In the Guruphiliac blog entry, in which Byron Katie's 9-day "School" is criticized, an apologist writes in a comment attempting to discredit the criticisms. I'm copying the apologist's comments here in italics, and adding my questions/reactions in bold.

Perception is everything.
Oh really?

My experience of the School for The Work was the antithesis of what was posted.
Does this negate what others have reported? When did you do the school anyway? Was it years ago and might things have changed a little, or quite a bit, over time?

The disgruntled anti-cultist wrote: 1. A forced 36 hour fast.
Nope, not forced. Everything is presented at the school as a suggestion; and you're free, and encouraged, to do what you need to do to stay healthy. Diabetics, for example, and those on medications, needed only to ask for food, and all those with medical and psychological conditions were asked to make their conditions known when they registered, and to be responsible for their own self-care, as in life.
According to a report on this forum, people showed up to breakfast one day, only to find no food on the tables. Instead there were signs that said, "Who would you be without your story?" There was no advance notice of a fast. It was suddenly sprung upon them. That's voluntary?

2. A day long "outing" where we were left to beg for food among homeless people in the streets of Los Angeles. We were instructed not to take any ID, or anything with us but the clothes we had on.
That's true; and no one held a gun to my head to do this.
So holding a gun to a person's head is the only inappropriate example of unsavory influence? And what if, in the course of getting unexpectedly dumped into a bad L.A. neighborhood for a whole day, someone in the school had gotten robbed or otherwise harmed? School attendees sign a legal disclaimer before the start of the school. So, no recourse if they're harmed.

3. A rich organic diet that sent many people's bodies into shock.
No one forced to eat rich food; there was salad and plain food available at every meal.
What about all the reported vomiting? What was up with that? Ah, this will get addressed next...

Vomiting was a regular occurrence,
I saw maybe two people vomit in the two schools I attended as a participant.
So at this person's school, vomiting is also admitted to. But the person tries to downplay this with their "maybe two" qualification. So maybe there were more? Even if a couple of people were vomiting at this person's school, and A LOT of vomiting was reported at another one, doesn't this seem rather "off"?

and was offered as "evidence" of cleansing, and of how powerful The Work really is.
I never heard anything like that.
So that means it didn't happen?

4. Long days with brief breaks for meals. (7 am to 11:00 pm most days.)
We never went to 11:00 pm and the meal breaks were of normal length - usually an hour or longer.
How long DID the days last with this person's school? We're not told. I checked the Kripalu Yoga Center's current catalogue, since they are soon sponsoring a weekend-length "Loving What Is" workshop. It says there that the program has an "extended" schedule, and so anyone attending it should NOT plan on any extracurricular activities, which are normally able to be enjoyed at most other programs at Kripalu - some downtime for a bit of sightseeing, maybe a massage, etc. Hmmm.

5. Long, intense confessional sessions.
Confessional if you wanted to confess something, sure.
So he/she isn't arguing with this one.

6. Deep, excessive probing into one's past traumas. (She used violent Korn music to trigger our worst memories.)
And it was repeated that "no one has to do this exercise" for the more intense stuff. (Korn and the other musicians whose music is used at Katie's schools are compensated, by the way; her son is in the recording business.)
But people were urged to always come to the room where "The Work" was being done - for the entire, very lengthy day. Add peer pressure and the dictum that one is not "doing their school" properly if they don't follow all the "simple instructions"... It would probably be hard to stay away.

7. No contact with family or the outside world. (We turned our cell phones into the staff.)
Voluntarily. As suggested. Plenty of people kept their phones and made calls home.
As said above, maybe that was true of the school this person attended, but might things have gotten stricter since then?

8. Not allowed to wear make-up, to exercise, or to eat outside of the diet given.
Not "not allowed." Those were the suggestions. The idea is not to revert to addictions to avoid questioning stressful thoughts.
This person is making light of the incredible power of group dynamics/peer pressure, milieu control, etc. Anyway, since when is wearing makeup or exercising an "addiction"? What does engaging in such things have to do with questioning thoughts?

9. Eating meals and taking breaks in complete silence.
Except for those of us who are unable to shut up, and I'm one. :)
Someone reported that people were routinely "shushed" by BK's assistants if they tried to talk during meals.

10. Going at least 2 full days as a "silent one", unallowed to talk with others.
Suggested; not enforced. I never did more than one day, and I cheated. I got my graduation certificate anyway. The purpose of this is to notice how you want to talk, be seen, bla bla. It worked for me, I noticed all right.
Why would this person need to "cheat" when they are claiming the school is so wholesome? Could the "cheating" be a healthy intuitive response to the rampant controls placed upon them, that might help them retain their individuality, their ability to think for themselves?

