice whether staying calm and analytical in such circumstances is easy for you or requires an effort. C )
(quote) Dr Amen writes in this article:
'When you spot the object of your desire, the neurotransmitter dopamine lights up areas deep within the brain, triggering feelings of pleasure, motivation, and reward. (Cocaine acts the same way.) You feel a rush, and your heartbeat quickens. Attraction, too, is a powerful drug. The brain stem also gets into the act, releasing phenylethylamine (PEA), which speeds up the flow of information between nerve cells. It's no wonder your neck and eyeballs track her every movement.
'But she's not gawking back at you, and it's not just because you're driving a family bus with a paint scrape on the fender. Her brain acts very differently from yours. You're keyed in to beauty, shape, fantasy, and obsession; on some biological level that she may be unaware of, she's trolling for a mate who will sire healthy children and protect and provide for her and them. And yes, maybe even buy them a family van.
"Her goals are programmed for the long range; yours are often shockingly short term, right up to and including thoughts of pedestrianophilia. And she knows it, which is why she presses those short-term buttons shotgun-style: She never knows when a suitable mate might be looking.
"The whole encounter can leave you quivering with pleasure, hoping for more.
"It can also hijack and ruin your life.
"And between the "walk" and "don't walk" signals of delight and disaster, your brain is sorting information, making choices, spurring actions. But you don't want to passively accept all that, especially because your whole life is riding on the choices you make.
(We are reaching the end of the first page of the website article. Dr Amen rides to the rescue of the reader, someone who has first seen the sexy lady in the photo at the top of the article, a reader presumably horny - and concerned about how horniness might mess up his life C)
"That's where I come in. I know the brain processes behind the temptations, and I can help you steer clear of trouble. After all, that woman in the crosswalk could help you realize your destiny, or derail it entirely. All the more reason to get to know that big sex organ between your ears so you can control the smaller, less important one between your legs..."
End of first page of Men's Health Website article
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 10:03PM by corboy.
[www.menshealth.com]
Understanding Sex and the BrainSex on the Brain
Sexy Photo Here
Why does temptation so often trip up seemingly smart, decent guys?
Expert: Daniel Amen, M.D., Photographs by: Ondrea Barbe
*(Reference to disgraced NY Governor Eliot Spitzer follows. Set up is horniness followed by anxiety arousing scenario rooted in recent news> C)
(quote)Editor's note: New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer's alleged involvement with a prostitute revived that age-old discussion: What is it with some men? Why do they behave so stupidly when it comes to women? We have some of the answers here, in Dr. Daniel Amen's list of 24 reasons men's brains stop working around women. (unquote)
(quote from page one of article--Dr. Amen's text)--
(Notice the picture at the top of article. (If you're a straight guy or a lesbian you cant help but notice that picture--unless you happen to be blind or clinically depressed.
Try and stay calm and analytical after exposure to that picture while reading the text that follows. Notice whether staying calm and analytical in such circumstances is easy for you or requires an effort. C )
(quote) Dr Amen writes in this article:
'When you spot the object of your desire, the neurotransmitter dopamine lights up areas deep within the brain, triggering feelings of pleasure, motivation, and reward. (Cocaine acts the same way.) You feel a rush, and your heartbeat quickens. Attraction, too, is a powerful drug. The brain stem also gets into the act, releasing phenylethylamine (PEA), which speeds up the flow of information between nerve cells. It's no wonder your neck and eyeballs track her every movement.
'But she's not gawking back at you, and it's not just because you're driving a family bus with a paint scrape on the fender. Her brain acts very differently from yours. You're keyed in to beauty, shape, fantasy, and obsession; on some biological level that she may be unaware of, she's trolling for a mate who will sire healthy children and protect and provide for her and them. And yes, maybe even buy them a family van.
"Her goals are programmed for the long range; yours are often shockingly short term, right up to and including thoughts of pedestrianophilia. And she knows it, which is why she presses those short-term buttons shotgun-style: She never knows when a suitable mate might be looking.
"The whole encounter can leave you quivering with pleasure, hoping for more.
"It can also hijack and ruin your life.
"And between the "walk" and "don't walk" signals of delight and disaster, your brain is sorting information, making choices, spurring actions. But you don't want to passively accept all that, especially because your whole life is riding on the choices you make.
(We are reaching the end of the first page of the website article. Dr Amen rides to the rescue of the reader, someone who has first seen the sexy lady in the photo at the top of the article, a reader presumably horny - and concerned about how horniness might mess up his life C)
"That's where I come in. I know the brain processes behind the temptations, and I can help you steer clear of trouble. After all, that woman in the crosswalk could help you realize your destiny, or derail it entirely. All the more reason to get to know that big sex organ between your ears so you can control the smaller, less important one between your legs..."
