Are there any? And if so can anyone recommend?

I've just re-read 'Choosing a Personal Growth Program' over at the awareness page:

[perso.wanadoo.fr]

The author indicates that he feels there is such a thing as 'good' and 'bad' LGATs - and he lists warning signs to spot the 'bad' ones.

And yet I'm guessing that it is the 'bad' ones that are now most prominent, with their recruiting and advertising. I had a quick look online and couldn't find anything that looked like a 'good' LGAT.

Any suggestions?

I am not aware of any healthy LGATS. It might be an oxymoron.

What might be a HEALTHY "LGAT"?
A group of people getting together to learn/explore something useful?

Personally, i have ZERO interest in any LGAT anymore.
But one can still enjoy a good speech by someone who knows something.
One can go to a GOOD therapist to explore.
One can engage in some GOOD Group Therapy and get some benefit.

But the problem with "LGAT's" are infinite.
One-way communication, covert manipulation, peer pressure, deception, Guru's etc (x 1,000).
I personally cannot think of one reputable use for it.

If you want to LEARN something, take a reputable course.
If you want to explore your psychology, get some GOOD therapy.
If you have a problem, perhaps try group therapy, with NO LEADER.

In music and drama, we have what is called a "Masterclass" where a group of musicians/actors get together with an Expert, and the expert critiques each player, in real time, for all to learn.
This can be very helpful, but can also be a NIGHTMARE of LGAT style abuse.

So i have to say, "mass group experiential psychological sessions" under a charismatic leader seem to have NO positive purpose to me. I cannot think of ONE benefit, that cannot be had in a better way.

Unless you are the Leader, like Hitler, or Tony Robbins, or Werner Erhard, then its a great format for you.

Coz

Actually, i could imagine a seminar, where you had an ETHICAL speaker come in, and give a keynote style talk on a subject.
Lets say the subject was Customer Service.

Then after the talk, the room could break down into small groups, and the Speaker could act as a facillitator, as each small group practiced customer responses, and listening skills, handling hostile customers, etc.
This way, the SKILL is being practiced in real time, much like a Masterclass.
Then people could get up and do this in front of the group, etc.

But notice this is about a SKILL, and not generalized "personal growth". In this case, i could see the value of having the Expert, and having people actually PRACTICE the skill.

I would not even call that an LGAT actually.
More like a specific skill practice, or an applied skills class.
As long as they are not covertly manipulating you, then it should be ok.

It really raises an interesting question on what is the best way to learn.

Guys like Tony Robbins say that his seminars are the best way to learn, which is another lie, unless of course he means learn how to let Tony Robbins turn your brain inside out, and stamp Tony Robbins on it, and learn to love to give Tony lots of money for nothing.

LGAT's, as discussed here, are NOT a good way to learn.
They are designed for the benefit of the LEADER exclusively, usually to maximize the Guru's fees.... and Ego.

Coz

There are hundreds of better ways than paying money to these slicksters, who are mainly interested in giving you some kind of an artificial "high," like the drug pusher who wants to get you hooked so gives you the first hit for free. That's how they operate, psychologically. The legitimate avenues are not nearly so filled with dazzling promises or "possibilities," but much more likely to get you on the path to making your life better. Even the old groups like Toasmasters or Dale Carnegie will give you much of the same "experiencial" learning without having to join a cult. Remember, cults in general are formed around a few "concerns:" success or prosperity, salvation or deliverance, elitism, and giving people "meaning" in their lives. The biggest ones combine all of these into an expensive package that can involve payment of much more than money - you ability to think critically.

Martin Seligman's books are a good place to start. He has a website now.
Or, to start at the beginning, David Burns' "Feeling Good," and Daniel Goleman's, "Emotional Intelligence."


[www.authentichappiness.org]

Although I haven't read all the books on this list, it looks pretty good.

[www.amazon.com]


Ellen

Greetings,
I'm posting this here, rather than starting a new post, but I hope some of the regulars will still see it.