11. Being invited to criticize Katie and The School, and those who did were silently, subtly shunned by the group and Katie.
Shunned? Not me, and I'm no sychophant. I speak my mind. There was no "penalty" for doing so. In fact, I noticed that peoples' suggestions were implemented, more often than not.
What about attendees who aren't so secure within themselves? Byron Katie's organization sure seems to target vulnerable, suffering people. I ought to know, as I'm one of them!

12. Having every doubt and concern about what was going on at The School questioned and "turned around", until no one could trust their own perceptions anymore.
Can't trust your perceptions at face value - neither the negative ones nor the positive ones. That's the point - to notice that it's all perception, changeable, and that some perceptions cost us a lot.
Can't trust your perceptions? Is that true? And once again, this person says "it's all perception". Is that true? This person seems brainwashed by the Work worldview!

Anyone who doesn't like the school is free to leave, and in fact, a small percentage do. And some of those people, I hear, continue to use The Work on their own. How can a simple practice that you can do by yourself be considered a cult?
If the school is so wonderful, why would a small percentage leave? And how would this person know this information? Sounds like someone on staff. Anyway, if a school attendee has been promised an "end to suffering" and has plunked down more than $4000 for the school, AND they know that once they're in school, they will get NO REFUND... that sure could put pressure on people to stay!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 12:09AM by helpme2times.

Okay, I have some friends who know a lot about the internet (which I don't), so I asked for their help saving those pages. Apparently, someone has already updated the google cache for BK's webpages.

HOWEVER... this is the good news for anyone concerned... there is such a thing as the internet archive, where ALL of BK's webpages are permanently and forever logged and stored. These archives can never be changed or erased.

[web.archive.org]
[web.archive.org]

So, we don't need to worry about losing that evidence. It will always be there.


-jj

Quote
The Anticult
Just to be sure everyone understands...here are the objective technical facts about the removal of that important text from the webpage mentioned above.

(Google indexes websites constantly, and updates them, and keeps a "cache" which lags a bit behind. Ask some techie to explain that if you need to.)

By pressing the link given above and again here,
[209.85.135.104]
anyone in the world can see how the Byron Katie webpage looked on that past date, which is stamped at the top of the page. It says "This is G o o g l e's cache [...]as retrieved on 23 Feb 2008 19:13:19 GMT"
So the link above is the webpage on Feb 23, 2008 at that exact time. That page has the full-text from above which literally DEFINES the Work, and its "life-changing results", and then they give that list of claims shown above. (as mentioned, that same text was copied according to Google to about 201 other web sites).

Now if one goes to that same webpage on Feb 29, 2008, all of that text has now been "disappeared".
[www.thework.com]

So that is a technical, objective fact, that cannot be altered.

Now WHY was this page changed, after that date? Why would the very definition of The Work, and the list of its "benefits" be removed, at the same time questions are being asked about them?
Someone mentioned a senior facilitator of The Work wrote elsewhere that she read the threads in this forum. Perhaps we can find where and when she wrote that.
Is it all a coincidence?
Or is making certain types of alleged medical claims, psychotherapy or psychology claims extremely serious, if an investigation is conducted?
How serious?

Even Dr. Phil had a complaint laid against him for allegedly practicing psychology without a license with the California Board of Psychology.
"TMZ has obtained a copy of a complaint against Dr. Phil which was lodged with the California Board of Psychology, alleging the TV doc was illegally practicing without a license when he paid a visit to one Britney Spears."
"Practicing without a license is a felony in California."
The info and complaint is here.
[www.tmz.com]

So why was that text making those statements removed? Anyone want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn?
Is the text coming back? Where did it go?
Will the same text only be spoken now,a nd not written down? Its all a big mystery as of now.
Are there any other webpages which are having information removed? Why? Where's the fire?

So that all remains to be determined.

IMPORTANT POINT:
(that being said, that Google cache page could be updated literally any minute, or requested taken down, from an "interested party" who does not want the public or anyone else to see that webpage. So one would be wise to SAVE a copy of that page for reference immediately.)

As a matter of fact, maybe someone could SAVE a copy of that page with their browser, and then UPLOAD it into this thread, using the "Attach a file" button, on the bottom left. This way it can be preserved here permanently and viewed by the public. Otherwise it could vanish at any moment, and the evidence would be gone from public eyes. It could be "disappeared" too.



_________________________________________________
If any citizen has any concerns or questions about psychological issues, they can make a confidential complaint to the California Board of Psychology.(see posts above) [www.psychboard.ca.gov]
_________________________________________________

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 02:42AM by jj52.

Regarding the internet archives..

Stuff can be removed from that, too. There's a joint in town Ive been tracking
for years, and they changed their web page 3 times in about 5 years and scrubbed all info about former web pages from the Internet archives.

