If anyone doubts the factual accuracy of some of the things i have said about these firewalking seminars, then please read this excerpt from a customer.
Notice the "programmed confusion" and the long hours of the seminar with no breaks, and the "love bombing" and the pushing the limits of peoples physical endurance until their body gives them a surge of "emergency energy", etc.

Do you see what he does to people? Everytime? For over 20 years?

I have tears in my eyes as i write this, as most people have no idea of what is happening to them. They are just flung into this "life-changing" powerful emotional experience, the likes of which they have never felt in their lives.

And the entire Show is being run by the Master Mass Hypnotist, The Wizard Of Oz, the NLP expert, who knows how to get DEEP into a person's mind, behaviors, emotions, and even deep into their Soul, for the rest of their life, in many cases.

I have not yet even commented how The Wizard gets DEEP into people's "Souls", into their most SACRED spaces in their psyche, where he becomes a part of their Identity as much as their sacred traditions and religions. This is some of his most powerful "work".
I know exactly how he does that, but it is quite subtle. Hopefully I'll get to that soon.

I hope those who doubt what I have been saying are beginning to make sense out of what I have been saying here.

Coz
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www.tonyrobbins.com/community/showthread.php?s=c62752edf572fd576b61b71e626f9120&threadid=21721

"It is so wonderful that you found your lost soul. That really was a life transforming moment. Everyone who played full out of it benefitted greatly from the seminar. I won't say that was a seminar, it was more like a gorgeous party or a wonderful game. We were learning the invaluable principles through the 3.5 days' party Tony creates for us!

We were laughing, singing, dancing, clapping, jumpping, hugging all the time. Every minute was full of suprise, joy and appreciation. The longest day ran from 10am to 2am next morning with 2 very short breaks. Some of us still thought it could be longer since we certainly could have more fun!
Do you remember the game "Sam says"? ...At the end of the game, everyone was suddenly enlightened that goal setting is important. and we will never forget this lesson. What a brilliant guy he is to teach us the principle in this way!

Everyone laughed so hard about the winning lady's joke. I never got it. I wish I did, but as a foreigner, sometimes I just cannot get it. (Tony says" if I cannot, it is a must", then what should I do?)

Also, one point that seems to get continually lost in the shuffle, is that in fact yes, there are people who go to these LGATS that don't have their life wrecked by them. There are also people who go who don't get much of anything out of them. It just bounces right off them for some reason, or turns them off, or bores them, and they just walk away.

This is actually my point.

If everyone was like this, the Guru would not make very much money!!

These LGATS are set up to prospect, locate, sort, and then take advantage of VULNERABLE people. They are the ones who are suggestible, and can get caught up, and worked into a frenzy, and lose themselves, and even wreck their lives.

I am curious about the argument that gets trotted out by followers of a specific LGAT who say, "well, its been good to me".
Well, firstly, they could be still in denial about the persuasion process, and they don't know where its going to end up yet. It ain't over until its over.
Also, they are being totally selfish and self-centered, (which is to be expected) as all they care about is their "own experience".

The reality is that there is a significant group of people who DO get caught in the trap, and get taken for a very expensive ride.
The LGAT will NOT warn these people, as a high percentage of their income comes from folks who happen to be suggestible, and happen to have some money to burn.

IF there is any valid psychological info in the LGATs I have seen, to me this info is totally ruined by all of the garbage around it. These LGAT's are a terrible way to learn, in my opinion. And who wants to manufacture some "faux feelings" on the whim of a Guru? Not me.

The old statement that "hey, the seminar didn't harm me" is a totally pointless argument to me.
I have never said it harms EVERYONE.
I have always said there is a certain % of the audience who get caught up, and get bilked.
This is who I am talking about.

