a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: January 23, 2003 12:35AM
there was no chocolate and vanilla
part of my forum. it was slightly
different from yours obviously.
i have not done the advanced course.
and i am still waiting for a direct
response to my question.
according to u is it ok for landmark
to use hpynosis on the crowds in order
to enlighten them, according to landmarks way of thinking ?
if u do not believe landmark used
hypnosis during the forum can u think
of any other way it was possible to
get the crowd thinking and clapping
and doing most everything the same.
can u think of an alternative way to
make the crowd be as one ?
part of my forum. it was slightly
different from yours obviously.
i have not done the advanced course.
and i am still waiting for a direct
response to my question.
according to u is it ok for landmark
to use hpynosis on the crowds in order
to enlighten them, according to landmarks way of thinking ?
if u do not believe landmark used
hypnosis during the forum can u think
of any other way it was possible to
get the crowd thinking and clapping
and doing most everything the same.
can u think of an alternative way to
make the crowd be as one ?
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
Hope
()
Date: January 23, 2003 02:03AM
PD,
My problem answering your ? stems from my lack of knowledge about hypnosis. I'm still learning. My focus has been on the issue of LE playing doctor, rather than their use of trance states, which I'm reading about. Perhaps it's a matter of experts making their craft look simple and I fell for it, not even realizing it. Now would using the idea of [most] people's worst fear being public speaking play a part in hypnosis? I've wondered if the moaners and screamers were acting so they wouldn't get picked on, if they were eager to please.
My problem answering your ? stems from my lack of knowledge about hypnosis. I'm still learning. My focus has been on the issue of LE playing doctor, rather than their use of trance states, which I'm reading about. Perhaps it's a matter of experts making their craft look simple and I fell for it, not even realizing it. Now would using the idea of [most] people's worst fear being public speaking play a part in hypnosis? I've wondered if the moaners and screamers were acting so they wouldn't get picked on, if they were eager to please.
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
Katydid
()
Date: January 23, 2003 02:21AM
P-D
Why not tell everybody your top three or top five objections to LF and whether you got anything (good or bad) out of it. What I've gotten so far is:
1. Landmark uses hypnoosis
2. Landmark uses hypnosis without permission
3. A program that involves hypnosis is no place for education
4. In some LF excercises, attendees are told it is a fear excercise and in others in is called an empowerment excercise
5. People are not thinking for themselves in this excercise
6. Landmark is creating an emotional response in attendees instead of attendees creating it inthemselves
7. LF/LEC benefits from conducting the LF
8. LF is more concerned with their own benefit than the attendees benefit
9. "Enlightenment" which people may have is to Landmark's way of thinking and it is what Landmark perceives
10. Landmark is trying to make everyone be as one
11. Werner Ehrhard is in every LF in the world
12. Werner Ehrhard gets 50 percent of the gross profits from LF/LEC
13. LF/LEC techniques gives the power to the leader and takes it away from the attendees
If there's more - spell it out please.
If "u" want a direct answer ask a clear, direct, unassuming question. Otherwise, you may have a very long wait.
Your Question from your first post:
"my question is how does this empower
someone. how does making someone under
hypnosis more powerful ?"
The question I answered was What I Understood the Excercise to Mean and What My Experience was during the exercise, i,e "So that's my interpretation of the exercise "
Your Two Questions from your second post:
"do u believe that that hypnosis that
is used at landmark is done for the
benefit of the participants or for
the benefit of landmark, or maybe
for some of both."
"do u feel it is appropriate to hypnotise people without their permission in order to do what landmark percieves is in their best
interests ?"
Your Second & Third Question both assume as a premise that Hypnosis is used (and, if so, whether it is a) appropriate and b) without the participant's permission.
Your Questions from your third post:
"according to u is it ok for landmark
to use hpynosis on the crowds in order
to enlighten them, according to landmarks way of thinking ?"
"can u think of an alternative way to
make the crowd be as one ?"
Your Fourth Question also assumes that hypnosis is used.
Your Fifth Question assumes that the crowd was being as one.
My answers to your Questions:
I have no idea whether the method used in the excercise is hypnosis as I am not trained as an expert and have not read about the wide variety of ways to hypnotize people.
I have done guided imagery in athletics, biofeedback and meditative breathing. Are those Hypnosis? I have no idea. Was it any different than the LEC excercise? Not for me (I have no idea how it was for others).