So...whatever you wanna save...make your own files.

Quote
helpme2times
In the Guruphiliac blog entry, in which Byron Katie's 9-day "School" is criticized, an apologist writes in a comment attempting to discredit the criticisms. I'm copying the apologist's comments here in italics, and adding my questions/reactions in bold.

Thanks, helpme2times! I've got some things to say in response to this, too. This gives me another chance to argue some things out, and get my own head back! My responses are also in bold.
_____________________________
Perception is everything.

What kind of maniacal philosophy is this? Oh... whoops... Byron Katie's!
Yes, according to Byron Katie, perception is everything... it's all there is. Everything is just a projection of the mind. Evidently, this person has swallowed BK's philosophy hook, line, and sinker. What can we expect from him/her now? Let's see... based on my experience... we can expect him/her to defend Byron Katie, distort facts, ignore reality, and to tangle him/herself in her own words by failing to practice The Work in all that defensiveness.

The disgruntled anti-cultist wrote: 1. A forced 36 hour fast.
Nope, not forced. Everything is presented at the school as a suggestion; and you're free, and encouraged, to do what you need to do to stay healthy. Diabetics, for example, and those on medications, needed only to ask for food, and all those with medical and psychological conditions were asked to make their conditions known when they registered, and to be responsible for their own self-care, as in life.

First of all, although I may be disgruntled, I'm not an anti-cultist. My participation on this forum has been solely focused on Byron Katie. I know very little about any other cults, and I certainly am not an activist of any kind. I merely spoke from my experience. Labeling me an "anti-cultist" is an interesting (and ineffective) way to try to deconstruct my credibility, considering this comment was left on an anti-guru blog.

It is also interesting that this person abruptly changed the subject from the fast to diabetics and self-care. Very smooth evasion and diversion, although it almost appears to be an answer, doesn't it? This is not an answer about the nature of the fast. The following is an excerpt from Margaret Thaler Singer, PhD on the F.A.C.T. website (italics added by me):

"Thought reform is accomplished through the use of psychological and environmental control processes that do not depend on physical coercion. Today's thought reform programs are sophisticated, subtle, and insidious, creating a psychological bond that in many ways is far more powerful than gun-at-the-head methods of influence. The effects generally lose their potency when the control processes are lifted or neutralized in some way. That is why most Korean War POWs gave up the content of their prison camp indoctrination programs when they came home and why many cultists leave their groups if they spend a substantial amount of time away from the group or have an opportunity to discuss their doubts with in intimate (11).

Contrary to popular misconceptions (some intentional on the part of naysayers), a thought reform program does not require physical confinement and does not produce robots. Nor does it permanently capture the allegiance of all those exposed to it. In fact, some persons do not respond at all to the programs, while others retain the contents for varied periods of time. In sum, thought reform should be regarded as "situationally adaptive belief change that is not subtle and is environment-dependent". (8,10)"

So, yes, it was FORCED. It's amazing to me how BK-apologists go through these strange contortions to try to convince themselves (and others) that there was no Thought Reform going on, even though we were there to do The Work... which is marketed as a benign mode of... THOUGHT REFORM. Hello?

2. A day long "outing" where we were left to beg for food among homeless people in the streets of Los Angeles. We were instructed not to take any ID, or anything with us but the clothes we had on.

That's true; and no one held a gun to my head to do this.

Aside from this being a ridiculous evasion of the issue, the fact that no one held a gun to this person's head is actually more evidence of the Thought Reform going on. I'm sure he meant to disprove that, but failed. Again:

"Today's thought reform programs are sophisticated, subtle, and insidious, creating a psychological bond that in many ways is far more powerful than gun-at-the-head methods of influence. " -Margaret Thaler Singer, PhD (author of "Cults in Our Midst")


3. A rich organic diet that sent many people's bodies into shock.
No one forced to eat rich food; there was salad and plain food available at every meal.

Is this person just very ignorant? The salads were organic. Everything we were served was organic. What does "plain food" mean, anyway? Whatever it was, it was organic. I'm sure BK would confirm this. Please excuse me for using an adjective like "rich" to describe the organic food. I meant it to illustrate how WONDERFUL the food was, but apparently, that was too hard for this person to comprehend. Since when are salads not "rich"... in vitamins and minerals? Everything we were served at The School was rich--that's my opinion-- and organic-- that is a FACT. This person can argue with that reality all he/she wants, and I'm still not buying it. I notice that he did not address the issue of sending people's bodies into shock.

Vomiting was a regular occurrence,

I saw maybe two people vomit in the two schools I attended as a participant.