First - Rick - great site. I've spent all day reading.

I am finishing my Masters in Counseling and am pursuing my LPC. I went through an LGAT about 4 years ago (though I didn't know the term!). The one I went through isn't listed directly in any of the posts but seems to be related to Discovery and Choices. There were a number of stark differences:
~ Not the Forum syllabus
~ The leader was charismatic, but admitted to not having anyone's answers (and was Christian)
~ Whenever future seminars were discussed, he started with "this is our advertisement" (no hard sell)
~ The assistants were firm with tough love, but always treated us with dignity and respect
~ There is a PhD on staff and I know a number of LPCs are involved

Many of the tactics though were Mass Marathon and now give me shudders to think how it was all cookie cutter.

Getting to my point though, I found the experience good, as did my wife. One classmate was suicidal and today is thriving. Another suffered years of drug abuse, and although went through many rehabs and NA groups, finally found something to glue all the other therapies together with this training. As I've studied various psychological theories and methods, many of the excercises have struck me as fine techniques. I now conduct some small groups and am beginning my practicum (supervised).

So I'm curious what techniques others found beneficial. The majority of my LGAT training was Gestalt based with plenty of sprinklings from other theories. The last weekend was steeped in Cognitive Behavior Therapy - in fact was a good training on how to use CBT to change (like develop a workout schedule / make small changes become large ones etc).

I understand the horror stories and would like to believe the training I went to was 'different', but I'm not brain-washed enough to believe that. I'm more interested in some of the exercises/games that people have been through where they can identify tangible benefits from it, particularly if played in a small group (though it sounds like 50 people may have been a small group for some of these seminars!). Possibly Vic-Luc or other professionals could give me some meat for a paper I am planning on Group Techniques.

What did work?


Thanks

Quote
bucknduck
Greetings,
I'm posting this here, rather than starting a new post, but I hope some of the regulars will still see it.

First - Rick - great site. I've spent all day reading.

I am finishing my Masters in Counseling and am pursuing my LPC. I went through an LGAT about 4 years ago (though I didn't know the term!). The one I went through isn't listed directly in any of the posts but seems to be related to Discovery and Choices. There were a number of stark differences:
~ Not the Forum syllabus
~ The leader was charismatic, but admitted to not having anyone's answers (and was Christian)
~ Whenever future seminars were discussed, he started with "this is our advertisement" (no hard sell)
~ The assistants were firm with tough love, but always treated us with dignity and respect
~ There is a PhD on staff and I know a number of LPCs are involved

Many of the tactics though were Mass Marathon and now give me shudders to think how it was all cookie cutter.

Getting to my point though, I found the experience good, as did my wife. One classmate was suicidal and today is thriving. Another suffered years of drug abuse, and although went through many rehabs and NA groups, finally found something to glue all the other therapies together with this training. As I've studied various psychological theories and methods, many of the excercises have struck me as fine techniques. I now conduct some small groups and am beginning my practicum (supervised).

So I'm curious what techniques others found beneficial. The majority of my LGAT training was Gestalt based with plenty of sprinklings from other theories. The last weekend was steeped in Cognitive Behavior Therapy - in fact was a good training on how to use CBT to change (like develop a workout schedule / make small changes become large ones etc).

I understand the horror stories and would like to believe the training I went to was 'different', but I'm not brain-washed enough to believe that. I'm more interested in some of the exercises/games that people have been through where they can identify tangible benefits from it, particularly if played in a small group (though it sounds like 50 people may have been a small group for some of these seminars!). Possibly Vic-Luc or other professionals could give me some meat for a paper I am planning on Group Techniques.

What did work?


Thanks

What part of the country are you from, and maybe we can take it from there. If you're still in practicum and conducting small groups, I imagine it's chemical dependency, and if I ventured futher, part of the legal system.

Yes, in Texas.

