Hi RealityRevisited

I have a very similar story to yours, except I didn't get psychosis from TR- I suffered from it after attending the landmark forum. I also had no history of psychosis at all. My psychosis lasted for more than two months. This happened from November last year until January this year. I have been having therapy since the episode but I only have two more hours of therapy to go until I'm done with it for now. My whole life was turned upside down by psychosis, I had to move back home to my parents house where I've been ever since. The good news is that I'm finally well enough again to return to my own place and start looking for a job again.

It has been a rough ride to say the least. What I recommend is that you try to remain patient, you will get better. If you're on medication, stay on it for as long as your doctor says you should. When you're feeling up to it, try and research as much as you can on the subject of mind control. I found that it helped a lot to find out what had happened to my mind, especially how I temporarily lost my ability to test reality. I suffered from severe depression during and after psychosis, and I was put onto anti-depressants for a few months- I'm currently in the last month of weaning myself off of them, because I'm feeling much better. If you are struggling with issues of spirituality- I can suggest meeting with someone who has some theology knowledge- I had a few meetings with my church minister- which helped me to deal with some issues of the spiritual kind. If you are thinking of therapy I can also recommend seeing someone who has good knowledge of hypnosis- my therapist (clinical hypnotherapist) was able to help me integrate the "cult" personality I had developed at the landmark forum, with my real self. I think that it was an important step in my recovery process. Just make sure they are qualified and registered with a reputable body/institute.

I am to remain on anti-psychotic medication for a further 18 months- which I am very happy to do since I have no side-effects. The idea of suffering another psychotic episode is a lot scarier than remaining on medication.

Hope this helps you in some way. Good luck. Get well soon. Remember you are definitely NOT alone!

Exland

Remember, these cults/groups are adept at worming their way in to whatever is most important to you and whatever frightens you the most. Once they know this, and participants offer this information up quite easily, they can twist and twist you psychologically until you are all tied up in knots. Which is exactly what they want. At that point you are theirs to manipulate. You become dependent on them to help you navigate this new upside-down world. They have no business using sophisticated psychological techniques on an unsuspecting public but that's how they get paid. Identifying these "anchor points" is important to finding your way out of the maze.


Ellen

Hi Exland

Thank you for your post - it is exceptionally comforting to know other people have been through a similar experience. I have been feeling alone since it happened. Yes, I am on anti psychotic meds, and whilst they have mild side effects, I am very happy to remain on them for as long as it takes. The thought of having another psychotic episode is genuinely terrifying.

From what I can understand, I was only psychotic for a couple of days, but then there is this long recovery time. It isn't like I have had a cold and now I am better. It is more like I broke my leg and my body requires time to heal. I have subsequently lost my job and my income with it - and with the mortgage and two kids and being a single Mum, it has changed my life completely. It is good to hear you are at a point where you mights start looking for a job again, as I would like to do that one day again too.

I am having therapy, which is helping. I like that you were able to integrate the cult/groupy personality with your true self. I am really lucky - I live in Australia and I am being provided with free psychological and psychiatric care at present. I feel I am becoming more lucid daily, and am becoming less afraid of everything, which is a big improvement.

I have to ask the question - do these groups ever take responsibility for people like us? Antony Robbins markets himself as such an ethical man, and I can't see that turning someone's life into such a mess is ethical. I guess I have a lot more reading to do, as I can't understand how anyone could run events that have such bad side effects? Or are we simply collateral damage for 'the greater good'. I know people have predispositions to certain conditions - maybe I might be predisposed to psychosis. But this was the first time, and it was almost certainly brought on by the event, including the enforced sleep and food deprivation over the 6 days leading up to it. Hmmmm.

Thanks again, and thanks Ellen too for your post

RealityRevisited

Hi.
No, they don't ever take any responsibility whatsoever for the harm they do to people.
As a matter of fact, they deliberately deny ALL responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

For example, as an experiment to find out what is really going on, a person who did experience a psychosis from this type of LGAT seminar, could attempt to inform those who run the LGAT on their public message board or in email to the company.
What will happen?
The email will be ignored, and be kept on file in for "future reference" in case they need to use it against the person in the future.
The message board post, probably would not be posted, or they will try to to play mindgames with it.