For instance, a Franchise deal was pitched to me years ago after an LGAT. I got all the papers, etc. I probably still have them filed away. I looked them over, and I KNEW it was not viable in about 10 minutes. I knew it would NEVER work.
But many other people got "suckered" into this Franchise deal, and many lost everything. I knew one of these guys, and he was just a simple, trusting guy, who knew NOTHING about NLP or Trance work. Whereas I am a hardass, who knows a lot about these things, so I could see right through the BS, even years ago.
My view on the Franchising "deal", LONG BEFORE it turned sour, was that is was simply just a VERY HIGH TICKET CUSTOMER for the LGAT, and not a real franchise. They were just a customer pumping in around $150,000+ to the LGAT company.
In this case I was right.
Is my point clear, that they seek out the folks who can get tricked, and have access to money, borrowed or otherwise?
They don't waste time on a guy like me.

Also, there are Sharks who LOVE these LGAT's, as they can LEARN how to do it. There are also folks who have just a mild response, or none.

Again, I am not talking about these people.

Telemarketing scammers go after senior citizens and other VULNERABLE people. They don't go after people who will tell them to "f*ck off" and hang up.

LGAT's also go after the vulnerable people, and then take them for whatever they have.
These are the people I am talking about, and they are only a certain % of all the people who go there, but they are the ones getting burned.

I am not exaggerating the extent of what is going on behind the scenes.
Its pretty ugly and dirty behind the Magic Curtain, and there are lots of rats and cockroaches in the kitchen, even though your meal might taste and look just fine. But there might be somewhat of a foul taste in your mouth you are wondering about...
And that hotdog might taste just fine to you, but not many people have an appetite for hot dogs once they see how they are made in the factory...

Coz

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Now--to Coz observations about Tony's use of profanity:

1) Is only Tony or members of his inner circle allowed to use profanity? If so, it could be a covert status symbol

2) The sudden use of profanity could be a subtle, thought stopping shock tactic. Perhaps he may use swear words to 'jolt' people and increase the impact of some verbal anchor/meme he's covertly slipping in.

Just to add another possibility, the sudden use of profanity is also an indicator of the onset of a hypomanic or manic episode. I speak with personal experience.

Coz,

The LGATs provide a sense, however ephemeral, of community and spiritual bonding that many people haven't experienced or no longer have in their lives. That these events have dark, devious undercurrents is blithely ignored by most, desperate as they are for an experience to make their life sparkle. LGATs are legal drugs, as they truly simulate the same effect as cocaine or other mania-inducing drugs. As with alcohol consumption, some people can have a drink or two or get smashed for a night, and walk away. Others become alcoholics. Legality makes addiction acceptable and puts the onus on the unsuspecting victim.

Many people with stronger internal resources simply can't understand the extreme vulnerability of some people and how these type of events are engineered to hook you for life. And that even they could be victimized and hooked in ways they didn't know were possible.

A friend used to practice his Haitian drumming while I visited. I found that at times, while reading a magazine or using his computer, I would drop what I was doing and go into a light trance state, just sitting there, unable to move. I thought maybe I was having some sort of weird low blood sugar attack, but then I would suddenly snap out of it. This wasn't a typical hypoglycemic reaction. I finally figured out it was related to the drumming and he told me that some of the patterns he played were used in all night "vodoun" rites. He had no idea these patterns could so easily induce trance states and had thought it was alcohol or drugs that did it.

There is a deep spritual void in our McDonald's culture. LGATs are filling it.

What can we do to counter?

Hey Cosmo,

I love your information about Tony Robbins. It really got me thinking. I have only read his book, ''Unlimited Power''.

Tony Robbins learned the basics of firewalking when he attended a firewalk led by Tolly Burkan. Tolly and his ex-wife Peggy Dylan basically started the firewalking movement in the United States, back in the 1980’s. Tolly did a firewalk on the Geraldo Rivera talk show in the U.S. Tony went to one firewalk and, being the fast learner he is, he just added it to his arsenal. Tolly and Peggy were quite irked for years that he didn’t get ‘certified’ as a firewalking instructor by them, but hey, there is no copyright on firewalking, and they got more customers as a result of Tony, so it all worked out in the end. I attended an intensive with Tolly and Peggy, and staffed on a few of Peggy’s seminars after she separated from Tolly. It can be a very fun thing to do, firewalking, but it is intense. I’ve seen Tony Robbins’ style. I don’t like it much. Peggy does many styles - long straight path fires, round fires, etc. She’s a disciplined teacher but she also throws in some fun and variety once people get used to it. She also does not insist that people walk and does not tell them when to walk. One of the things she teaches is discerning if and when you are ready. Sometimes she doesn’t even walk at firewalks she leads. I like that.