In my opinion: Everything Landmark does is in Landmark's financial business interest. Anything the particpants learn or are "enlightened" about is a bonus to the participants. This is called capitalism and if you watch television for an hour you will see almost every Landmark "technique" in advertising.
LEC participants are free to come and go throughout the entire weekend - I did and so did others. They are responsible for "perceiving" what is in the own best interests.
In the 2 LFs I have done and the advanced course, our room was far from "being one" at any time during the weekend. So if LF was trying "make the crowd be as one," LF failed.
_____________________
common sense is all u need
Why not tell everybody your top three or top five objections to LF and whether you got anything (good or bad) out of it. What I've gotten so far is:
1. Landmark uses hypnoosis
2. Landmark uses hypnosis without permission
3. A program that involves hypnosis is no place for education
4. In some LF excercises, attendees are told it is a fear excercise and in others in is called an empowerment excercise
5. People are not thinking for themselves in this excercise
6. Landmark is creating an emotional response in attendees instead of attendees creating it inthemselves
7. LF/LEC benefits from conducting the LF
8. LF is more concerned with their own benefit than the attendees benefit
9. "Enlightenment" which people may have is to Landmark's way of thinking and it is what Landmark perceives
10. Landmark is trying to make everyone be as one
11. Werner Ehrhard is in every LF in the world
12. Werner Ehrhard gets 50 percent of the gross profits from LF/LEC
13. LF/LEC techniques gives the power to the leader and takes it away from the attendees
If there's more - spell it out please.
If "u" want a direct answer ask a clear, direct, unassuming question. Otherwise, you may have a very long wait.
Your Question from your first post:
"my question is how does this empower
someone. how does making someone under
hypnosis more powerful ?"
The question I answered was What I Understood the Excercise to Mean and What My Experience was during the exercise, i,e "So that's my interpretation of the exercise "
Your Two Questions from your second post:
"do u believe that that hypnosis that
is used at landmark is done for the
benefit of the participants or for
the benefit of landmark, or maybe
for some of both."
"do u feel it is appropriate to hypnotise people without their permission in order to do what landmark percieves is in their best
interests ?"
Your Second & Third Question both assume as a premise that Hypnosis is used (and, if so, whether it is a) appropriate and b) without the participant's permission.
Your Questions from your third post:
"according to u is it ok for landmark
to use hpynosis on the crowds in order
to enlighten them, according to landmarks way of thinking ?"
"can u think of an alternative way to
make the crowd be as one ?"
Your Fourth Question also assumes that hypnosis is used.
Your Fifth Question assumes that the crowd was being as one.
My answers to your Questions:
I have no idea whether the method used in the excercise is hypnosis as I am not trained as an expert and have not read about the wide variety of ways to hypnotize people.
I have done guided imagery in athletics, biofeedback and meditative breathing. Are those Hypnosis? I have no idea. Was it any different than the LEC excercise? Not for me (I have no idea how it was for others).
In my opinion: Everything Landmark does is in Landmark's financial business interest. Anything the particpants learn or are "enlightened" about is a bonus to the participants. This is called capitalism and if you watch television for an hour you will see almost every Landmark "technique" in advertising.
LEC participants are free to come and go throughout the entire weekend - I did and so did others. They are responsible for "perceiving" what is in the own best interests.
In the 2 LFs I have done and the advanced course, our room was far from "being one" at any time during the weekend. So if LF was trying "make the crowd be as one," LF failed.
_____________________
common sense is all u need
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
Katydid
()
Date: January 23, 2003 02:22AM
Hope: I agree with you that the Landmark premise that comes through is that you can "disappear" all physical illness is phooey. My own experience is that the broader principle that your thoughts can and do affect your wellness and are integrally related to some physical conditions is a valid principle.
In my case, the only only only medical treatment that helped IBS was biofeedback. Meditative breathing (with a couple of different CDS) has been hugely helpful in managing chronic pain.
Frankly, I was surprised this weekend that the LF leader did not try to invalidate the physical pain that I was in (am in) with the disappearing, it's all in your head stuff.
Regards -
In my case, the only only only medical treatment that helped IBS was biofeedback. Meditative breathing (with a couple of different CDS) has been hugely helpful in managing chronic pain.
Frankly, I was surprised this weekend that the LF leader did not try to invalidate the physical pain that I was in (am in) with the disappearing, it's all in your head stuff.
Regards -
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
Hope
()
Date: January 23, 2003 02:28AM
Katydid,
I can only hope you find relief for your pain. There are SO many factors in "disease."