All of these LGAT seminars have these terrible types of side-effects for some people, and they just don't care. They know it happens, but they are making millions in a weekend.
They probably rationalize it in their minds somehow, blaming the victim, etc.
But in reality, its the typical stance of the Narcissist seminar leader, who only cares about themselves. (even though they may advertise the opposite).

Many people have manic and hypomanic episodes at these seminars. They WANT people to go into that manic mental state, which is why they keep pushing people into those high-energy states 18 hrs a day, while not sleeping and not eating, while being so physically active, jumping around, yelling, etc.
Why?
Because when people go "hypomanic" they will buy everything. They will spend thousands for coaching contracts on the spot. They will sign up for the entire string of seminars, that you can't get a refund from, etc.

The reality of these seminars is very ugly and very harsh, and it does not match the marketing about saving the world. Sometimes people have to find this out the hard way, as so many people won't listen to the warnings about these seminars, as they believe the marketing, until its too late.

Its profoundly wrong and even evil, what they do to "regular people" at these seminars. The seminar attended is one of the most advanced in the world, and the average person without training, has no idea of what is being done to them. If they "play full out" they are literally risking everything.

People trained in the advanced methods used by these LGAT seminar leaders, will sit near the back, and very carefully analyze everything being done to people at the seminar, and remain as detached as possible. As they work on many levels at once.
Its the regular everyday folks who don't have training in these areas, who go up to the front of the room, and "play full out", and many of them do flip-out and get hysterical, in one way or another. Some go hypomanic, and buy everything that is for sale, which is why they have been pushed into that hysterical mental state by the seminar leader.

But others are pushed right over the edge.
They are collateral damage, but only for the greater good of the bank accounts of the seminar owners and promoters.
Be very careful of going to these same seminar people with the negative results, as they will try to encourage the victim to go to MORE seminars, believe it.


What is the ultimate insight, at the end of all of the seminars sold in this area?
Many people who have gone through all the seminars have said what it is. The supreme insight is that if you have the right techniques, you can sell anyone anything, for any price.
People learn at the end of all these seminars, that they have been sold an illusion for more than 50K. (any actual info in the seminars can be aquired from a few books).

The professional salespeople who attend these seminars usually "get it" and then go and try to use the techniques on others.
But the shocking insight at the end of the seminar rainbow is that the person has been sold an illusion.
The seminar leader probably tries to massage his conscience by telling himself that he is teaching people how not to get scammed in society, by teaching them a lesson in getting scammed they will never forget.

But that is the insight that many pay 50K-100K to learn.
Werner Erhard did the same thing, at the end of his seminars, you learn its all about "nothing".
You see, these professional salespeople found it easier to sell "nothing" than to sell "something".
They are selling complete illusions.

Tony Robbins is explained a bit in the book SHAM, which libraries should have.
[shambook.blogspot.com]
[shambook.blogspot.com]

Quote
RealityRevisited
I have to ask the question - do these groups ever take responsibility for people like us? Antony Robbins markets himself as such an ethical man, and I can't see that turning someone's life into such a mess is ethical. I guess I have a lot more reading to do, as I can't understand how anyone could run events that have such bad side effects? Or are we simply collateral damage for 'the greater good'. I know people have predispositions to certain conditions - maybe I might be predisposed to psychosis. But this was the first time, and it was almost certainly brought on by the event, including the enforced sleep and food deprivation over the 6 days leading up to it. Hmmmm.

Thanks again, and thanks Ellen too for your post

RealityRevisited

RealityRevisited

I'm very sorry to hear that you lost your job because of this, is there not some way you could get you psychologist or psychiatrist to write your ex-employer a letter or something to help you get your job back when you're feeling well enough.

The worst part about what happened to me was that I had a high speed car-accident whilst in psychosis- and ended up in hospital. After my first night in hospital the leader of the landmark forum I attended came to my bedside held my hand and said to me that if I don't tell the doctor I'm fine and come down stairs to the parking lot where he would wait for me, that I would end up seeing psychiatrists and psychologists for the rest of my life. I was in such a hypnotised state, that I tried to lie to the doctor and leave the hospital, but luckily the hospital staff didn't let me leave. I actually believed what he said to me for about a month after my breakdown and I even tried to contact the center where I attended the landmark forum for help or what they call "coaching".