He/she saw "maybe" two people vomit in the two schools he/she attended as a participant. Well, I saw no one vomit, I only saw three different very large, smoldering piles of puke in the bathroom floor. Prior to witnessing the piles of puke, I had heard BK mention to the entire group that people were puking on 3 separate days. She said that her staff had reported to her about all the vomiting, and congratulated the vomiters on their progress. That's at least 4 different days that I was aware of vomiting going on. She told us that The Work was powerful, and was the cause of the vomiting. So, as a participant, I wouldn't expect this person to have seen anyone vomiting...I never did... but he/she acknowledges that as a participant he did see "maybe" two. Can you imagine what the staff must have seen, then?

and was offered as "evidence" of cleansing, and of how powerful The Work really is.

I never heard anything like that.

How convenient. He/she saw "maybe" two people vomit, but never heard any explanation of why it was happening... and he/she didn't think that was a little strange??? Obviously, we were not at the same School, OR this person was not paying very much attention.

4. Long days with brief breaks for meals. (7 am to 11:00 pm most days.)

We never went to 11:00 pm and the meal breaks were of normal length - usually an hour or longer.

Well, I wonder how long this person's sessions did go? To 10:45 pm? Was this person even paying attention to the time? May I also point out that in a 17 hour day, 3 one hour breaks for meals makes the breaks awfully BRIEF. Either this person was completely out of it, or his/her School was really "lacking." We did go to 11, or nearly 11 most nights. Because this person had a different experience than I did, is that supposed to disprove anything?


5. Long, intense confessional sessions.
Confessional if you wanted to confess something, sure.

Long, intense confessional sessions. If you wanted to confess something... because to have 300 people all get up and confess would be TOO LONG. But those sessions were LONG. I suppose the element of "wanting" to is supposed to have some merit here. BK said, "Who needs to do this?" It wasn't about want, it was about "need". People who got up did it because they felt like they needed to purge. It was all part of the Thought Reform program. So, not everyone did it. What does that prove? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

6. Deep, excessive probing into one's past traumas. (She used violent Korn music to trigger our worst memories.)

And it was repeated that "no one has to do this exercise" for the more intense stuff. (Korn and the other musicians whose music is used at Katie's schools are compensated, by the way; her son is in the recording business.)

Sure, BK told us that no one has to do it, and several people got up and left. BUT, we were not told what the exercise was. We had no idea what we were about to experience. The people who left were afraid. We'd already had so many things sprung on us unexpectedly, I can't say that I blame them. The Korn song was a very explicit account of someone being molested by his mother. We were told to think about the worst thing that's ever happened to us. The song grew angry, violently angry. And then, people got up one by one and had big emotional purges in front of the entire group. Of course, it was just those who "needed" to. And, who really cares about whether or not they are compensated for their music? This music thing is COMMON at LGATs, and I offered it as evidence that BKs School is, in fact, an LGAT brand of Thought Reform. The fact that people were allowed to leave has no bearing on the fact that BK uses music to brainwash the majority who stayed.


7. No contact with family or the outside world. (We turned our cell phones into the staff.)
Voluntarily. As suggested. Plenty of people kept their phones and made calls home

What really confuses me about this person is how he/she acts like the "big eye in the sky"... knowing exactly how many people vomited, and how many people kept their phones and made calls home. Perhaps he/she saw people doing this. However, what I saw was very different. Of the people that I talked to during the School, not a single one of them had kept their phones or personal items. NOT ONE. I saw only one woman with food that was not from BK's organic service. So, my experience would tell me that the MAJORITY of people did not keep their cell phones. How many is "plenty" anyway? And, did this person keep his/her cell phone? And if not, WHY?

8. Not allowed to wear make-up, to exercise, or to eat outside of the diet given.
Not "not allowed." Those were the suggestions. The idea is not to revert to addictions to avoid questioning stressful thoughts.

It's pretty clear that this person is totally entrenched in the mind control. Those were "suggestions", right? Just suggestions... which are very powerful when the audience is being induced into a hypnotic trance, and left questioning their own thoughts! What does make up and exercise have to do with addictions? No make up... is to leave the person feeling exposed. No exercise... is to heighten the trance. This person knows less than I do about Thought Reform.

9. Eating meals and taking breaks in complete silence.
Except for those of us who are unable to shut up, and I'm one. :)

Well, no wonder he/she missed so much that going on at the School! He/she must have had the staff buzzing around him/her like flies! They shushed everyone who talked in the dining room where I dined.

10. Going at least 2 full days as a "silent one", unallowed to talk with others.
Suggested; not enforced. I never did more than one day, and I cheated. I got my graduation certificate anyway. The purpose of this is to notice how you want to talk, be seen, bla bla. It worked for me, I noticed all right.

