By the way, i am speaking in a blunt way in this forum as a way to cut through all of the "hypnosis" that has gone on.

But here is the crux of the entire issue.

No one with an ounce of integrity can deny that Tony Robbins is doing most of the Persuasion Techniques I am talking about.
Robbins teaches them himself.

If a person is honest, and studies carefully, they will see it all in play.
Study Cialdini's INFLUENCE.
[www.culteducation.com]
Robbins apllies EVERY one of these techniques and many many more.
Robbins interviewed Cialidini in a Powertalk, and Robbins stated right on tape, that he wanted to learn the techniques of "Influencing people, without their knowledge". He says it right on the tape.

This is Unconscious Influence.

[www.tonyrobbins.com]

Influencing other people in such a profound way WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE is one of the defining aspects of "Thought Reform".

The only real discussion to have is WHY Robbins does this.
Anyone who looks at him will see it.
On Robbin's forum, some of the "moderators" denied he even does it. They know what he is doing, and try to cover it up for some reason. Not very smart.

Whereas Robbins is so bold, he even shows you some of what he is doing AS he is DOING IT TO YOU!!!

My guess is that only about 20% of his seminars are about the "content".
The other 80% is what he is DOING TO YOU WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE. Influencing you.

So that is the only real credible argument.

WHY is he doing it?
WHY does he do what he does to his own people?

Why is he applying the most powerful comprehensive-set of Unconscious Influence techniques in the world on thousands of his own people?

WHY?

Coz

Profit? ...ahem.....[i:7e038a4dca]Greed?[/i:7e038a4dca]

Perhaps that billion dollar goal he has set for himself for year 2012?

I would have some respect for this company if the underhanded sales techniques and fine print double talk in contracts did not exist. These two components create doubt and skepticism about its foundational ethics and integrity.
Actually the techniques of "unconscious influence" can be seen to serve the greater good when the intention is to truly help people thru challenges or get them to think/reframe in a more optimistic way. IMO, clinicians and mentors (opposed to salespeople) have a greater capacity to use these techniques wisely and responsibly.

ARGH! My last reply didn't post and I'd lost all of what I written which took quite a while. I need to be brief now as I have to leave soon.

Coz a few points...

1. I do NOT think of Tony of a miracle man, never have done. I believe in me, you, friends of mine and people like us to effect good in the world, not in salesmen.

2. Shock horror, yes Tony is a salesman. Show me an honest salesman and I'll show you a liar. A general statement sure, but based on my personal experience.

3. I never said people were suckers or that they deserved what they got. I said people need to take more responsibility for their decisions. We can't baby victims forever Coz. Otherwise they never learn from their mistakes or to take responsibility for their lives and it becomes convenient for them to blame others for their mistakes in life.

4. You said "look how much you focus on you"...well DUH! I was making a point based on MY personal experience so why else would I be referring to myself?! Coz, you talk about the seminars you have attended, the techniques you have learned, the people you know etc...you refer to yourself more in your posts than I do in mine more likely!

I am still wondering where you sourced the information you had about Tony's castle and his divorce. You also say that Tony's techniques are bad and make people feel worse? You have also said that you learned a lot of techniques from Tony. Are these the same ones? What are your criteria for judging the use and effectiveness of NLP techniques? Are you a qualified NLP practioner or just someone who loves this stuff? Honest questions Coz, I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I admire your passion here and like everyone else I'm here to learn.

Also you said there are many different roads to self improvement...name one!!! You come over like a guy only with an axe to grind Coz and that's fine you're quite entitled to grind that axe in my humble opinion but I also believe there is a lot more to you than that...sometimes your desire to enlighten others about LGAT's and the Robbins' of this world makes you look very one dimensional in your thinking which I don't believe for one minute is what you're all about. Why not have a different forum on this website specifically for self improvement/NLP techniques you can abide with or that you believe really do help people and are safe from a psychological point of view??

And thank you Coz for wishing me the best. I'm here to learn like everyone else...I just think people need to get their blinkers off when it comes down to attending LGATS or with just about anything in life!! You gotta decide what your priorities are and what is most important. I know people who have attended MU and loved it and really, truly are doing better in life. They FEEL better. I have yet to meet someone who didn't like it (although I'm sure they're out there.) I also have friends who cannot afford to but still went ahead and borrowed five grand so they could go on vacation for two weeks to somewhere exotic. Dodgy salespeople are not just limited to LGAT's...just go to your nearest travel agents 8)

I'll write more later but I really must go...I have no idea what happened to my original post...

