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RandomStu

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helpme2times
Just how are any of us using force here, Stu? We are speaking up. That is all.

When you advocate brining in the government to shut down "unlicensed abusive group psychotherapy" (as is being done repeatedly in this thread), you're advocating the use of force. The government has men with guns, and it operates with force and threats of force. (Katie's org, on the other hand, doesn't force anything on anyone.) Just because you're getting someone else to hold the gun... doesn't mean that you're not responsible for the force used by your proxies. Do you want people to have the freedom to choose whatever religion or therapy they like for themselves? Or do you want to forcibly impose your choice on everyone? It's a very important issue for society, and it shouldn't be denied or glossed over by pretending that calling in the government is no different from "speaking up."

There's a huge difference between expressing personal opinions about the teachings... and calling in government force against it. Why not be clear that you're crossing a line here?

Stuart
[stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com]

So would you do away with policing of injuries and injustices? That is what you seem to be advocating. Which is of course your right. You can say whatever you want.

And so can those of us who have felt deeply harmed by Ms. Katie's mind control tactics. If our speaking up results in her being subjected to societal controls, so be it.

Hey, if her org gets disciplined in any way, she can just do "the work" on it. It's all God to her.

Which makes me wonder, if you think BK's work is so great, why not just do it re this stuff? BK claims that is where everything needs to be addressed, from within.

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RandomStu
Our "cherished beliefs" have a most profound affect on our lives. It's entirely in our own power, and our own responsibility, to examine these beliefs, observe their effects, and decide whether or hold them or question them. Focusing on external boogiemen like Katie... is denial of this power, and avoidance of this responsibility.

And yet you are treating this forum as an "external boogieman".

If you cannot practice what you preach, what can you expect from us?!

> So would you do away with policing of injuries and injustices?

"Policing" should be limited to people who force things on you. If you followed Katie without being forced to do so, then I say you should police yourself.

> And so can those of us who have felt deeply harmed by Ms. Katie's mind control tactics. If our speaking up results in her being subjected to societal controls, so be it.

There's a distinction between "speaking up" about your opinions, and trying to force your opinions on others (through appealing to government policing). It's a vital distinction, that you're trying to gloss over, as if it were nothing. Note that in framing this as your being "deeply harmed by Ms Katie's mind control tactics," you're avoiding any examination at all of your own role in whatever happened. Don't you have any control over your own mind? Do you claim that Ms Katie controled your thinking, like an alien implanting things in your mind entirely against your will?

> Hey, if her org gets disciplined in any way, she can just do "the work" on it. It's all God to her.

It's hypocritical for you to use this viewpoint when it suits your agenda, and attack it when it doesn't.

> Which makes me wonder, if you think BK's work is so great, why not just do it re this stuff?.

Which makes me wonder... since I've never said a single word about BK's work being "so great"... how did that idea get in your head? Perhaps your projecting your own conflicted ideas onto me.

Stuart



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 12:08AM by rrmoderator.

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RandomStu
Stuart
[stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com]

Stuart, I've just taken a quick look at your blog. In your most recent entry, you say:

"It's possible that all of this is an unconscious way to balance a tendency to be a blind follower, if I don't make an effort to avoid it. I say this not just because of the time I spent with an guru. It also comes from watching my mind in group situations. I note, for example, that when I meditate or chant or do some practice in a group situation, it's practically automatic for me to follow along with what everyone else is doing."

Since you admit to a "tendency to be a blind follower" (as well as to the power of group dynamics), is it not possible that you are blinded by Byron Katie?

Interestingly enough, Steven Sashen can be found commenting on your blog entry.

As an aside... You mention a belief in karma. What if karma isn't true?!

(indexing reference)
_________________________________________________

Losing the Moon: Byron Katie Dialogues on Non-Duality, Truth and Other Illusions (Paperback)
by Byron Katie (Author), Ellen J. Mack (Editor)

Byron Katie - ebook - Losing The Moon (complete).pdf

Product download Details
Paperback Torrent
Publisher: The Work Foundation, Inc.; First Printing edition (1998)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1890246069
ISBN-13: 978-1890246068

Its almost impossible to have any type of debate with more advanced Byron Katie promoters for one main reason.
A lack of intellectual honesty.

No question, entry level Byron Katie folks are really caught up in the whirlwind and have Lost The Moon...as Byron Katie says.

But the more advanced Byron Katie people are on a different level.

One thing about this forum, for example, is that most people who post here really are being HONEST with themselves, admitting their mistakes and errors in the past, and trying to think things through with intellectual honesty.

