Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
Cruisader
()
Date: December 11, 2004 07:35AM
Hi there,
I have been suffering from major depression since April 2004. Before that I believed I was going to transform the world... It's been a shitty year but I feel I'm beginning to gradually climb out of my depression...
I think it would be a really good idea if there were an online database with experiences and opinions of people who *did* Landmark and consider themselves victims or feel Landmark is not OK. I guess it could also store positive experiences, why not...
It could store:
- Age, sex, country
- When involved, for how long
- What courses they did
- Their Experience
- Categorisation of damage: Psychosys/depression/harassment/feeling manipulated
I think especially it could also help Landmarkers to snap out of it faster when they read a person who was involved for years and did a lot of courses writes what it was like to painfully snap out of it...
I think it's important that experiences of landmark attendees are listed separately from experiences of family and friends since these will very easily be dismissed as 'just stories' by a Landmarker and make the whole list a 'story'.
Rick I think you're doing a fantastic job here!
Maybe you could also separate the experiences in your Landmark section of your site into: did LF and others?
Does something like this already exist?
Do you think it's a good idea?
I have been suffering from major depression since April 2004. Before that I believed I was going to transform the world... It's been a shitty year but I feel I'm beginning to gradually climb out of my depression...
I think it would be a really good idea if there were an online database with experiences and opinions of people who *did* Landmark and consider themselves victims or feel Landmark is not OK. I guess it could also store positive experiences, why not...
It could store:
- Age, sex, country
- When involved, for how long
- What courses they did
- Their Experience
- Categorisation of damage: Psychosys/depression/harassment/feeling manipulated
I think especially it could also help Landmarkers to snap out of it faster when they read a person who was involved for years and did a lot of courses writes what it was like to painfully snap out of it...
I think it's important that experiences of landmark attendees are listed separately from experiences of family and friends since these will very easily be dismissed as 'just stories' by a Landmarker and make the whole list a 'story'.
Rick I think you're doing a fantastic job here!
Maybe you could also separate the experiences in your Landmark section of your site into: did LF and others?
Does something like this already exist?
Do you think it's a good idea?
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
Concerned Oz
()
Date: December 11, 2004 04:42PM
Crusader,
Good idea. Who will maintain it.
Acid Reindeer also suggested something similar a few months ago.
asking for help for a page on Landmark[/color:6bbf34dbe6]
[board.culteducation.com]
I would add the field:
Relationships Distroyed #:
Relationship type: Marital, defacto, b/f, g/f, siblings, parent, friend.
Oz
Good idea. Who will maintain it.
Acid Reindeer also suggested something similar a few months ago.
asking for help for a page on Landmark[/color:6bbf34dbe6]
[board.culteducation.com]
I would add the field:
Relationships Distroyed #:
Relationship type: Marital, defacto, b/f, g/f, siblings, parent, friend.
Oz
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
Cruisader
()
Date: December 11, 2004 07:34PM
Concerned Oz,
Thank for the feedback. Good idea to add these fields.
I would be willing to maintain it and put a website up. Maybe together with Acid Reindeer?
Is there an organisation(or mailinglist/discussion group/website) of some sort where people can join who consider themselves Landmark victims and also for people that actively want to *do* something to stop Landmark?
This board serves a similar function. But there's no subscription and it's open to Landmark-lovers as well.
If there's something like this around. Could someone let me know...
I don't think there is, so I'm setting it up right now. You can join by sending an email to landmarksux@yahoo.com
Thank for the feedback. Good idea to add these fields.
I would be willing to maintain it and put a website up. Maybe together with Acid Reindeer?
Is there an organisation(or mailinglist/discussion group/website) of some sort where people can join who consider themselves Landmark victims and also for people that actively want to *do* something to stop Landmark?
This board serves a similar function. But there's no subscription and it's open to Landmark-lovers as well.
If there's something like this around. Could someone let me know...
I don't think there is, so I'm setting it up right now. You can join by sending an email to landmarksux@yahoo.com
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
Concerned Oz
()
Date: December 12, 2004 06:33AM
Cruisader,
Your idea is a good one.
This site I think is one of the biggest for people to discuss Landmark.
I see three issues that need to be addressed:
* Resources to maintain the database;
* Legal issues must be investigated;
* Sabotage.
There are private yahoo groups for pro Landmarkians around the web.
There are a number of anti-cult / anti landmark sites around. Some were started years ago and have not been updated. Over time, the founders move on in their lives. The rr site is different as it is a "living" site because Rick is in the cult recovery profession.
I will help where I can.
These are just some things to think about.
Acid - do you have some ideas.
Anyone else have ideas?
Oz
Your idea is a good one.
This site I think is one of the biggest for people to discuss Landmark.
I see three issues that need to be addressed:
* Resources to maintain the database;
* Legal issues must be investigated;
* Sabotage.
There are private yahoo groups for pro Landmarkians around the web.