"Certain people are VERY "suggestible". These are the people Tony can totally take for a ride to bankruptcy. (get the money to come ANY WAY YOU CAN.) He literally "hypnotizes" them as he is claiming he is de-hypnotizing them."



Funny, both L. Ron Hubbard and Werner Erhard claimed to do exactly the same thing; to "dehypnotize" people. (They were also both master hypnotists, by the way, for anyone who doesn't know.)


Ellen

Mozart, this is not about "Coz".
This thread is about the reported negative side-effects of Tony Robbins seminars. If you want to talk about how "great" Robbins is, then you know where to do it!!

Your phrase "baby victims" betrays you! :wink:
The point here is COERCIVE PERSUASION. The points I am making are meant to get people to take responsibility for their minds, and get away from Tony Robbins, and all of the other Gurus like him. (if they want to, and I suggest they do).
Even Robbins says he is not their Guru, and if you don't like what he is saying, to throw it out. Good! In this case listen to Tony! Through it out, move on, and get away from him.

As far as Robbins initial "stories" around his castle and "stories" around his divorce, they are not the real issue. The issue is about where are the FACTS to back up all of his countless stories? Stories mean nothing to me. Show me the facts.

As Carl Sagan said, "EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE".
Where's the evidence of all these claims of his?

I am not grinding an axe against Robbins, I am speaking my personal views of him and his work.
MOST of his psychological techniques are NOT helpful, in my opinion.

I can't go into the entire explanation here, but his idea of making things MUSTS actually has been shown to create psychological disturbance in people.

For example, he gets you to brainstorm out all of your life goals, your Dreamlife, "like a little child".
Then he tells you to "raise your standards" and "demand more from yourself than anyone else could ever expect" and to "turn your shoulds into MUSTS". (etc)

Why does he say this?
To make you more successful?
I don't think so!

Its step #2 of the sales process.
FIND THE CUSTOMERS PAIN, AND STIR UP THEIR PAIN, AND MAKE IT EVEN WORSE
then step #3
HEAL THEM WITH YOUR PRODUCTS AND SERVICES

Its done to work people into a frenzy so they will put their money down and buy more stuff.

I know that Robbins "believers" cannot/will not understand that, but the evidence shows its true. Look at the work of Dr Albert Ellis and CBT, who explain Musturbation and how it is at the core or emotional disturbance. (Remember Tony telling you its "good" to "get disturbed"? hmmm?)

Also, the way Robbins deals with human change is is not credible.
He claims he can change people IN ONE SESSION.

He claims he healed a woman with multiple personalities in ONE SESSION in a few minutes at a seminar. Where are her psychiatric records, before and after from her psychiatrist?
Where is a signed statement from her psychiatrist?
I have seen no evidence for the validity of this "story".

Is this another "story" to try and impress people who know nothing about psychological disorders?

He claims he can CHANGE PEOPLE fast and forever.
They go to his seminar, and then they yell,
I AM A NEW MAN!!
I CAN DO ANYTHING!
GOD WANTS ME TO BE RICH!!
I AM THE KING OF THE WORLD!!
(mania)

Well, guess what.
A few weeks/months later all of their "stuff" comes back, and people can get severely depressed.

His ideas about Belief change are flawed as well.
Here's the bottom line. He claims he can change people QUICKLY.
Why?

Its a Sales Method.

MAKE A BIG FAT CLAIM.
So then you can charge a bit fat fee. A FORTUNE.

This is not how people change. Personality Modification is a LONG-TERM project, and is subtle.

People make these BIG CLAIMS so they can CHARGE BIG FEES.

No respectable mental health professional would make his claims, if they did they would lose their license.

The point I am making is that there is a lot of manipulation going on, lots of 'stories" and few facts, and lots of hardball salesmanship on vulnerable people.
These techniques mess with peoples minds on the deepest level.

There are two separate issue's here.
-Self-help techniques Robbins "teaches". (most of these are not original and have been changed for the worse to suit his purposes)
-Unconscious Influence: this is the REAL issue and as i see it, is about 80% of what he is doing to people without their knowledge.

Sometimes it takes people 5-10 years to figure out what has been done to them. Most just BLAME THEMSELVES for failing, and then walk away, or move onto the next Guru, never thinking the Guru is the one who is full of beans.

Those who "believe" in Robbins will not be swayed by my views. The Beliefs are installed too deeply in them.
But I am encouraging people to THINK CRITICALLY about Robbins and his techniques.