I really think the leader DOES make the forum. They are human, after all. Mine was abusive.
Hope
I can only hope you find relief for your pain. There are SO many factors in "disease."
I really think the leader DOES make the forum. They are human, after all. Mine was abusive.
Hope
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
Katydid
()
Date: January 23, 2003 04:19AM
Hope:
Thank you for your concern - I saw a specialist today about the surgery that may provide for some relief (I had surgery a year ago this month and that was somewhat helpful).
Again, I think you are right on about the Forum leader making (or breaking) the Forum. This past weekend we had a guy called Alan Cahn (no pun intended!). I do not remember the names of previous Forum folk who lead, but the first Forum I attended in 1996 the gal was a witch and clearly on a power trip.
So personality makes a huge difference. This past weekend, the guy was dynamic and an effective speaker but was not abusive toward anyone. He gave people a lot of lattitude to say what they had to say, much more so than previous courses.
The actual content and format was also different than the first time I took it. Some was just semantics, but I think the breaks were longer than when I took it in 1996. We also finished before 11:00 on Friday, before 10:00 on Saturday and at 10:00 on Sunday - He got through the material in less time.
I think the quality of the LF experience also relates to the other participants and what they bring to the microphone The group I was just in was loaded with vocal skeptics who remained vocal skeptics thru to the end. People wandered in and out freely and without public scolding. It may also depend on whether a person has something specific as a goal (In my case the first time I did & this time, the issue was broader).
When did you do your LF? Did you stay for the whole thing?
Regards -
Thank you for your concern - I saw a specialist today about the surgery that may provide for some relief (I had surgery a year ago this month and that was somewhat helpful).
Again, I think you are right on about the Forum leader making (or breaking) the Forum. This past weekend we had a guy called Alan Cahn (no pun intended!). I do not remember the names of previous Forum folk who lead, but the first Forum I attended in 1996 the gal was a witch and clearly on a power trip.
So personality makes a huge difference. This past weekend, the guy was dynamic and an effective speaker but was not abusive toward anyone. He gave people a lot of lattitude to say what they had to say, much more so than previous courses.
The actual content and format was also different than the first time I took it. Some was just semantics, but I think the breaks were longer than when I took it in 1996. We also finished before 11:00 on Friday, before 10:00 on Saturday and at 10:00 on Sunday - He got through the material in less time.
I think the quality of the LF experience also relates to the other participants and what they bring to the microphone The group I was just in was loaded with vocal skeptics who remained vocal skeptics thru to the end. People wandered in and out freely and without public scolding. It may also depend on whether a person has something specific as a goal (In my case the first time I did & this time, the issue was broader).
When did you do your LF? Did you stay for the whole thing?
Regards -
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
Hope
()
Date: January 23, 2003 05:54AM
Katydid,
Maybe they've changed the format. They certainly changed their website!
I stayed thru the WHOLE THING - Friday (actually Saturday a.m. ) 8:30 a.m. to 1 a.m., Sat, 9 a.m. - 12:30 a.m., Sunday 9 a.m. to midnight and then Tuesday. Our leader made a point of lecturing on integrity when people left the room. Our breaks were very far apart. I admired my leader for his stamina, but that was about it.
We had people escorted out for voicing skepticism.
I did my Forum in 12/02.
Regarding surgery, is it for IBS? If you would like to PM me, I have some info that helped me.
Hope
Maybe they've changed the format. They certainly changed their website!
I stayed thru the WHOLE THING - Friday (actually Saturday a.m. ) 8:30 a.m. to 1 a.m., Sat, 9 a.m. - 12:30 a.m., Sunday 9 a.m. to midnight and then Tuesday. Our leader made a point of lecturing on integrity when people left the room. Our breaks were very far apart. I admired my leader for his stamina, but that was about it.
We had people escorted out for voicing skepticism.
I did my Forum in 12/02.
Regarding surgery, is it for IBS? If you would like to PM me, I have some info that helped me.