The thing about landmark education is that the so-called forum leaders are so brainwashed that they actually believe every bit of pseudo-enlightenment nonsense that they've been taught. I'm not sure whether Tony Robbins is in charge or if there is someone else stringing him along? At landmark we were taught to specifically not take responsibility for people who we enroll for the forum, they say we should be accountable but not responsible. It's seriously devious stuff. My friend who enrolled me witnessed my psychotic breakdown, he doesn't take any responsibility, and I don't hold him responsible because he had no idea he had been brainwashed. In fact he still doesn't, however he has promised me that he will never attend another course with landmark education and he will never try to enroll anyone else.

I have since been in email contact with my forum leader and asked him to get me help with paying my medical bills. However I'm still waiting!

Keep well
Exland

Hi

I’m new here but have a question that deeply concerns me often.

Firstly not to sound biased or one sided. I do actually have treatment for depression, panic and periods of irrational thinking, mostly CBT but I value professional trained help. And it does make a huge difference to my world view and ability to cope.

So I genuinely and truly love my partner and she is an amazing person, and despite my illness or the effect of it when I suffer. I care deeply for her.

But my concern is this.

We are all allowed to question or to be uncertain, or to be flawed in some capacity.

But my partner seems to be very hooked up on self help books, and Tony Robbins or a lot of things that involve 10 steps or personal accounts of triumph overcoming tragedy.

Now I’ve watched some of his stuff and read huge reviews and critiques of his methods. I also understand that words are very powerful indeed, and I do enjoy etymology. However I also understand the influence of “Confessional Power” and the ability it holds over people who are either vulnerable or in difficult times in life.

I see my doctors and psychiatrist and talk to friends, but I don’t always agree. And I realise too they never try and put words or thoughts in my mouth, merely observe and offer suggestion. And for my benefit I write out my thoughts and try to rationalise them if I feel i’m struggling. And always remain open to compromise.

But I have found some very constructive arguments against people like Mr Robbins and this whole cult of self. Or their manipuation of others. It’s like the notion of power emotions?

Now I am over a barrel on this though. Because I do dearly love my partner, and yet suffer illness. I am at a loss to say that I find it very subversive or controlling. That it denies you ittellectual freedom or a natural emotional voice. Also the props, words and phrases are mostly vacant and empty statements that are designed to mislead or pull you away from reasoned logic.

If I dare make any critique of her beliefs or try to have an open discussion, I am told it is my illness or that I am the one who is controlling or negative or destructive and paranoid.

Thing is I know the difference between my being irrational and the fact I care for her. And that this whole concept of the super self or power self is not normal. This eternal seeking? Everyone has dreams and desires regardless of who or what they are.

I also believe in God but I often wonder why, and I am allowed to question this and the notion of religion. but to me it is deeply personal, nor do I expect others to agree or believe. I like my athiest friends as much as those I know who believe. It gives me balance. Nor would I be foolish enough to assert I am 100% correct in my beliefs, but it gives me hope often. My partner is a lot more devout than me too.

Thing is I respect her right to make choices, to hold her beliefs. But due to me often being ill I find it very difficult to approach this subject for fear of being told I’m mocking?

In reality I genuinely love and care, but people like Mr Robbins genuinely concern and worry me with their over simplistic self promotion. In a way to me it seems a contradiction? they talk about the self and how to be the self and grow the self or what ever it is they manufacture, yet at the same time they are hijacking somebody elses self with their mesmeric cunning.

It concerns me deeply.

Any clues on how to tackle this? Right now I have realised space and off topic while I think more constructively seems wise. But it is distressing.