But you bascially never see that with more senior Byron Katie folks. If anything, their motto seems to be deception and denial.
One could list 100 examples, but here is one.

Byron Katie claims to have attained Nirvana at the foot of a cockroach, as she tells her "origin myth" over and over.
But, Byron Katie runs a series of LGAT seminars full of TECHNIQUES from other people's LGAT seminars.
So on the most basic level of intellectual honesty, any person would have to admit that does not make any sense.
Byron Katie clearly copied those methods from all of the other LGAT seminars.
They did not come from the cockroach.

So someone is lying their ass off.

But the senior Byron Katie bloggers, (and many of them are "covert" in that they don't even admit they promote Byron Katie,and even deny it), these folks just DENY the most basic contradictions and obvious falsehoods comig from Byron Katie.
Its a conscious absense of intellectual integrity.

Steven Sashen is a prime example of this, as he clearly understands certain ideas, like his $100 Challenge. [forum.culteducation.com]
But he absolutely refuses to apply this to Byron Katie.

Its a strange and damaging mentality that Byron Katie teaches. Its root is DECEPTION, self-deception, and deception of others.
There is no intellectual honesty in that system, so those involved in it are "locked in".
And its not possible to "reason" with unreason and intellectual dishonesty.

stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com

Stuart:
Stop trying to play insulting mind-games with honest and decent members of this forum who are expressing their views about how Byron Katie has hurt them, and Byron Katies abusive methods have been explained in great detail.
Byron Katie is practicing Thought Reform and NLP, and dozens of other techniques. Lying about it does not change reality, unlike what Byron Katie teaches.
Your comment about "alien implants" are insulting and obnoxious and dishonest.

These threads details Byron Katie's TECHNIQUES VERY CAREFULLY. Stop the denial and lies and deflection and distortion.
There is a link above called "Mind Control" which is about the methods and techniques these people like Byron Katie use on their victims.

You are clearly here to promote Byron Katie by trying to use denial and deflection from the facts. Byron Katie claims The Work can ELIMINATE DEPRESSION and ELIMINATE STRESS. That is probably an illegal claim, no different than saying "Eliminate Cancer", and some crooks make those claims, and many of them get into serious trouble for it, unless they do it from Mexico.

RandomStu:

You seem to be doing a bit of victim bashing here.

Why attempt to blame those hurt by enlightenment salespeople, rather than discussing the apparent "scam" such salespeople may be running?

What about the responsibility that teachers have regarding their students?

Don't they have any responsibility?

When teachers hurt people they may be subject to legal consequences.

Reporting scams to law enforcement is an option in a society governed by laws.

Law enforcement authorities then decide how to proceed, i.e. if a law has been broken.

No guns need be involved.

There is also civil action, which can be taken through a lawsuit.

People under undue influence may not be able to ojectively "examine [such] beliefs, observe [the] effects, and decide whether or not to hold them or question them."

Essentially, cult leaders can effectively shut down a person's objective thinking process through the manipulation of their "beliefs" and the subsequent effects, which often precludes questioning the teacher in any meaningful way.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 12:03AM by rrmoderator.

Also, RandomStu has other websites as well.

My So-Called Spiritual Life
[home.comcast.net]

He does have a promotional link to Byron Katie on this webpage, as well as to Steven Sashen who does Byron Katie's "The Work" professionally (for money).

Ironically, he also points toward information about LGAT's while saying he has never attended an LGAT, while pointing to critical information about Landmark?

Well, perhaps it would be helpful to pay attention to people who have attended many LGAT's and were deeply involved in that area for many years.

Is Stuart aware that its possible that Byron Katie learned many of her techniques from Werner Erhard and the Landmark Forum? (among many others).
Byron Katie and Werner Erhard have an almost identical "Transformation Story" in structure.
And Byron Katie even uses the "Story" schtick to this day.

Byron Katie is running one of the most blatant series of LGAT's on the market today.
All the while acting like a "savant" and basically playing dumb. Come on, a teenager could see that Byron Katie is play-acting, while in reality is pulling all the strings.

by the way, a simple internet and Usenet search show Stuart Resnick has been debating this stuff on the Internets for a decade or more!

There is no point or interest in debating the philosophy of non-dualism, or whatever. That's not the point, if there is even a point to it, which I doubt.

The point here is the deceptive LGAT style techniques being used by Byron Katie.

The manipulation. The lies.
The outright deceptions.
The 100 Day Training indoctrination programs.
The money. the "gifts".
The lack of even basic ethics or morality.

Its not about the "story".
Its about the BS, and the money, and the methods.