Hope
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: January 23, 2003 07:34AM
katydid
#4 is incorrect.
lets speak hypotheically for a moment.
if landmark is using hypnosis on the
crowd, do u believe that using hypnosis on people without their
being aware of it or their permission
before hand is justified as long
as most of the group feels better
about themselves when it is over.
and another question.
the way that landmark stops peoples
way of thinking, to in a sense cohearse the crowd into their way of
thinking to my understanding is a form
of abuse. abuse is rampant especially
in the united states, of course abuse
is pretty much not talked about.
is abusing people to make them feel
better about themselves justified as
long as when it is over the people
feel better about themselves ?
thank u
#4 is incorrect.
lets speak hypotheically for a moment.
if landmark is using hypnosis on the
crowd, do u believe that using hypnosis on people without their
being aware of it or their permission
before hand is justified as long
as most of the group feels better
about themselves when it is over.
and another question.
the way that landmark stops peoples
way of thinking, to in a sense cohearse the crowd into their way of
thinking to my understanding is a form
of abuse. abuse is rampant especially
in the united states, of course abuse
is pretty much not talked about.
is abusing people to make them feel
better about themselves justified as
long as when it is over the people
feel better about themselves ?
thank u
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
Katydid
()
Date: January 23, 2003 08:03AM
Hope:
I don't think they have changed the format since 12/02, but clearly the LF leader has discretion based on our different experiences. Was yours in the Alexandria Virginia area (as mine was) or elsewhere?
Wow: It sounds like your LF leader was a tyrannt. We got one "integrity" remark sometime on Saturday, but I swear our group largely ignored it. Our LF leader scheduled a stretch break at 1 1/2 hour intervals and never went more than 3 hours total without a break. Additionally, we had people standing in the back of the room and lying on the floor with orthopedic pillows. We also had about 5 people who brought their own fold-out camping chairs (myself included).
Thanks for the offer on the IBS stuff. Happily, I don't suffer from it anymore as biofeedback did the trick many years ago and I have never had a recurrence of symptoms. I would still be interested in e-mailing with you directly, but I'm not sure how to do that. Do you know?
Our skeptics were both vocal - and not escorted out - or of the silent majority type. Sit and listen and never approach the mike but share (I detest that word) at the breaks.
The other amazing thing that happened, as far as I was concerned - was that I spent the whole weekend telling my husband all by beefs with LF/LEC and even did imitations of the LF leader and lingo, complete with gestures, foot movement, etc. We nicknamed this type of sharing as "demeaning the Forum thru interpretive dance." He came with me on Tuesday night because he is a great guy who is involved in my life - not because I persuaded him to come or because he was interested in taking the course. He is a brilliant man with a triple degree (in math, comp sci and physics) from an Ivy league univ and is a forensic scientist with one of the big three federal law enforcement agencies. He is also a skeptic by nature.
When he went off for his sales pitch, I asked him to give the LF/LEC folks a run for their money. Stand Firm! Don't Register! Well, he didn't register - but imagine my surprise when he said, I can see why these folks bug the crap out of you with Jargon, Sales and Evangelissm, but I can also see where the training could have practical value in work and relationships.
He wants to take the course. I almost fell over.
I am so glad that I have described all the crazy stuff as well as what I got out of it. So we'll see. I have no commitment to him taking it (or not) - unless of couse his breakthrough is that he realizes he's made a horrible mistake marrying me and files divorce papers and becomes an LEC groupie . . . in which case, boy, will I have a story!
By the way - What is the "it" that you guys got? I think I missed it, but got something anyway.
Regards -
I don't think they have changed the format since 12/02, but clearly the LF leader has discretion based on our different experiences. Was yours in the Alexandria Virginia area (as mine was) or elsewhere?
Wow: It sounds like your LF leader was a tyrannt. We got one "integrity" remark sometime on Saturday, but I swear our group largely ignored it. Our LF leader scheduled a stretch break at 1 1/2 hour intervals and never went more than 3 hours total without a break. Additionally, we had people standing in the back of the room and lying on the floor with orthopedic pillows. We also had about 5 people who brought their own fold-out camping chairs (myself included).
Thanks for the offer on the IBS stuff. Happily, I don't suffer from it anymore as biofeedback did the trick many years ago and I have never had a recurrence of symptoms. I would still be interested in e-mailing with you directly, but I'm not sure how to do that. Do you know?
Our skeptics were both vocal - and not escorted out - or of the silent majority type. Sit and listen and never approach the mike but share (I detest that word) at the breaks.
The other amazing thing that happened, as far as I was concerned - was that I spent the whole weekend telling my husband all by beefs with LF/LEC and even did imitations of the LF leader and lingo, complete with gestures, foot movement, etc. We nicknamed this type of sharing as "demeaning the Forum thru interpretive dance." He came with me on Tuesday night because he is a great guy who is involved in my life - not because I persuaded him to come or because he was interested in taking the course. He is a brilliant man with a triple degree (in math, comp sci and physics) from an Ivy league univ and is a forensic scientist with one of the big three federal law enforcement agencies. He is also a skeptic by nature.