End of first page of Men's Health Website article
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 10:03PM by corboy.
Re: The Work/Byron Katie-strong concerns, Dr. Daniel Amen vs Shamblog
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 29, 2008 01:10AM
The generic writing style and "tone" of that article seem to mirror the typical RODALE method.
It would not surprise one at all, if RODALE writes the article with staff writers, adding in the current pop-culture references, and then mixes in random factoids with no meaningful context.
They then send it to some "expert" to stick their name on it.
I bet Steve Salerno at SHAMblog could enlighten us on how that game works at RODALE.
[www.shambook.blogspot.com]
It would not surprise one at all, if RODALE writes the article with staff writers, adding in the current pop-culture references, and then mixes in random factoids with no meaningful context.
They then send it to some "expert" to stick their name on it.
I bet Steve Salerno at SHAMblog could enlighten us on how that game works at RODALE.
[www.shambook.blogspot.com]
Quote
corboy
Dr Amen gets quoted in Men's Health Magazine website
[www.menshealth.com]
Understanding Sex and the BrainSex on the Brain
Sexy Photo Here
Why does temptation so often trip up seemingly smart, decent guys?
Expert: Daniel Amen, M.D., Photographs by: Ondrea Barbe
Byron Katie, Carol Skolnick, ebook, ELIMINATE DEPRESSION?
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 29, 2008 01:38AM
One has to wonder, where did Carol Skolnick learn about treating and managing depression?
The Work by Byron Katie?
There is literally ZERO objective proof that The Work by Byron Katie works for depression. There have been no clinical studies at all. Nothing.
Byron Katie claims to ELIMINATE DEPRESSION with The Work, does Carol Skolnick also claim this?
Carol is a very careful and tricky writer, very effective.
She opens with a very carefully written paragraph, that folds back in on itself in a BK loop.
She then does some light Inquiry, not too threatening.
Then Daniel Amen, literally robs the concepts of Dr. Aaron Beck (without attribution) when he poaches the term "Automatic Thoughts". Dr. Daniel Amen and Byron Katie make appropriate bedfellows.
Why is the version of The Work being promoted by Carol Skolnick so different than the one by Byron Katie?
Byron Katie still claims on her website that The Work can ELIMINATE DEPRESSION.
Why the double and mixed messages?
Why does the superficial salespitch differ so profoundly from the main-course?
Its like in TM, when they say..."hey its just a meaningless mantra", which turns out to be a deception.
Why the deceptive style soft-sell underplayed salesmanship?
I honestly can't tell if they know its a deceptive sales practice, or if they just really believe people "aren't ready" for the "full message" so they have to be groomed with a soft-sell?
Virtually all these groups do this, casting a wide-net, with a deceptive initial message.
How conscious are they that what they are doing is deception and grooming?
The Work by Byron Katie?
There is literally ZERO objective proof that The Work by Byron Katie works for depression. There have been no clinical studies at all. Nothing.
Byron Katie claims to ELIMINATE DEPRESSION with The Work, does Carol Skolnick also claim this?
Carol is a very careful and tricky writer, very effective.
She opens with a very carefully written paragraph, that folds back in on itself in a BK loop.
She then does some light Inquiry, not too threatening.
Then Daniel Amen, literally robs the concepts of Dr. Aaron Beck (without attribution) when he poaches the term "Automatic Thoughts". Dr. Daniel Amen and Byron Katie make appropriate bedfellows.
Why is the version of The Work being promoted by Carol Skolnick so different than the one by Byron Katie?
Byron Katie still claims on her website that The Work can ELIMINATE DEPRESSION.
Why the double and mixed messages?
Why does the superficial salespitch differ so profoundly from the main-course?
Its like in TM, when they say..."hey its just a meaningless mantra", which turns out to be a deception.
Why the deceptive style soft-sell underplayed salesmanship?
I honestly can't tell if they know its a deceptive sales practice, or if they just really believe people "aren't ready" for the "full message" so they have to be groomed with a soft-sell?
Virtually all these groups do this, casting a wide-net, with a deceptive initial message.
How conscious are they that what they are doing is deception and grooming?
Quote
helpme2times
Speaking of Carol Skolnick, I have just read one of her recent blog entries, in which she attempts to sell an e-book she's written re depression:
[[url=http://soulsurgery.blogspot.com/2008/06/asking-depression-preorder-today.html]Transformational Inquiry: Asking Depression[/url]]
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Complaints, California Board of Psychology,
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: June 29, 2008 09:04PM
Dude, you endorse her on your web page, My So-Called Spiritual Life, complete with links to her blog and YouTube videos:Quote
RandomStu
Which makes me wonder... since I've never said a single word about BK's work being "so great"... how did that idea get in your head? Perhaps your projecting your own conflicted ideas onto me.