It's baffling... like ralpher, this person is offering their noncompliance to the program as a defense of The School. What would it be like if this person had actually worked the program?? The purpose was to notice things, all right. I spent several days in silence, and I noticed A LOT. I noticed all of the things this person apparently missed. I wonder if this person notices how he/she wants to be seen as independent, and incapable of being involved in a Thought Reform program without her consent? I wonder if he/she notices how his/her noncompliance to the program, and his/her ability to do that, keeps him/her locked in total denial? I wonder if he/she notices how manipulative he/she is?



11. Being invited to criticize Katie and The School, and those who did were silently, subtly shunned by the group and Katie.
Shunned? Not me, and I'm no sychophant. I speak my mind. There was no "penalty" for doing so. In fact, I noticed that peoples' suggestions were implemented, more often than not.

He/she speaks his/her mind, and saw no penalties for it. I guess this person really missed the "subtle" and "silent" things... too busy talking, I guess. I also speak my mind. Luckily, it is my own mind that I'm speaking here, and not the cult-personality. I guess this comment is supposed to make me look like a "sycophant" now? And who said or implied that this person was a sycophant? And what do parasites have to do with repercussions of criticizing BK? BK-ists are MASTERs of diversion and evasion, just like their mentor.

12. Having every doubt and concern about what was going on at The School questioned and "turned around", until no one could trust their own perceptions anymore.
Can't trust your perceptions at face value - neither the negative ones nor the positive ones. That's the point - to notice that it's all perception, changeable, and that some perceptions cost us a lot.

I would say that "can't trust your perceptions at face value" is more about this person, than it is about people in general. This is a prime example of the very things I've been describing about BK-ologists. Apparently, this person can't trust his/her perceptions at face value. And, that IS the point. Umm... is this person supposed to be proving me wrong... or right?

It seems to me like this person really sees him/herself as above anyone else who doesn't "get it"... who doesn't see things his/her way. And, feels compelled to make us all feel ignorant for believing what we perceive... as if insanity and self-doubt were on the moral high-ground. That's just it... BK trains people not to believe what they perceive.

So, if you perceive that something isn't right at the School... don't trust it. If you perceive that BK is not what she claims to be... dont' trust it. If you perceive that you are subtly being shunned... don't trust it. If you perceive that there's something wrong with people vomiting... don't trust it. No matter what you perceive going on, you're not supposed to trust it, but question it. Distrust yourself. Believe BK. Fall in line. Argue with reality. Don't love what is. Make it all up. Live in fantasy land. Defend BK. Contradict yourself! Be "open" and give it another try... another few thousand dollars for another School!

And when someone like me just boldly trusts my perceptions and speaks my mind... the weirdos come out of the woodwork to try to make me stop perceiving and pointing out the things that they have been trained ignore.


Anyone who doesn't like the school is free to leave, and in fact, a small percentage do. And some of those people, I hear, continue to use The Work on their own. How can a simple practice that you can do by yourself be considered a cult?

Well, I suppose a simple practice that you could do by yourself would not be considered a cult. No one made that claim here.

However, a systematic and effective form of Thought Reform that is introduced to people on deceptive terms, which then leads them to Large Group Awareness Trainings where more intense and effective methods of Thought Reform are employed without the participants' awareness, and often leads to forms of dissociation and a breakdown of the sense of self, along the participant's perception of reality...

Well, now that could easily be considered a cult.
Congratulations to those people who had the strength to get out early!
Oh, and by the way... where did this person get her information from? An outside source? Or BK-ists?


The more I hear people defending BK and The School, the more I'm convinced that it is what it is:

An LGAT cult.


-jj


"When you argue with reality you lose- but only 100 percent of the time." -Byron Katie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 04:44AM by jj52.

corboy,

Okay... you're right. Dang! A lot of the archives are already empty!

So... what are they trying to hide?

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 04:41AM by jj52.

Quote
corboy
Regarding the internet archives..
Stuff can be removed from that, too. There's a joint in town Ive been tracking
for years, and they changed their web page 3 times in about 5 years and scrubbed all info about former web pages from the Internet archives.

So...whatever you wanna save...make your own files.

Corboy, that is absolutely correct. MAKE YOUR OWN COMPLETE COPIES from numerous sources.
[www.archive.org]
"The Internet Archive is not interested in offering access to Web sites or other Internet documents whose authors do not want their materials in the collection."

It very easy for the owner of the page content to scrub it clean as freshly laundered $100 bills. One thing that is Voluntary, is the Internet Archive! That is Voluntary!

As a matter of fact there does not appear to be any references to Rochelle Laudenslager in the Internet Archive for the Byron Katie website. Removed by request?

Not only that, Scientology has had the Archive remove OTHER peoples pages from the archive.
[www.news.com]
"Buckling under pressure from the Church of Scientology, the Internet Archive has removed a church critic's Web site from its system."