Maybe I should be a little more specific with my question (and also ask if it's an ok question - on topic). The Lifespring training mentioned an excersize where people are on a lifeboat and have straws to give to save lives. My previously suicidal friend believes this type excersize helped him a great deal. I personally can see no value in the Red/Black game, but I've never done it.

Are there single pieces of the various LGATs that are useful? Likewise, which are most damaging?

Just curious - I realize it's a little off-topic.

Thanks

I can tell you this: Gestalt therapy and Gestlat techniques do not have much success, if any. I emphasize the latter part, and most decent practitioners know this...and research back it up.

CBT is your best bet. I do it, I challenge widely-held thoughts that are not true and follow the logic through. More importantly, it's not just me telling them...I empasize that they do large amounts of reality-testing. Group's usually 10-15 people, give or take. Is that about what you're looking at?

You do one idea at a time, the big ones that relate to the primary problem first. One one has gotten it, then will relate back to the group. In a few days, after some practice and reality-testing, they're ready to hit the next thing.

I show them the books I use and explain where they can get them, and sometimes for free. I give them free, easy to ready CBT booklets. I make sure I explain that this is "all free," and I point them to research that shows CBT (or a variant thereof, like REBT) has the most efficacy of all treatments...but it also takes a very long time and a lot of work to see maximum results.

Then I give them a run-down of what LGATS are/who they are, and what they claim to do in a weekend or two, and about how much they cost.

I've never seen clients laugh or call bullshit so quickly, so I figure I'm on to something.

Quote
bucknduck
So I'm curious what techniques others found beneficial.

I wish that I could say that I was subjected to techinques that I found beneficial from my experience in Landmark. But I can't. Some had no affect on me, but others I have since found to be very disturbing. Now i'm in counseling working to get over problems I didn't even have before.

Quote
bucknduck
Yes, in Texas.

Maybe I should be a little more specific with my question (and also ask if it's an ok question - on topic). The Lifespring training mentioned an excersize where people are on a lifeboat and have straws to give to save lives. My previously suicidal friend believes this type excersize helped him a great deal. I personally can see no value in the Red/Black game, but I've never done it.

Are there single pieces of the various LGATs that are useful? Likewise, which are most damaging?

Just curious - I realize it's a little off-topic.

Thanks

You can ask as many questions as you like. But I have to posit a few first in order to establish a background for answering yours.

You have a suicidal friend doing an exercise that had a 50/50 chance of success, given his predisposition, other factors I don't know not withstanding. And I imagine there are quite a few factors.

Here's my question Padwan: You have a treatment option with a suicidal client that has a 50/50 chance of success, and if it is successful or unsuccessful, you don't have data supporting either.

If it fails, have you followed your ethical prime directive?

The master's program you're in teaches person-centered therapy and I understand you have a big staff and a big program.

What is your prime directive on techniques you are not formally trained in?

If your answer contradicts my first question, you have an ethical dilemma. Given the LPC track, your malpractice and liability coverage is a lot lower than psychaitrists...and your board can sanction you much harsher than anyone with a PhD, PsyD, or MD. Or a LCSW for that matter.

So you have to tread carefully. You don't have the luxury of, "fucking up," to use the common parlance.

If you've read this far, you understand now the gravity of delving into LGAT techniques. I'm an APA member...you may want to research this per their dictum in the early part of the decade and get your doctorate. You're going to max out at 40K with a license in Texas and it's going to be like counseling with a straight-jacket on. Maybe not after the 6 month hump, but just when one gets comfortable, it has been my understanding that error of judgement creeps in.

I also imagine if your ran this by a neutral, non-LGAT LPC supervisor and asked her her thoughts about this, and explaining the framework the exercise came from...you would be corrected during supervison.

You'll be doing sessions, individual and group, either tape recorded or videotaped per licensure. You will be critiqued. You will have to provide rationale for treatment. In the hypothetical 50/50 chance with someone similar to your friend, but a client (where you have less information), can you stand face to a wrongful death lawsuit?

Provide me a detailed response to the points I've mentioned above.