There are a number of anti-cult / anti landmark sites around. Some were started years ago and have not been updated. Over time, the founders move on in their lives. The rr site is different as it is a "living" site because Rick is in the cult recovery profession.
I will help where I can.
These are just some things to think about.
Acid - do you have some ideas.
Anyone else have ideas?
Oz
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
glam
()
Date: December 12, 2004 11:31PM
I love the idea.
However, many anti-LEC websites have been shut down or removed from the web because of legal threats from Landmark. Anyone who starts such a site should expect a letter from their legal department, like this one sent to Linda Chase, who runs Rants and Raves Live:
[home.swbell.net]
Some excerpts:
Not that I'm saying there shouldn't be such a site...I think it's disgusting that Landmark employs such tactics to try to keep people from speaking the truth.
Glam
However, many anti-LEC websites have been shut down or removed from the web because of legal threats from Landmark. Anyone who starts such a site should expect a letter from their legal department, like this one sent to Linda Chase, who runs Rants and Raves Live:
[home.swbell.net]
Some excerpts:
Quote
I have reviewed your Web Site and it seems biased toward having people who read the material come away with a negative impression of Landmark and its programs. I can't tell whether that is intentional on your part or the product of your being only partially informed. We are not the bad guys you portray us to be and we do not do the damage that you think we do. That does not mean we don't have things to work on. We are committed to serving our customers and responding to valid criticism.
Therefore, I am providing information and enclosing materials to correct a number of critical misimpression's reflected in your Web Site. These misimpression's include that Landmark and its programs are a cult, its programs are harmful and its programs include thought reform and mind control...
...C. Harm - As reflected in the letters included in the material enclosed in B, above, the facts are clear that The Landmark Forum and other Landmark programs are not damaging to people. In particular, I refer to the letter from Dr. Raymond Fowler which sets forth his personal opinion about The Forum based on his participation in The Forum and his 40 years as a psychologist. Dr. Fowler stated:
"I did not experience any personal sense of harm, danger, threat or coercion at any time and I saw no evidence that anyone else did."
Dr. Fowler also stated:
"I have talked to psychotherapists who encouraged certain of their patients to attend a Forum session when they felt they were ready to do so and they uniformly felt that the experience was non-harmful and perhaps encouraged insight."
...I trust that you will act in a responsible manner and publish this letter, together with the enclosed materials, as part of your Web Site. I also trust your fundamental commitment to balance and objectivity outweighs any bias you have against Landmark or The Forum, and that you will act promptly to correct the impression that your Web Site lacks balance and objectivity. Landmark is prepared to finance any scanning of the enclosed materials for inclusion in your Web Site if that would make it easier to include these materials. If you have any questions with regard to the information or materials herein, please contact me.
Sincerely,
Art Schreiber
General Counsel and Chairman of the Board of Directors
Not that I'm saying there shouldn't be such a site...I think it's disgusting that Landmark employs such tactics to try to keep people from speaking the truth.
Glam
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
Acid Reindeer
()
Date: December 13, 2004 07:17AM
I had some thoughts. I had one very ambitious ones.
preamble: let me tell you about Erowid and a few other sites which have a database of personal experiences of psychoactive substances (in the case of Erowid a few non-substance-related practices such as yoga).
for convenience, Erowid clusters experiences into categories such as Glowing Experiences, Car Wrecks, et cetera. so if you wanted, to, say research bad drugs experiences you could look for those. if you wanted to look up mystical experiences on cannabis, particularly, you could look for that, too.
a number of people who do Landmark or know people who have done it tend to say the same kind of things. Too Much Marketing as one of the critical ones or Wow Great Ohmygod (incoherent babbling follows) as one of the more positive ones. something, similar, in other words but more specific than how Erowid does it.
if a number of Landmark people use the same old arguments they get to have the arguments sorted together. that could make it clear that in many cases that their opinions come out of a script.
now the ambitious part.
maintaining a database of personal experiences, positive, negative, mixed, on a variety of NRM's and likeminded groups.
another, different sort of site called Guru Ratings lists names, short information and evaluations by, Sarlo, the owner of the site. (possibly just me, I found Sarlo's comments fall out of the chair hilarious.) (Werner, BTW, gets a low rating. as do most people.) it has a small section called Tales From The Path (tm) which has reports of some of these figures.