Your "so-called spiritual life"? I'll agree to that.Quote
Byron Katie teaches how to examine thoughts to see if they're true and beneficial. She says, When you argue with reality, you lose... but only 100% of the time. Katie has a blog and some videos on Google.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2008 09:13PM by helpme2times.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Complaints, California Board of Psychology,
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: June 30, 2008 01:17AM
Muktananda and Werner Erhard
Stuart's website as of this morning (june 29, 2008) mentioned this
[home.comcast.net]
"LGATs (Large Group Awareness Trainings) were all the rage when I was growing up in the 70s. They include Werner Erhart's now-defunct est, its successor The Forum (aka Landmark Education), Lifespring, and many spin-offs. I've never attended these, **though the many Intensives I experienced with Swami Muktananda were heavily influenced by Werner, and gave me a strong taste of the group dynamic**"(double asterisks added for editorial emphasis by C)
The Truth about Human Potential Seminars is a blog covering the LGATs; The Awareness Page offers many links they say will help Awareness consumers make conscious informed decisions; and Rick Ross' site has the video Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus, a 2004 French TV report with hidden cameras inside an actual Landmark training.(end of quote from Stuarts site)
However, I invite interested readers to go to Marta Szabo's The Guru Looked Good blog, and read the comments that follow Chapter 38. For there are, on this comments thread, additional discussions about Werner and Muktananda. Please read the whole thing and come to your own conclusions.
[the-guru-looked-good.blogspot.com]
Begin reading with comment
P.S. Warm Bears turned into Atma Prabha. New name, just as lame.
August 28, 2007 11:58 AM
Anonymous said...
Then, shoulder your stamina and keep reading, preferably to the end. If you dont have the time to do it all in one session at least read through all the stuff included on August 29th
Its interesting that in the middle of this very upsetting and enlightening
discussion someone anonymous suddenly recalled how wonderful the breakfasts at SY were and began requesting recipes. This gustatory nostalgia kick triggered a discussion of recipes...but after the detour, the discussion did return and remained on the subject matter at hand.
Toward the end of that thread, someone else stated, quite eloquently and convincingly that anonymity was necessary.
Now, at this point it is worth raising a very interesting question.
Suppose you, a seeker, are led to believe, from what you see, from what you hear, and from what you are TOLD, that you are getting involved with an authentic Hindu guru, Baba Muktananda, who teaches hatha yoga, and the guidelines include celibacy for singles and monogamy for married couples?
You're not paranoid. You are trustful, this is the 1970s. The bad stuff about cults hasnt happened yet. You trust that what you are being told is truthful.
But you NOT told, as a newbie, that Baba Muktananda is actually a tantric practitioner, in tradition that even in India, conceals the practice of sexual tantra behind a facade of clean living and hatha yoga, practiced by celibate monks are monagamously married householders.
www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/caldwell.sarah.pdf 'The Heart of the Secret: A Personal and Scholarly Encounter With Shakta Tantrism in Siddha Yoga by Sarah Caldwell.
You, the beginner are not told that Baba is showing one face to the public and doing something quite different in private and that he feels entitled to use force and sexual exploitation as if he were a feudal prince.
Not being told any of this, how can you give informed consent when you first show up at the ashram door?
Two, you are not told that Baba Muktananda, this allegedly Hindu guru, happens to have become friends with Werner Erhard, who has learned a bundle of very powerful methods to induce powerful mood changes, regression and bonding by applying these covert techniques to an entire group of people, in a tightly scripted set of heavy duty weekend exercises. And that Werner has learned these from Scientology, from American high pressure sales techniques, and from all kinds of research on group behavior done by the US government.
And suppose your guru is learning to use these powerful but NON HINDU NON YOGA techniques during his intensives, but is letting you assume, trustfully, that this is merely traditional Kashmiri Shaivite practice, not a combination of Baba's teachings and Werner Erhard's tips?
When you leave, you will think you have been affected, perhaps harmed by an abusive guru and a corrupt Asian misogynistic tradition that disastrously
re enacted feudalism in a US setting.
You may be unaware BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT TOLD THIS BY BABA MUKTANANDA that you also were impacted by the powerful methods shared with him by Werner Erhard and EST.
Now, imagine a person ill, who thinks he or she is ill with food poisoning.
The person doesnt know it but he is not only suffering from bacterial food poisoning, but some rat poison happened to fall into the soup.