When Robbins tells you in his audio that "skeptics" are "afraid", tell him to "get stuffed"!!
Any guy who is going to pitch 20 products to you in his tape program, who then tells you to "not be skeptical" has a lot of "nerve", to put it politely.

Analyze everything he is doing, study LGAT's, study "Thought Reform", study Unconscious Influence, and you will see what is going on eventually.

Don't "give yourself over to him" at his seminars.
One day you might regret it.

These deep techniques of mass-hypnosis and deep unconscious influence are terribly powerful. As powerful as they get in this world.
BEWARE.

Coz

Quote
Mozart
2. Shock horror, yes Tony is a salesman. Show me an honest salesman and I'll show you a liar. A general statement sure, but based on my personal experience.

We can't baby victims forever Coz. Otherwise they never learn from their mistakes or to take responsibility for their lives and it becomes convenient for them to blame others for their mistakes in life.

You have also said that you learned a lot of techniques from Tony. Are these the same ones? What are your criteria for judging the use and effectiveness of NLP techniques?

Also you said there are many different roads to self improvement...name one!!! You come over like a guy only with an axe to grind Coz and that's fine you're quite entitled to grind that axe in my humble opinion but I also believe there is a lot more to you than that...sometimes your desire to enlighten others about LGAT's and the Robbins' of this world makes you look very one dimensional in your thinking which I don't believe for one minute is what you're all about. Why not have a different forum on this website specifically for self improvement/NLP techniques you can abide with or that you believe really do help people and are safe from a psychological point of view??

I also have friends who cannot afford to but still went ahead and borrowed five grand so they could go on vacation for two weeks to somewhere exotic. Dodgy salespeople are not just limited to LGAT's...just go to your nearest travel agents 8)

Just to let you know that my access at the Anthony Robins Forum has been denied. They also have blocked all my private messages and therefore cannot read them.

If anyone of you (PowerGiant, Matthew, Lilly, Manta Ray, KA Ross) and many others wish to contact me, please post here or send me directly a message to my personal E-mail address : g.zaugg@freesurf.ch

Thanks for your support and warm regards to all.


Beyond & Deeper


P.S. I still havent' received any call or e-mail from the Head of the Coaching Department whose name I still don't know. I shall wait one more week before taking action. I'm afraid that what I have been reading in this Forum becomes increasingly true as I proceed. The methods they use is just the same as those practiced in a sect! Is there any institution in the USA that deals with this kind of abuse and fights to reveal the manipulations behind it all ?

Just a quick wry aside...

Recently Robbins has gotten into all sorts of "weird new-agey health" practices.

One of them is "enemas". (or whatver they call it these days. I call them enemas, as it reminds of the old movie Sybil) 8)

Also "cleanses".
Another one is when he talks about looking at your blood cells under a microscope, and how he says blood cells transmogrify from one type of cell to another. (this is some "new biology" anti-scientific unverified absurdities from his "former" buddy Robert Young). (If anyone has any scientific proof for these claims, please let me and the world scientific know so we can give out the Nobel Prizes!!)

Why the "weirdness"?

Well, first off, Robbins has publicly claimed he wants to be a Billionaire, so he is moving into the New Age health racket Big time. As he said in the NYT, "I want to own it".
That's where the REAL money is to be had, i guess.

Also, think about it.
You are getting an enema, or looking at your blood under a microscope, or eating some weird diet, and you are THINKING ABOUT TONY ROBBINS.

Is your body/consciousness now being "penetrated" to the deepest degree?
Is someone REALLY getting inside you, physically too, not just emotionally?

I am sure some folks here can point to other "culty" groups that use these types of enemas, or weird diets, or blood-letting, or whatever.

I think its a way to get an even DEEPER influence on people.

Again, I ask, WHY?
How much deeper can you go?
For what purpose?
Is it an "experiment"?

Robbins isn't dumb, but "could" he believe some of these unscientific health claims of his, when he knows all about the Placebo Effect?

I personally think its all about Deep, All-Pervasive, Unconscious Influence.

But again, I ask, WHY?

Coz

Quote
corboy
On a wry note, someone wrote a story that illustrates the dangers of trying to decondition oneself. In this case the guy became convinced that his personal hygeine would improve if he shaved out the hair from his butt crack.

To his chagrin, he discovered that without the hair, he was in a much, much worse situation before--worse than he'd ever imagined.

