My roommate is a Landmarkian; she is in the leader program now -- which means -- she is completely entrenched. Here is my advice...do not say ANYTHING negative about Landmark -- or you won't remain friends, quite possibly, even after "The Landmark Phase" runs its course. Hopefully, it is a phase. From what I have witnessed, people who get into Landmark are looking for something; they are lost and they usually believe in a quick fix. Most people figure their way out. Some folks, depending on intelligence, level of cynicism, support groups and tolerance for near insanity...just continue to think it is the greatest thing in the world. Like the common cold, Landmark must run its course. Don't tell her how you feel about it. But do draw some serious boundary lines. One of mine is -- I will not have a discussion about anything if my roommate uses Landmark-speech or Landmark buzz words. Another one of mine is -- I do not want to hear about it -- not only does that mean 'don't try to sign me up for anything' but it also means that I won't listen to anything that happened at Landmark. I don't want to overhear conference calls -- so shut the door. Set good boundaries that let her know you are not interested. But do not tell her to get out -- don't call it a cult -- stay away from saying anything that she'll perceive as you are anti-Landmark.

Staying friends with people who are still deeply involved with LEC is very hard to do if you are trying to difuse the "power" they hold over you. Landmark does rely on the friendships to hold you there.

I have pretty much stopped having anything to do with anyone with in Landmark. I have a couple of people who I am still in touch with but they know that I am not open to discuss any "concepts" "rackets" or anything else.

I made this choice for my own benefit. I knew if I continued to interact with these people I would be easily drawn back in.

For those people who are trying to retain friendships with people who are involved with Landmark, you will face an uphil battle. the manipulations these friends will be under from Landmark will cause them to think that you are not true friends. All I can suggest is just be there, ignore their pushiness politely decline to attend anything and just say your answer is no dont give a reason. and then continue to be there for when they see the negitive of landmark.

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speranza

It certainly is true that my friend can't hear anything negative about Landmark - in fact she told me that I wasn't being supportive and that it [i:c8582e0751]was[/i:c8582e0751] a direct insult to her that I was saying bad things about it! !

This just goes to show how deceitful Landmark is. Even their name is deceitful. They call themselves Landmark [i:c8582e0751]Education[/i:c8582e0751], but if this group was an educational institute in the true sense of the word then why do so many of their followers end up zealously treating Landmark as if it was their religion? If I was to criticize the high school or college you attended, would you treat it as "a direct insult"?

Landmark is not an educational organization. It is a despicable, deceitful, manipulating, brainwashing, no-integrity cult with a fixed goal to make money, money and more money. Of course there's nothing wrong with making money, but to use the methods Landmark does, in my opinion should be illegal.

Hype2120 wrote:

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I don't want to overhear conference calls -- so shut the door.

That's funny. This is probably a coincidence, but the person I work for that introduced me to Landmark is always on speaker phone.

Get this. He is a leader, or whatever they are called... I kind of backed out, but I overheard him on the phone with someone he had invited to the forum, and she sounded just like me right after I had done the Intro. She was already using the terminology, I guess because that's how you have to relate to them eventually. I think she hadn't done the Forum yet, or hadn't made up her mind... but she was like me in that she was saying "this seems so great, I really like Landmark", but her inner feeling was telling her something, and she gave him a mixed BS excuse. You can't second guess yourself all the time. Sometimes you just know when something is BS. ...but do you think they leave the speaker phone on on purpose, especially when talking about Landmark, or maybe to try to show how Landmark helps with their business skills?

I said this in another post, but I noticed Landmark works so well b/c, like the guy that introduced me and her, you have these successful and seamingly bright people that get worked into it. "gee golly, what was I thinking, this couldn't be anything sketchy." I could sense it in this womans voice that she trusted and admired this guy as much as I did at the time of being persuaded to do Landmark, and that made it hard to back out... he even brought her to tears over the phone, and I noticed the tone he talks in and the terminology used. You'd have to be there to understand. right in my face.

Why don't they realize we are right outside hearing all of it -- and laughing?? It is both sad and hysterical. I actually printed (at her request) my roommate's "speech" that she gives as a leader. No kidding -- she asked me to print it in my office because her printer was on the fritz. Was I surprised to find myself detailed (in a very flattering light) in the darn speech??!! Not just me -- but my dog is in the speech too. And I sound so extraordinary, one could assume, from hearing this little introduction -- that I -- the roommate -- the hater of all things Landmark -- it kind of sounded like I was also in the stupid movement.

Acid Reindeer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> read a book recently called [i:bf6a98b887]est:
> Making Life Work[/i:bf6a98b887] by Robert
> Hargrove.
> the forum leader says that you do not do anything
> as long as you act ethically (or did he phrase it
> "in ethics"?), the reverse of which means that if
> you can do something that makes it ethical.


Recall in early days of coaching in Tokyo, Hargrove's book "Masterful Coaching" was HUGE. In it, he explicates his concept of "The Impossible Future".

The concept/belief seemed to elicit in followers all kinds of unethical behaviors, toward clients, towards colleagues.

Est: Making Life Work Paperback – June, 1976

[www.amazon.com]

In an old discussion of est and Landmark, someone wrote this. The following discussions are very interesting.

[forum.culteducation.com]

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tywebb
Sorry for the gender bias. This has hit me hard and fast, and I was very unaware as to the seductive practices by both sexes.

Could someone please elaborate as to what they teach regarding using sex and seductive practices to lure in others?

TIA

There's a passage from Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich," one of Werner Erhard's main sources of inspiration, about selling and sex. It's referenced in "Outrageous Betrayal." Haven't got my copy or I'd give you the page number. Apart from that, it or something similar, is part of every basic sales course and, indeed, most advertising.

Some of the old timers talk about the "desensitization" practices they had to endure during the "Advanced" course where they are surrounded with the most vile pornographic images during lengthy lectures. This is meant to degrade the idea of sex into another "empty & meaningless" event so that it can be re-formed or ~transformed~ into the Landmarkian version, I believe.


Ellen

This too:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Hi lightwolf,


A few years ago on alt.fan.landmark there was talk about "sex night" during the "6-Day," which was precursor to the "Advanced Course." Sadly, most of the old timers have quit posting (at least to afl), for which I wouldn't blame them. Also, this was a different time - before the swing back towards a more proscriptive cultural environment. The 1970s were pretty free-wheeling. And acceptance of certain questionable behavior was a "top-down" phenomenon when Werner Erhard was in charge. As a guru, his behavior was considered exemplary and earlier esties were noted for their hare-like proclivities. As some wag observed, "They rut like bunnies." Though Werner is long gone and his clones are aging and falling by the wayside, there is still considerable adherence to his memory and style. Some insiders refer to him in reverent whispers as "the Founder" or "the ~Source.~" I don't think there is any doubt he is still considered the "spiritual" chief or is still pulling the strings from the Cayman Islands.

(It might be interesting to note that Mormon women are instructed and encouraged to enjoy and engage in sex often with their husbands which serves two excellent cult purposes; tends to keep men motivated and "in the fold," and makes lots more Mormons.)



Ellen

Corboy,

I think NXIVM also built violent pornography into some of its programs. Agree with your idea that these groups degrade sex, and sexually degrade members as part of a transformation process, aka brainwashing.

With regard to W.E.'s current status, I agree that he is probably pulling strings from a distance. Landmark is a family-owned business. I would assume its Board is stacked with family members and W.E. loyalists.

Cults don't dismantle themselves, especially, when the guru is still alive.