I think that a database soley on Landmark seems somewhat lopsided, somehow. not quite there. my ideas can maybe stir some further ideas from others.
also, and somewhat related, I really would like to get a copy of that script about answers to criticism out there on the WWW either in its original form or, if that presented a copyright violation, a close copy. though I think I know most or all of the points this document would contain.
last, personal notes. Landmark has little influence compared to psychiatry as well as having a strong lobby and pow the legal system. my work against psychiatry takes priority over any other activism I do on the web simply because psychiatry, IMHO, does more damage.
preamble: let me tell you about Erowid and a few other sites which have a database of personal experiences of psychoactive substances (in the case of Erowid a few non-substance-related practices such as yoga).
for convenience, Erowid clusters experiences into categories such as Glowing Experiences, Car Wrecks, et cetera. so if you wanted, to, say research bad drugs experiences you could look for those. if you wanted to look up mystical experiences on cannabis, particularly, you could look for that, too.
a number of people who do Landmark or know people who have done it tend to say the same kind of things. Too Much Marketing as one of the critical ones or Wow Great Ohmygod (incoherent babbling follows) as one of the more positive ones. something, similar, in other words but more specific than how Erowid does it.
if a number of Landmark people use the same old arguments they get to have the arguments sorted together. that could make it clear that in many cases that their opinions come out of a script.
now the ambitious part.
maintaining a database of personal experiences, positive, negative, mixed, on a variety of NRM's and likeminded groups.
another, different sort of site called Guru Ratings lists names, short information and evaluations by, Sarlo, the owner of the site. (possibly just me, I found Sarlo's comments fall out of the chair hilarious.) (Werner, BTW, gets a low rating. as do most people.) it has a small section called Tales From The Path (tm) which has reports of some of these figures.
I think that a database soley on Landmark seems somewhat lopsided, somehow. not quite there. my ideas can maybe stir some further ideas from others.
also, and somewhat related, I really would like to get a copy of that script about answers to criticism out there on the WWW either in its original form or, if that presented a copyright violation, a close copy. though I think I know most or all of the points this document would contain.
last, personal notes. Landmark has little influence compared to psychiatry as well as having a strong lobby and pow the legal system. my work against psychiatry takes priority over any other activism I do on the web simply because psychiatry, IMHO, does more damage.
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
Cruisader
()
Date: December 13, 2004 06:56PM
Hi guys!
Thanks for all the feedback.
I think first of all we need to start a network of people who want to actively warn people about the dangers of Landmark.
Any other suggestions?
Thanks for all the feedback.
I think first of all we need to start a network of people who want to actively warn people about the dangers of Landmark.
Any other suggestions?
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: December 13, 2004 11:32PM
Cruisader:
I agree with the statement by Acid Reindeer "that a database soley on Landmark seems somewhat lopsided."
It also seems a bit redundant.
There are currently resources on the Internet with both positive and critical information about Landmark Education and other LGATs, which also include message boards or discussion groups--such as this board and FACTNET.
The Internet is currently being used quite effectively as a network to both promote Landmark Education, and also to provide the general public with critical information and analysis about that company.
Please discontinue using this board to promote a proposed "network."
I agree with the statement by Acid Reindeer "that a database soley on Landmark seems somewhat lopsided."
It also seems a bit redundant.
There are currently resources on the Internet with both positive and critical information about Landmark Education and other LGATs, which also include message boards or discussion groups--such as this board and FACTNET.
The Internet is currently being used quite effectively as a network to both promote Landmark Education, and also to provide the general public with critical information and analysis about that company.
Please discontinue using this board to promote a proposed "network."
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
Acid Reindeer
()
Date: December 14, 2004 04:09AM
between the thought and the idea I did not make it clear enough. by database, I meant, in shorthand a database of personal accounts, firsthand stories. as far as I know, no resource along those lines exists on the web. again, something modelled after Erowid which contains a variety of reported experiences and observations.
the Rick Ross site does archive personal stories, I know, just not in a methodical way, by category other than group name. and taking the LEC section as an example... I have not looked at the others so extensively... it archives only negative experiences.
if anybody wants to discuss this further or make plans to start an anti-LEC network I guess you can private message me and I can try to put everyone in touch with each other.
the Rick Ross site does archive personal stories, I know, just not in a methodical way, by category other than group name. and taking the LEC section as an example... I have not looked at the others so extensively... it archives only negative experiences.
if anybody wants to discuss this further or make plans to start an anti-LEC network I guess you can private message me and I can try to put everyone in touch with each other.
Online database with Landmark experiences
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: December 14, 2004 06:48AM
Thanks.
Landmark, EST, the Forum and Hunger Project are broken out into four seperate pages, though they are closely related historically.
The Landmark page is broken down into four topical subsections.
It really depends upon the volume of documents linked.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Scientology is a huge page with many subsections to categorize its hundreds of documents.
Another example is the Sterling Institute of Relationship a smaller page like Landmark Education, but broken down into four categories Men, Women, Press and General.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is because Sterling has two weekends, one for men and one for women.
Landmark, EST, the Forum and Hunger Project are broken out into four seperate pages, though they are closely related historically.
The Landmark page is broken down into four topical subsections.
It really depends upon the volume of documents linked.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Scientology is a huge page with many subsections to categorize its hundreds of documents.
Another example is the Sterling Institute of Relationship a smaller page like Landmark Education, but broken down into four categories Men, Women, Press and General.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is because Sterling has two weekends, one for men and one for women.
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