When he went off for his sales pitch, I asked him to give the LF/LEC folks a run for their money. Stand Firm! Don't Register! Well, he didn't register - but imagine my surprise when he said, I can see why these folks bug the crap out of you with Jargon, Sales and Evangelissm, but I can also see where the training could have practical value in work and relationships.
He wants to take the course. I almost fell over.
I am so glad that I have described all the crazy stuff as well as what I got out of it. So we'll see. I have no commitment to him taking it (or not) - unless of couse his breakthrough is that he realizes he's made a horrible mistake marrying me and files divorce papers and becomes an LEC groupie . . . in which case, boy, will I have a story!
By the way - What is the "it" that you guys got? I think I missed it, but got something anyway.
Regards -
a question for the landmark grads that read this group
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: January 23, 2003 08:16AM
Quote
Hope
Patrick-Darcy,
I'm not following you, and some of the statements you made about the exercise certainly were not the case in my experience.
im finally learning how to use this
software :)
your statement about it not being
the case in your experience is exactly
the same response i have heard from
every single other landmark grad that
has a favorable impression of landmark
forum.
usually what i hear next is well it
may be the truth for him but its not
the truth for me.
do u feel this statement is yours ?
Out of 180 people in the room, perhaps 10 were very frightened and crying. I don't think it's a matter of the other 170 being in denial.
that is interesting. u are saying that
only 10 out of 180 were crying.
interesting. may i ask who the forum
leader was ?
mind was jinnendra jain and had practically everybody going hyterical.
i cant say for sure that every single
person was waling and screaming and
crying because even though i was sitting at the time toward the back row but not on the back and because
when i opened my eyes to peek, the
old goat was standing right in front
of me. i didnt get the chance to completely see everyone, but everyone i did see except for the man sitting
next to me was screaming and crying
and really getting hysterical.
i know that the forums are not all
completely the same. and its quite
apparent that jinnedra who told us
that he was the one that trains all
the other forum leaders is a little
bit better at it than some. lets
face it. the purpose of the exercis
is to make u terrified of everybody.
that is what it is about. if u didnt
get terrified then u didnt get it.
get it :)
Perhaps the real reason is the fact that this exercise is explained on the internet on several sites, and it's an idea that's been used in public speaking classes for a very long time. I thought my leader was rather tonge-in-cheek about this particular exercise (and he caught me looking, too ;)
There was not one part where we were terrified and a second part where we did the terrifying and thought it was funny.
then the empowerment process was
dont differently in your forum.
would u agree this is a possibility ?
The serious matter lies in having participants "share" their life stories (like physical and emotional abuse, etc) and having the the Forum leader do a three minute psych session with them in front of the audience. That truly is criminal. Even the RET web page called three-minute-therapy (or something like that) doesn't make claims to fixing people that quickly.
landmark doesnt make claims to do much
of anything that i can recall. they
deny that the forum is hypnosis.
but then we need to understand that
landmark has no truth. if landmark is
using hypnosis and i believe they are
maybe u can explain to me what part
of the forum is not hypnosis but then
to have them deny it would be perfectly legimate because they have
no truth.
lets quote ole werner for a moment.
his quote
"i have no truth, so what "
this comes out of the lips of werner.
this is one of his most powerful
statements.
what i find fascinating is that werner
even states he has no truth and yet
so many people go to where there is no
truth and come out saying they found it. doesnt make any sense or does it ?
The other exercise that merits discussion is the "disappearing" the headache. Landmark's approach to physical problems seems to be to treat them all as psychosomatic - even conditions like IBS which is really a wastebasket term for many conditions.
yes, everything that is not pro landmark or doesnt enhance landmarks stature is a racket, i do understand this. i do find it interesting how
landmark can use people in this fashion, their own racket if u will and have no regard for peoples real
problems.
IBS is generally given as an example of a psychosomatic condition when in fact there is a lot of research coming out that it is not. There are many conditions that are misdiagnosed as depression, merely because standard medicine and even alternative medicine doesn't dig a little bit deeper to find the true causes. To assume then that people who are depressed, have "IBS" and high blood pressure can "think" away or disappear their conditions with Landmark technology is both absurd and dangerous.
now if landmark is using hypnosis do u feel that the end justifies the means ?
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