That being said, this is a good example of how NOT to think like Byron Katie teaches, and to operate from factual evidence. Just because webpages are not in the Archive, does not mean it was taken down. It can be blocked at source by the webmaster, there can be formatting errors which block pages from being archived, etc.

But that being said, when single pages, websites, and incriminating evidence are removed on certain dates, that would show conscious motive for deception.

Quote
helpme2times
In the Guruphiliac blog entry, in which Byron Katie's 9-day "School" is criticized, an apologist writes in a comment attempting to discredit the criticisms. I'm copying the apologist's comments here in italics, and adding my questions/reactions in bold.

Yes, that clearly is someone who is manipulating the Byron Katie system using the ANTITHESIS tactic, as he/she even stated!
Note also how that person starts with a known FALSE Ad hominem? They call that person an "anti-cultist", which that person CLEARLY IS NOT! They are an actual person who did the BK program 100%, that is obvious, not some fabricated "anti-cultist".
Do you see how that is a broad personal attack without evidence meant to dismiss everything instantly without thinking?
It seems to be what Rick Ross appears to be talking about in his new News. "Cult deprogramming and the “Anti Cult Cult”. (many apologists are now using that tactic constantly)
[www.cultnews.com]

Does that person have any personal integrity or honesty to simply DISMISS those serious claims being made? They clearly do not, they are trying to dismiss the claims. Blame the victim.
Carol Skolnick has done the exact same thing over and over, simply DISMISSING the serious complaints out of hand. Anyone can read where she DISMISSED the $100,000 gift out of hand, as she did everything else. Is that ethical? Is that proper? No it is not, and why does Carol Skolnick keep doing it? Its a technique she is 100% conscious of, its an obvious technique.

It all sounds familiar...DENY the problem exists, and blame the victim.
Is that not what abusers do? Deny, deflect, blame the victim?

Is that person not only a BK Apologist, but perhaps a specifically trained and BK appointed internet Turnaround Artist? (propagandist) Or even a senior certified BK facilitator?

Is that person just simply running the Turnaround on the first-hand reports of the Byron Katie LGAT School? They are doing Thought-Leading, for any BK followers who might come across the report.


By the way guys, doing what you are doing is FANTASTIC. Disputing the nonsense being robotically printed out from the Turnaround process. Its like some type of computer program.
(its actually a complete system of thought-reform, when done in totality, in my view).

But one thing to think about, even though I have not carefully YET read all the Responses to the Turnarounds written, so its just a general comment to consider.
Lets be aware of NOT just doing a Turnaround to the Turnaround. That is what BK teaches, its a mind-trap.
Instead, lets use fact and evidence-based Critical Thinking and analysis to Dispute the false claims being made, like the Carl Sagan Baloney Detection Kit, and other strategies, that are about carefully gathering evidence, proper logic and reason, etc.
I think that is the best way to defeat the Byron Katie Turnaround thought-reform system.

By the way, if a person was completely indocrinated into that Thought System of BK's, and was committed to it as they are trained...its a LOCKED IN system. Its Totalist, as its closed to objective evidence.

They could state a Delusional or false thought..."the moon is made of monkey teeth" or "The Work is a way to end all your stress and suffering".

And if they used the BK Turnaround system, its IMPOSSIBLE to get them out of that delusional false thought. Its DESIGNED to lock-you in, so you CAN'T GET OUT. Try it.
Its a complete Mind-Control system, with even many deeper layers to it. That is just the top-end!

Its utterly diabolical, and dangerous.

Do they care? Really? If so, why do they dismiss everything? No question, the regular loving decent folks at the bottom have just been sucked into it unconsciously.
But NOT the certified facilitators at the top, they know the entire game top to bottom, and that is why they use the techniques to deny, deflect, and blame. They are not victims, they are perpetrators.
They need to look into their own conscience, and ethical system, and start opening their eyes to the damages being done by their methods, or one day they are going to wake-up and find themselves getting off on the power of manipulation. Has it happened already?

Well, I went to Guruphiliac's site to read the comments after what helpme2times posted. Carol Skolnick's comments were really trippy. Someone called her a person more "seasoned" with The Work, and that is really obvious. Here's an "insider's" perspective of what Carol Skolnick had to say:
(Again my comments are in bold.)

I'm a long-time reader and fan of Guruphiliac and I am also a facilitator of The Work.

After visiting Carol's blogsite, where she has posted what appears to be a memorial to Maharishi, and also has a post lauding Eckhart Tolle... I find it very hard to believe that she is a long-time reader and fan of Guruphilliac. Of course, she may have interest in it since her involvement with cult, but who knows? The big question for me is "why did she feel it necessary to announce her long-time support and fandom for Guruphilliac?" (Too Many Details?)