You know, some folks might think I am being hyperbolic about what goes on behind the curtain of the Wizard of Oz, but let me tell you something.

I saw a guy who went down to get personally "influenced" by The Wizard hisself, get totally OVEREXCITED and sign some TERRIBLE contracts. The Wiz is so talented, he convinced a small group of people to sign these terrible contracts, based on inflated projections, getting them OVEREXCITED. This guy borrowed EVERY CENT he could, and GAVE IT ALL to the Wizard. [After all, the upkeep on the Castles in Oz is not chump change!]
This guy later BEGGED The Wiz to come to a deal with him. He begged for mercy, but the Wizards People literally IGNORED him.
Just directed him to the Wizards lawyers.

This guy lost everything. His house, his cars, his furniture, everything. Bankrupt.

Guess who got the money?
The Wizard of Oz gets PAID IN FULL IN ADVANCE

The Wiz puts on a nice show when you first meet him, Mr. Nice Guy, lots of special effects, flames, bells and whistles, and he is a World-Class Expert in getting you OVEREXCITED and into a manic-state.

But ONCE YOU SIGN THOSE CONTRACTS, its a different ball-game friends. Its hardball time in the land of Oz. No more Mery Merry times. :(
I know of story after story of people who have gotten "overexcited" in the Land Of Oz and signed those pesky contracts, and then they can't get out of them. The Wiz is an EXPERT in this dark art.

-----------------
Ok, leaving the mythical Land of Oz behind us, now onto dealing with Customer Complaints and this thread.

There used to be lots of complaints on the Robbins board, but now there all almost no complaints there, while at the same time saying they WANT negative feedback.

[www.tonyrobbins.com]

Is this not cynical, smug, and manipulative?
Its not right. The above post asked for comments, and then this same forum blocked the person giving the comments!
---------------------
Be forewarned.

(Mack The Knife)
"Oh the shark has, pretty teeth dear, and he shows them pearly white. Just a jacknife has McHeath, dear, and he keeps it out of sight".

DO NOT SIGN THOSE "TRICKY" CONTRACTS AT A LGAT SEMINAR OR IN THE PRESENCE OF A SUPER-SALESPERSON.

Get a copy of it, and take it to your lawyer FIRST.
Do not sign one of these contracts for $3,000, or worse, $10,000, or $50,000, or $200,000 or more.
If you do sign these "tricky" contracts while you are "under a spell" you could be VERY SORRY.

GET THOSE CONTRACTS IN ADVANCE AND TAKE THEM TO YOUR LAWYER FIRST.
Or better yet, just walk away and take your wallet, credit cards, credit line, retirement savings, Life savings, and second mortgage on your house with you.
Or you might find yourself talking to someones lawyers.

Coz

Coz, I never wanted to talk about how 'great' Tony is, as you put it. Why are you putting things in that I never said? And if you feel I have a double agenda here call me on it! How does that phrase 'baby victims' betray me? It doesn't-but it suits your needs to take certain things I say out of context rather than take my post as a whole. I am here to learn like anyone else and yet again you haven't answered my questions on either your qualifications (which I am genuinely interested in because I feel you have a lot to offer-I'm sure we could learn a lot from your background and training-) or on what you feel are legitimate and decent forms of personal development. Either you are ignoring the questions in my post because you are unwilling to answer them (if so and for personal reasons just say so. That's a legitimate reason in my opinion) or else you are just consumed by a desire to find what is wrong with all personal development! Surely not though Coz?....but your responses so far are totally one sided and haven't addressed half of what I asked. And as for the castle/divorce, I ask Coz, because you give what you call are examples but fail to back them all up with references. You have a damn good argument at times but when you ignore certain points it weakens it.



B+D...that is a total disgrace if you've been blocked. You really need to get some LEGAL, PROFESSIONAL advice on this.

hooked on his personality isnt a teacher. A real teacher vanishes into his or her job--you go away remembering more about what they taught than about the peculiar whims of the teacher.

I recommend that you get a copy of Len Oakes' book, [i:722a6bc0aa]Prophetic Charisma[/i:722a6bc0aa].

[www.amazon.com]

Oakes surveyed 20 charismatic leaders of various groups, and found that beneath the diversity of belief systems, they were remarkably similar:

They could inspire trust and surrender in followers but for the most part, were incapable of trust and surrender, themselves.

Oakes found that the leaders who made themselves accountable to a belief system tended to do best. The leaders who made themselves the focus had a very high rate of problems.