Thanks to all who have shared experiences and information in this incredible and enlightening thread. In particular to The_Anticult. I have learned a lot and appreciate it. I have a few friends who purchased Tony Robbins PERSONAL POWER II tapes and they loved it and felt it really helped them in many ways. Yet these same friends have NOT, I repeat, NOT attended any of Tony Robbins seminars nor his Mastery Universtity nor gone into business with him. Some of these same friends have purchased his books Unlimited Power and Awaken the Giant Within. They have spent no more than $100 total (bought the tape series used and some downloaded for free) and swear they got more out of his products than years of therapy. I do not know why they never went further beyond the tapes and books. They did mention that one didnt need the books at all if they got PERSONAL POWER II. What I would like to know is

A) Does Tony Robbins in fact teach some sound principles and concepts even though he upsells expensive seminars and courses?
B) That something besides the placebo effect "helped" my friends?
C) Tony Robbins is a big TAKE ACTION guy which may be a result of his "manic" phases?
D) Any validity to his concept of PAIN vs PLEASURE regarding human behavior.?
E) Where did Tony Robbins get the PAIN vs PLEASURE concept from and Who did Tony Robbins learn all his "stuff" and "tricks" from?
F) Any potential danger from reading his books or listening to his tapes IF one never attends his seminars or Mastery University?

Thanks to all who can answer these questions



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2012 01:29AM by JayJoseph.

Some very good questions above, of course it would take a long time for detailed answers.

These days, all of the products mentioned can in fact be dowloaded from things like Torrents on the internet.
But even if they are free, are they useful or harmful?

Robbins has not thought of ANYTHING of his own. If anyone can find one original thing in anything Robbins does, please post it. Its all just copied from other people, without saying who he "stole" it from.

Robbins always has at least 2 levels going on, the basic content, and then the meta-context where he is messing with your head to sell you his junk.

Does Robbins teach sound principles? No, they are not sound. There are not proven or tested.

Robbins claims he is a big "take action" guy, but is he?
Most of his businesses other than his seminars have FAILED and lost a fortune, often of other's money.
His marriage failed while he preached to have the answer to happy relationships.
His claims about his first house, and many other claims he made are completely false, and have been proven so.
There are many reports of Robbins giving terrible seminars where he was sloppy, lazy, and repetitive, as well as being very overweight, which of course contradicts all of his alleged teachings.
So does Robbins "take action" or is it a propaganda mirage?

Pain-Pleasure is true, and is from Behaviorism. That has nothing to do with Robbins, he just distorts behaviorism, and leaves out the cognitive aspect which came later.

Robbins learned his stuff from the NLP guys, and from many self-help seminar hucksters. Robbins is simply a Confidence-Man.
Just recently, many people were badly burned at a Robbins seminar.

[forum.culteducation.com]

[www.radaronline.com]

So even if there are some things from others in Robbins materials, are they worth downloading for free?
One would have to say no.
As the programs are full of upselling and propaganda for Robbins. they are inverwoven.
And if they don't work as advertised many people get lured to his seminars, and into the Robbins machine.

And the "action plan" put forward in Robbins programs, do they work, or do they create even more stress for people?
Do they work over the long term?
Anecdotal claims are useless, and there have been no tests.

Guthy-Renker Corp made Tony Robbins on TV, and when they dropped his programs, he became a fringe self-help guru again.

There is no question people listen to these programs and get hyped-up for a short period of time. But at the same time they are having their minds filled with misinformation and Robbins propaganda.

One would have to say that no, they are not worth listening to.
but of course some people will listen to them, but this is very very tricky, as Robbins is very clever. Listening to his material can lure a person into a 10+ year system of giving Robbins tens of thousands of dollars you don't have.

Every LGAT says "try it for yourself" which is like telling a fish to bite into the bait on a hook.
So a fisherman who wants to sell fish for profit, is telling all the fishes..don't worry, bite into the delicious piece of meat and shiny-bait on the end of my fishing hook. A few fishes are able to bite the meat off and not get hooked, or escape by ripping the hook through their face by a fluke.

Maybe you won't be like all of the other fish that got hooked, reeled-in, netted, clubbed, and then sliced-up, gutted and sold for profit?




(one may notice that Robbins has not released a book in many years...why? Some reports say its due to his divorce settlement, where he had to split his company with his ex-wife, and he refuses to release more books where she would profit from that side of the business. So instead, he just focusses on the live-seminars, where all the cash goes straight to him.)
So if you want to learn to be a ruthless Shark and Confidence-Man, that can be learned from Robbins.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2012 05:57AM by The Anticult.