I think it was to establish rapport with Jody and the readers, and is... a miniature, subtle love-bomb in itself... whether it's true or not. It was unnecessary.


I'm reading with interest all the opinions of Byron Katie and The Work that are posted here, and I've also read the "anti-cult" stuff at culteducation.com, where they're now tarring and feathering our Jody. I won't bother to defend him, or Steve S., or Katie, or myself...as if I could; and I realize that nobody is everyone's cuppa chai.

Why did she drop that little bomb about us "tarring and feathering" Jody? Was that to discredit us, or to perhaps... incite some anger and defensiveness in Jody and his fellow readers? Is Carol trying (very discreetly) to win Jody and his readers over? I think so. And what's this "our Jody" thing? Wasn't it one of the people from culteducation.com who originally contacted Jody about BK? But the "our Jody" comment certainly creates an "us-versus-them" mentality with just two little words.

Carol is definitely "seasoned" in The Work.

As far as not bothering to defend these people goes... Well, why would she defend anyone? She is "seasoned" in The Work, after all. She knows very well that her defensiveness is a "sign" that what's being said has some merit, according to BK. If she were to become defensive, she would be responsible for going inside of herself, and finding out if there is any truth at all to what people are saying about BK, etc. She's not going to defend them, because she doesn't want to do that. That's my opinion on the matter.

Also, she knows very well that any judgments she throws out in defensiveness must be turned around to herself. So, while she appears to be very diplomatic in her response... she's really just protecting herself from the double-bind that "seasoned" Workers are bound to through The Work.

However, I would like to clarify a few things about The Work, if I may.

Actually, the issue at hand was not really about The Work. It is about BK and The thought reform School. However, since she is so seasoned in The Work, a nice little diversion and evasion of the issue is to be expected. Clarify away, Carol!

We will now be discussing "The Work", because we have completely left the topic of BK, and avoided Carol's defensiveness. Bravo! Very impressive. Let the proselytyzing begin.

Remember: number one goal of BK missionaries is to get people to do The Work. Forget the rest, just do The Work... get 'em hooked!


>>It seems as though Katie's work is designed to shake up the connection to a personal "story".<<

In part, yes. The way I see it, The Work is a way to expand awareness. A common misconception of The Work is that it is meant to make the client "wrong," i.e. "whatever you believe can't be true." I see it as providing options. I always get to take my old toys back and go home in the end, if I still want them...and sometimes, I do, but most of the time, I'm happier to leave them behind.

Well, I see this forum as a way to expand awareness, as well. I see the people here on this forum sharing their experience and knowledge with each other, and with others, to help others be more aware of Thought Reform, what it is, how it occurs, and how it can affect them... so that they can approach The Work and BK seminars with the ability to make informed decisions. I see this forum as providing people with options. They are certainly free to follow BK, do the Work, and go to the School and take their old toys back in the end, if that's what they still want. But, for most of us, we are much happier to leave The Work, BK, and The Schools behind. Is that so wrong?

Since BK is all about "voluntary" and "choice"... why not let people have more information, and THEN give them the choice?


>>However, because it is NOT allowed to "arise" naturally but, instead,is presented as this "system" for dealing with life's questions, it may be doomed to go the way of other such systems.<<

For me, the awareness that I am not my story actually does arise naturally from inquiry, just as for some people, it arises in meditation. One way is not less "natural" than the other. If you try to force an awareness from the inquiry, it's b.s., it doesn't stay. The same is true of any modality.

Yes, the disconnection from your perception of reality does arise naturally from inquiry, no matter what you call it. If try to force a disconnection with reality through The Work, it's all B.S., and it won't stick. You will end up right back in reality, going:

WHAT THE HELL just happened? What's wrong with me? I need to do more of The Work... or maybe go kill someone!

So, when doing The Work, be sure to take your time, and let it arise "naturally"... then you can stay permanently detached from reality, and you won't ever have to bother with those pesky human feelings again! (Much sarcasm.)

What does she mean by modality? What is The Work a modality of, anyway?

Thought Reform???


The Work can be practiced without any motive to "get" anything other than some clarity, and speaking for myself, this has been the most valuable way to approach it. If I want to become instantly enlightened, or to manipulate others through my supposed "clarity," (i.e. I'll become more loving so that they'll love me), I'm setting myself up for a fall.

Hahahahahaha... So, let me get this straight. When I do The Work, I should want nothing else but "clarity." I shouldn't want safety, or sanity. I shouldn't have a motive to look out for my own well-being. All I have to do is what "clarity"... I suppose her motive for writing this comment was all in the name of "clarity"... right?

And what exactly is "clarity"? Is that the moment when you realize that everything is all your fault, and you feel powerful, and blissful... and are no longer in touch with the part of yourself you just questioned to death?