If the treating physician precribes only an antibiotic and doesnt see enough to warrant ordering a toxicology panel of tests, the effects of the rat poison will continue to do their damage.
A survivor of SY may need treatment not only for guru-poisoning but possibly for LGAT poisoning, if LGAT methods were incorporated into the SY bundle at an early stage in its development.
So far, the SY discussions seem to center just on the role of the guru and the organization and just or or two have mentioned how devotee psychotherapists were suborned.
But so far no one seems to have explored whether the difficulties some have in getting recovery from SY is not from weakness of will, but perhaps, perhaps, perhaps from being exposed to powerful induction methods derived from LGATs...and never being told they were exposed to this.
THis would counter the invidious assertion that people go into cults because of their own cravings.
WHat if you're not told up front, the full range of techniques and their actual origins.
At least people who KNOW they went to a specific LGAT such as Landmark or EST and decide afterward that they didnt like it, will know exactly where to go and on which section of the RR.com discussion board to go, in order to discuss its impact.
But what if someone was affected in a seemingly Hindu yoga organization by techniques derived from the gurus friendship from Werner Erhard, founder of EST, and they are not told this? THey wont know to look up LGAT when looking for recovery resources.
See how complicated and hard it is to recover when the full truth of your
organization is withheld from you, at the outset?
Blaming the victim is vicious and cruel in such circumstances.
I must add this: Someone mentioned there was once a blog (since taken
down) for those interested in recovering from SY. Those who wished to
correspond were invited to describe their stories.
The blog has been taken down.
Here is a caution to anyone in recovery--how do you know your information will be used confidentially?
You dont know that. It could be passed on to someone recruiting for a new entity who would know what you mourn for and miss from your days in SY
and who would know how to invoke that aching nostalgia.
As they said on the old Hill Street Blues, be careful out there. Anonymity is valuable in some cases and this is one of them.
We may have to re-write the history of Siddha and SYDA yoga yet again.
For in addition to sex and money, the friendship with Werner Erhard and appropriation of LGAT techniques from Werner and covert use of those LGAT techniques under the disguise of Hindu forms and ceremonies upon the SY devotees was also at the heart of the secret.
Again, how can you recover if you dont know the full repertoire of the techniques used upon you? If you dont know LGAT stuff was used on you, and you go off thinking it was only the corrupt guru system, you'll have only the partial recipe for the poison brew and seek an incomplete set of antidotes--then blame yourself for not fully recovering???
A scenario to ponder, friends. A scenario to ponder.
In the EST context, you 'got it.'
In the SY context, using a different narrative and socialization, it wouldve been experienced as shaktipat or gurus grace.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:38AM by corboy.
Stuart's website as of this morning (june 29, 2008) mentioned this
[home.comcast.net]
"LGATs (Large Group Awareness Trainings) were all the rage when I was growing up in the 70s. They include Werner Erhart's now-defunct est, its successor The Forum (aka Landmark Education), Lifespring, and many spin-offs. I've never attended these, **though the many Intensives I experienced with Swami Muktananda were heavily influenced by Werner, and gave me a strong taste of the group dynamic**"(double asterisks added for editorial emphasis by C)
The Truth about Human Potential Seminars is a blog covering the LGATs; The Awareness Page offers many links they say will help Awareness consumers make conscious informed decisions; and Rick Ross' site has the video Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus, a 2004 French TV report with hidden cameras inside an actual Landmark training.(end of quote from Stuarts site)
However, I invite interested readers to go to Marta Szabo's The Guru Looked Good blog, and read the comments that follow Chapter 38. For there are, on this comments thread, additional discussions about Werner and Muktananda. Please read the whole thing and come to your own conclusions.
[the-guru-looked-good.blogspot.com]
Begin reading with comment
P.S. Warm Bears turned into Atma Prabha. New name, just as lame.
August 28, 2007 11:58 AM
Anonymous said...
Then, shoulder your stamina and keep reading, preferably to the end. If you dont have the time to do it all in one session at least read through all the stuff included on August 29th
Its interesting that in the middle of this very upsetting and enlightening
discussion someone anonymous suddenly recalled how wonderful the breakfasts at SY were and began requesting recipes. This gustatory nostalgia kick triggered a discussion of recipes...but after the detour, the discussion did return and remained on the subject matter at hand.
Toward the end of that thread, someone else stated, quite eloquently and convincingly that anonymity was necessary.
Now, at this point it is worth raising a very interesting question.
Suppose you, a seeker, are led to believe, from what you see, from what you hear, and from what you are TOLD, that you are getting involved with an authentic Hindu guru, Baba Muktananda, who teaches hatha yoga, and the guidelines include celibacy for singles and monogamy for married couples?