Thank you The Anticult for your well thought out explanation and insight. Some general questions and thoughts in relation to what you wrote

-I have not read Awaken the Giant Within or Unlimited Power but does Tony Robbins NOT share his "sources" in a bibliography?

-Are there any articles or threads that discuss the META-CONTEXT he uses to sell his junk? Is the META-CONTEXT he uses typical of many people who work as Salesmen and Saleswomen?

-It would appear that the PLACEBO EFFECT very may well have been what helped my friends. I think I have underestimated how strong, valid, and realistic the Placebo Effect works in with people looking for help. Also, I think what helped my friends more than anything is that they overcame PROCRASTINATION as they took massive actions in response to Tony Robbins suggestions. They attributed this taking massive action to Tony Robbins "suggestions" and "commands"...

- I ASSUMED there were some USEFUL and SOUND concepts and knowledge in Tony Robbins products because some people have been helped by his products (at least they claim they have been). I thought there were possibly some sound concepts thrown in there with all his upselling "stuff" to lure people to his seminars and Mastery University and one-on-one coaching sessions

-Is there a website that has the reports of Tony Robbins being lazy, fat, unmotivated during his seminars?

1. Are you referring to Richard Bandler in relation to NLP stuff taught to Tony Robbins?
2. Who are the OTHER SELF-HELP SEMINAR HUCKSTERS?

-The PAIN and PLEASURE concepts taught by Behaviorism are in fact scientifically valid and rational?

-Anecdotal claims are useless because the people could lie about the products effects or get paid to give false testimonials or have results based on the Placebo Effect?


As P.T. Barnum famously said "There is a sucker born every minute"....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2012 11:28AM by JayJoseph.

- Robbins does not use a bibliography! He claims he thought everything up himself!
- he does promote various other books and programs, but just as cross-marketing.

- Unlimited Power is just copying NLP.
- Awaken the Giant is NLP using different words NAC, so the NLP founders could not sue him. Literally. NAC, Neuro-Associative Conditioning is complete bullshit Robbins pulled out of his _____.

- all of the meta-level stuff Robbins is doing is discussed in these threads, and here and there on the net. Basically its the Meta-Sales process Robbins is doing to your brain, while he is talking about something else. Like Conversational Hypnosis.


- Not only placebo, but also the Confirmation Bias, where they only notice what they want to notice. [www.skepdic.com]
There are many good books on Procrastination, Robbins has nothing new. Make a list of 4 things to do today, and force yourself to do them, writing out the consequences of not doing them, and the benefits of doing them.
Robbins has no new info on Procrastination, there are much better books on that.


There MAY be some ok info mixed into Robbins material, but is it worth the risk? Its like saying Scientology has some info mixed into it, or Landmark has some info mixed into it.
But that "good info" is just the bait on the hook.
Robbins material is constant upselling to his LGAT seminars.


There was an entire website with a photo of Robbins from a seminar where he was quite overweight, and full of complaints about how the seminar was terrible, and how Robbins was just repeating his same junk and selling his crap.
Robbins closed that website down with a SLAPP suit, as is his standard practice. [en.wikipedia.org]


Pain and Pleasure are real, but humans are not like mice, so that is where the Cognitive revolution came in.
Search Google for:

behaviorism pain pleasure


anecdotal (testimonial) evidence [www.skepdic.com]

Sadly, Robbins will continue to lure people into his LGAT seminar web, take 10's of thousands of their dollars, and more, get them to work for him for free, and 100 other bad things.
And like any LGAT cultish group, some will continue to shill for him.

Robbins books are useless. They are out of date now by many years, and Robbins has no qualifications or proof for his exaggerated claims. Its a big load of BS, if anyone researches it carefully.

The Robbins LGAT seminars are extremely dangerous for people, many people get hurt in various ways. But what can they do about it? They usually blame themselves, or if they blame Robbins, how are they going to hold Robbins to account?

Perhaps only a class-action against Robbins by a group of injured person's could succeed.