Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: Vic-Luc ()
Date: November 23, 2007 10:37AM


Martin Seligman's books are a good place to start. He has a website now.
Or, to start at the beginning, David Burns' "Feeling Good," and Daniel Goleman's, "Emotional Intelligence."


Elena, I've used these texts in practice actually...and have had a high degree of success!

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: bucknduck ()
Date: November 24, 2007 12:14AM

I'm not interested in putting anything into practice. I'm totally in research mode.

In the case of the suicidal friend, 'Mike', the value he got out of the excersize was to always keep 1 for himself. Again, we didn't play the lifeboat game, it was called the medicine game, but sounds very similar.

Something in that game made him challenge his thoughts about suicide and taking care of himself.

Is the LGAT feel good solely catharsis? Are there good exercises in the programs?

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: Vic-Luc ()
Date: November 24, 2007 02:04AM

Answer to question 1) YES
Answer to question 2) NO

Do your research paper from there, check out what Yalom had to say on LGATs, and move on. What might be right for you, may not be right for some...large numbers of people.

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: Vic-Luc ()
Date: November 24, 2007 02:22AM

If you want to LEARN something, take a reputable course.
If you want to explore your psychology, get some GOOD therapy.
If you have a problem, perhaps try group therapy, with NO LEADER.
Addendum, NO LEADER but a professional therapist

I wish I could tattooed that on people's foreheads or at least get it printed on a birth certificate.

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: November 24, 2007 11:38AM

I happened to go to a lecture from a world famous Humanist nontheist "freethinker" the other day. What was interesting was the contrast and superficial similarities to an LGAT.
In a way, it could look the same as an LGAT, a bunch of people in a stuffy room, charged admission, books for sale, etc.
But its amazing how different it is.

First off, you can sit where you want, no one is telling you what to do, you do what you want.
Next, it sorta starts late, the audio is not great, and there are a few people talking as things get going. Notice how the relaxed atmosphere is the opposite to most LGATs? The irony is you can learn much more in this type of environment. the information level is extremely high.

And they charge admission, but its only a few bucks, no one is getting rich, and they are selling a few books, at retail prices, no big salespitch...

But its a completely non-coercive environment. You are just there to listen to a smart elder Thinker talk about his ideas. Its all about critical thinking.
So they are trying to talk about a "healthy LGAT" but I don't think that exists, as others have mentioned.
What's wrong with a good lecture and Q&A session? That is the best way to learn something.

I think basically every element of the LGAT is simply designed as a way for them to get CONTROL of you, and your wallet, and your mind, usually to make a ton of money real fast.

Its a real breath of fresh air to attend a good event like the one I mentioned, which is the opposite to an LGAT, but ironically, the lecture, Q&A and mingling after actually impart much more learning in a natural way than any LGAT.
But they produce far far LESS MONEY than an LGAT, and that's what its all about folks...Big Easy Fast LGAT Money...

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: Zorro ()
Date: November 24, 2007 03:02PM


The lecture you attended brings back fond memories, before my LGAT experience.

I used to love to attend evening lectures and professional get togethers where people would discuss topics. Usually scientific or business. I loved it. Usually it cost me $15 to $20 and often times a MEAL was served! Other times I went to a class for my investing and it was a very relaxed atmosphere. We could bring our drinks into the room. We would hang around afterwards talking about deals and networking.

What a difference! Man I miss that stuff, don't miss the LGAT crap though. What a difference a year can make in my life and how Landmark made such a negative impact.

It's times like this when all the memories of how I was pre Landmark come rushing back to me....and I ask myself. What the hell was I thinking? Why the hell didn't I see it?

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: MartinH ()
Date: November 24, 2007 06:01PM

I used to attend everything that was kind of novel and interesting with an open mind, lectures about philosophy and stuff.

Nowadays, I am suspicious and don't like any training or lecture ...
I guess, the Landmark experience inflicted some emotional pain, such that I avoid lectures or anyone telling me what
is good or bad.

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: ON2 LF ()
Date: November 24, 2007 09:51PM

I used to attend everything that was kind of novel and interesting with an open mind, lectures about philosophy and stuff.

Nowadays, I am suspicious and don't like any training or lecture ...
I guess, the Landmark experience inflicted some emotional pain, such that I avoid lectures or anyone telling me what
is good or bad.

I can so relate with all of you guys, and Landmark didn't even get a full fledged hook into me in the same way as if I had been swept into the dark shadows of a forum.

I used to love attending all of my lectures, I loved listening to my trusted professors and instructors, and I especially loved learning what they had to teach. I never missed a lecture, and never did I not give all of my attention in a lecture. After experiencing the intellectual and emotional loss of a friend I loved dearly to Landmark Education, and being totally unsuccessful at attempts to rescue my friend, I am now totally suspicious and wary of all of my instructors and professors, afterall they too might be lying & conniving bastards like landmark forum leaders are. I can't listen too intently to any one professor, its too possible that they might be trying to 'teach' with the same sleazy covert tactics Landmark uses.