You're not paranoid. You are trustful, this is the 1970s. The bad stuff about cults hasnt happened yet. You trust that what you are being told is truthful.
But you NOT told, as a newbie, that Baba Muktananda is actually a tantric practitioner, in tradition that even in India, conceals the practice of sexual tantra behind a facade of clean living and hatha yoga, practiced by celibate monks are monagamously married householders.
www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/caldwell.sarah.pdf 'The Heart of the Secret: A Personal and Scholarly Encounter With Shakta Tantrism in Siddha Yoga by Sarah Caldwell.
You, the beginner are not told that Baba is showing one face to the public and doing something quite different in private and that he feels entitled to use force and sexual exploitation as if he were a feudal prince.
Not being told any of this, how can you give informed consent when you first show up at the ashram door?
Two, you are not told that Baba Muktananda, this allegedly Hindu guru, happens to have become friends with Werner Erhard, who has learned a bundle of very powerful methods to induce powerful mood changes, regression and bonding by applying these covert techniques to an entire group of people, in a tightly scripted set of heavy duty weekend exercises. And that Werner has learned these from Scientology, from American high pressure sales techniques, and from all kinds of research on group behavior done by the US government.
And suppose your guru is learning to use these powerful but NON HINDU NON YOGA techniques during his intensives, but is letting you assume, trustfully, that this is merely traditional Kashmiri Shaivite practice, not a combination of Baba's teachings and Werner Erhard's tips?
When you leave, you will think you have been affected, perhaps harmed by an abusive guru and a corrupt Asian misogynistic tradition that disastrously
re enacted feudalism in a US setting.
You may be unaware BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT TOLD THIS BY BABA MUKTANANDA that you also were impacted by the powerful methods shared with him by Werner Erhard and EST.
Now, imagine a person ill, who thinks he or she is ill with food poisoning.
The person doesnt know it but he is not only suffering from bacterial food poisoning, but some rat poison happened to fall into the soup.
If the treating physician precribes only an antibiotic and doesnt see enough to warrant ordering a toxicology panel of tests, the effects of the rat poison will continue to do their damage.
A survivor of SY may need treatment not only for guru-poisoning but possibly for LGAT poisoning, if LGAT methods were incorporated into the SY bundle at an early stage in its development.
So far, the SY discussions seem to center just on the role of the guru and the organization and just or or two have mentioned how devotee psychotherapists were suborned.
But so far no one seems to have explored whether the difficulties some have in getting recovery from SY is not from weakness of will, but perhaps, perhaps, perhaps from being exposed to powerful induction methods derived from LGATs...and never being told they were exposed to this.
THis would counter the invidious assertion that people go into cults because of their own cravings.
WHat if you're not told up front, the full range of techniques and their actual origins.
At least people who KNOW they went to a specific LGAT such as Landmark or EST and decide afterward that they didnt like it, will know exactly where to go and on which section of the RR.com discussion board to go, in order to discuss its impact.
But what if someone was affected in a seemingly Hindu yoga organization by techniques derived from the gurus friendship from Werner Erhard, founder of EST, and they are not told this? THey wont know to look up LGAT when looking for recovery resources.
See how complicated and hard it is to recover when the full truth of your
organization is withheld from you, at the outset?
Blaming the victim is vicious and cruel in such circumstances.
I must add this: Someone mentioned there was once a blog (since taken
down) for those interested in recovering from SY. Those who wished to
correspond were invited to describe their stories.
The blog has been taken down.
Here is a caution to anyone in recovery--how do you know your information will be used confidentially?
You dont know that. It could be passed on to someone recruiting for a new entity who would know what you mourn for and miss from your days in SY
and who would know how to invoke that aching nostalgia.
As they said on the old Hill Street Blues, be careful out there. Anonymity is valuable in some cases and this is one of them.
We may have to re-write the history of Siddha and SYDA yoga yet again.
For in addition to sex and money, the friendship with Werner Erhard and appropriation of LGAT techniques from Werner and covert use of those LGAT techniques under the disguise of Hindu forms and ceremonies upon the SY devotees was also at the heart of the secret.
Again, how can you recover if you dont know the full repertoire of the techniques used upon you? If you dont know LGAT stuff was used on you, and you go off thinking it was only the corrupt guru system, you'll have only the partial recipe for the poison brew and seek an incomplete set of antidotes--then blame yourself for not fully recovering???
A scenario to ponder, friends. A scenario to ponder.
In the EST context, you 'got it.'
In the SY context, using a different narrative and socialization, it wouldve been experienced as shaktipat or gurus grace.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:38AM by corboy.
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