What would Carol know about manipulating others through her supposed "clarity"? At the very beginning of this comment, she became a loving and devoted fan of her Jody, so that he would love her and ignore the rickross-ers. LOL! She certainly is setting herself up for a fall. No matter how smooth they are, ALL BK-ers eventually hang themselves.


>>Meanwhile, the Katie "questions" might actually prevent alot of people from finding an authentic way of being.<<

After many years of practicing this inquiry, I see myself as showing up more authentically than I ever did, because there is less fear in the equation. Stressful beliefs are fear-based, and when I began to have less investment in the drama, I became less fearful and therefore more available, to myself and others. It's been good to have that reality-check.

HAHAHAHAHAHA... THIS is the most authentic she's ever been? Perhaps a little fear might be healthier, then.

Stressful beliefs are fear-based... what's wrong with that??? Look, if someone had a gun and was threatening to shoot me... the stress that I feel over that might actually save my life. I might be stressed enough to run, or scream for help. That fear might serve me very well in dangerous situation. Then, I might be more available to others... instead of six-feet under. It's been good to have this reality check!

If one answers the questions automatically, mentally, saying what you think you're supposed to say rather than what you genuinely feel, without really steeping in the questions (probably more easily done NOT on a stage with Katie in front of hundreds of people, although I'm able to do that, myself), it's not going to be of much benefit. Practiced as a meditation/contemplation, it's actually a very direct and down-to-earth way of experiencing something akin to what the Ramana-style teachers point to, only you don't need anyone to "transmit" it to you. (As, indeed, they cannot.)

In other words, make sure you are really doing The Work, and not just pretending to do The Work. Being on stage with BK may make it less authentic, so when you see those videos online, just keep in mind that you may not really "getting it." So... doubt what you see, explain it away, and just do The Work, authentically.


If anyone wants to contact me personally with sincere questions and concerns about The Work and the School for The Work (i.e. not personal attacks), I'm happy to answer as best I can.

Ahhh... but she leaves us no contact information, and as far as I can tell... you can't find any on her blogsite either. But, this offer surely does make her look open, objective, and receptive...

And also makes those of us who "attack" people like her personally... who are just seeking clarity... look awfully bad, huh? Nevermind the covert attack on rickross-ers at the beginning of her comment. Always playing that moral-highground card...

And always... COVERT, COVERT, COVERT.

Later on, she challenges the people who argued with her with what Gavin De Becker calls "Typecasting". This is basically where someone accuses you of something, or insinuates something about you in order to get you to prove them wrong by doing the opposite. Basically she says she expects harsh, critical responses. The idea is to shut us all up... so we can prove to her that we are more civil than she has implied that we are.

Other tactics she's used that are in Gavin De Becker's book "The Gift of Fear" are:

Forced teaming. This is where she tries to get the readers to feel like "we are all on the same side here" with "our Jody."
Charm and niceness... obvious. Miniature love-bombing. There's nothing wrong with being charming or nice, unless the motive is to disarm the other person.

It is very freeing for me to be able to go through these comments and find the manipulation. This is the same crap that kept me locked into the loop during and after The School. This is the garbage that kept me doubting and mistrusting my own perception, and delving into The Work trying to "get it."

This is the way they herd the sheep.

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 06:25AM by jj52.

Challenge:

I would love to see the answer to a question put to Carol Skolnick, Steven Sashen, and other overt and covert promoters and facilitators of Byron Katie and The Work.


Tell me some of the things you don't like about The Work?
When was the last time The Work did not work? Tell me about it.
Tell us some of the things you don't like about Byron Katie and her husband.



If anyone gets any type of answer to that question, the prize is some hens' teeth, or horse toes, your Voluntary choice of "gift".

Quote
The Anticult
Lets be aware of NOT just doing a Turnaround to the Turnaround. That is what BK teaches, its a mind-trap.
Instead, lets use fact and evidence-based Critical Thinking and analysis to Dispute the false claims being made, like the Carl Sagan Baloney Detection Kit, and other strategies, that are about carefully gathering evidence, proper logic and reason, etc.
I think that is the best way to defeat the Byron Katie Turnaround thought-reform system.

Anticult,

I understand what you are saying. At the same time, there are moments when the only way I can keep out their mind-warps is to recognize it for what it is... backwards. In BK-land, everything gets turned around backwards, and sometimes... I've got to turnaround the turnarounds so that I can see things forwards, again.

If I were actually talking to the person, I would try very hard not to do this. I wouldn't want to reinforce the trap they're caught in. Since I'm not talking to them, and doing this for my benefit...

I need to unravel it. I gotta' untangle this stuff in my own mind.

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 06:28AM by jj52.