Today, I miss lectures, and I feel compelled to go and research everything they've said after a lecture is finished, and I've come to learn that at least two of my trusted teachers are also esties and Lekkies, I suspect a third but am being extremely cautious not to let this one know what I really think, like I did the last two. One thing I've learned the hard way about devoted lekkies, they never ever put down the torch, and even if their involvement was 30 years ago, they still bleed worship and devotion to the doctrines of landmark. They shock and scare me at the same time.

My love of learning, my trust, my curiousity has all been quelled and tarnished and in some subjects, totally destroyed---just by the presence of Landmark Education in my life indirectly.

I cannot imagine the annhiliation one experiences and has to recover from in a direct involvement. I feel really pissed off that I no longer trust any of my instructors and I no longer have the same naive love for learning that I did just two years ago.

Landmark has destroyed that joy for me through its sneaky and deceptive ways of 'educating' those who trust blindly. I hate Landmark for how it has fucked me up without my ever giving those bastards permission to enter the inner chambers of my mind or heart. I feel much anger at how violated I feel by Landmark, I can't imagine how it is for a person who has lost a loved one literally in death because of Landmark's 'therapy' sessions.
I give anyone my respect for recovering from a firsthand experience with Landmark butchers of education, it takes more guts and stamina than may be realized. I just can't stress enough how extremely toxic and deadly Landmark Education programming is.

I would liken Landmark courses to a psychological radiation at fatally high levels.

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: skeptic ()
Date: November 24, 2007 11:55PM

ON2 LF - great post. I relate 1000%. It wasn't Landmark that fucked me up (both directly and indirectly through my sister), it was another lgat. But they're all the same, in their tactics and their destructiveness. I like how you write. After six sickening, regressive years in the lgat my mind is a mess. I feel largely unable to express my thoughts anymore and I appreciate reading from those who can, such as yourself. I've been trying to regain my ability (partly by writing here for a couple years) but it ain't happening. Have also attempted some therapy but therapy also ain't happening, and DISTRUST accounts for that.

One thing I'm not totally unhappy about is that I've become cautious, skeptical and informed. I don't think that's a bad thing. Innocence and naivete have been lost but some wisdom has been gained. I am glad that I now know what I once did not: there are evil people looking to prey on the trusting. I now value and relish my newfound suspiciousness and cynicism.

One thing I remain is DEEPLY OUTRAGED at the betrayal & violation of the lgat. And I too am both shocked & scared when I see what the lgat has done to my sister.

Keep your posts coming. I like how you say it!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2007 11:59PM by skeptic.

Re: 'Healthy' LGATS?
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: November 25, 2007 12:42AM

I agree that possibly almost 100% of commercial "lectures" these days on the free-market are a type of LGAT. The problem is that anyone serious about giving seminars, goes out and studies the LGAT techniques to maximize their profits. Thus it become a mindfuck for profit.

But there are little niches with good stuff out there too. But one has to hunt for them.
They might be focussed around little things like hobbies, or home-robots, para-gliding, basket-weaving, or whatever.
In the case I mention above, it is dangerous territory, as it is dealing with aspects of philosophy. The saving grace here is that this was put on by a Skeptics organization, which is the opposite to most of the LGATs. Its about Critical Thinking, and not following others ideas, but making up one's own mind, and learning how to use the scientific method, analysis, etc.

So I think once we get some healing under our belt, we can go and do some fun things in that setting again. Even at the event I mentioned, there was some craziness. The speaker happened to criticize Ayn Rand a bit, and at the end, a couple of Ayn Rand followers got "on the mic" and started going kinda crazy, but people were mainly just laughing about it, and going to the toilet when that started. When the Ayn Rand Followers get "on the mic" that's a good time to go to the toilet, I find.

But I think if a person is still "freshly abused" from an LGAT, its probably healthy to stay away from that type of thing, if that is what one thinks is best.
But on the other hand, LGATs are evil, but LEARNING is wonderful. We can't let the LGAT scumbags wreck Learning for us.
So there are little author lectures here and there, perhaps at the university, artistic, political, sociological, that might be interesting, that cost a few bucks to pay for the room.
There are basic legit philosophy courses at local ACCREDITED colleges that MIGHT be good.
Philosophy is a fantastic area of learning, but LGAT's, Landmark and Werner Erhard are the opposite of learning and Knowledge.

Landmark and Werner Erhard and LGATs are to Learning like actual rapists are to sex. They are a perversion and the opposite to actual learning, and they are about coercion and violence to the individual. LGAT's = psychological rape. They are psychological rapists, and that is more than just a metaphor, in my opinion.

But going and seeing a good lecture by a decent author or thinker can be a good thing, as long as we have powerful critical thinking skills, and carefully analyze what is going on, but I do agree that for those who might be vulnerable that caution and street smarts are critical.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2007 12:49AM by The Anticult.

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