As for how Tony R. is adding ‘products’, well every seller needs new products sometimes. I know from experience that the BIG guys borrow material from each other. There was a small group of them who toured the lecture circuit for a while. They gave material to each other. Sometimes they ‘stole’ themes and ideas from each other. One of them even attended one of the other one’s intensive trainings, and later quoted the other guy in his next book. He was as blown away by the training as the regular people, if not more. Sometimes these guys just get bored with their old stuff, or they have some personal problem that they need to solve and they include it in their next book or lecture. Aren’t they usually teaching what they most need to learn?

About the idea that intensive trainings are designed to create manic experiences, I don’t know if they do it intentionally or not. I tend to think that the teachers and leaders are often manic themselves but see themselves as just high energy people. Or, they know they are manic and don’t accept the psychiatric ‘label’, or the doctors don’t help them, so they go out and try to prove the doctors wrong. Can you spell L. Ron Hubbard? I don’t know much of Tony Robbins’ history. But, just as only some people are triggered into mania by anti-depressants, only some people get too high or psychotic as a result of attending intensive seminars, and the story continues. There are lawsuits which increase awareness of the pitfalls and dangers and there are still a lot of people who attend. It’s such a bite. There is no spender like a manic spender! We might be quite responsible for keeping the economies of the world going . . .

And the profanity? Well, it is a shock tactic, but inappropriate sex talk does pop out of manic people’s mouths quite often. Hypersexuality is another symptom of mania. Have you noticed how many of these ‘teachers’ are involved in sex scandals? Sex, drugs, and rock and roll - and money. Everything to the extreme. It’s the manic way.

Sylvia

Sylvia

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[b:a4e41f5ba2]I don’t know if they do it intentionally or not. I tend to think that the teachers and leaders are often manic themselves but see themselves as just high energy people. Or, they know they are manic and don’t accept the psychiatric ‘label’, or the doctors don’t help them, so they go out and try to prove the doctors wrong. Can you spell L. Ron Hubbard?[/b:a4e41f5ba2]

From my own experience and that of others, the greater tendency is to reject a diagnosis. Who wants to stop feeling as if they're on top of the world? Also, once a bipolar diagnosis is given, the possibility of a personality disorder isn't pursued, which may actually be the real problem. Both organic mental illness problems and personality disorders breed behavior patterns throughout a family's history. Our consumer culture and increasingly short attention span creates the "quick fix" climate. Plunk down a credit card and everything is gonna be OK. After all, you have to work to pay off your credit cards, right?

And that's where the idea of work is displaced: NOT as actual work on ourselves, but that we've worked so we can plunk down X amount to get "fixed." We worked for and purchased a product, we're entitled to feel "fixed." And if you don't feel "fixed," buy more product, after all it's your fault, right? A pretty slick magic trick, no? No [i:a4e41f5ba2]caveat emptor [/i:a4e41f5ba2]here applies!

This is not expressed as clearly as I'm trying to, if there's someone else who gets the gist of it and can state it better, please do!
[/i]

Hey T.B.O.

Most of us resist psychiatric diagnosis. I had three major manic episodes before I got a grip and turned myself in. Seven years of roller coaster living, just hoping it wouldn’t happen again . . . But when you do get a diagnosis it is a place to start finding a ‘cure’. Of course some of the mainstream cures are not pleasant but if you can get stable enough you can then start looking for alternatives, which is what I have been doing. After three years on Depakote and it’s guaranteed tiredness and sleepiness I re-started some research on food, vitamins and minerals. I have started a new thread in the RECOVERY section here on this site. I’ll be staying on a small dose of Depakote until I dare try not using it, which may be never because I just don’t want to be so out of control of myself ever again.

As for personality disorders, yeah psychiatrists really are just drug pushers and I have resisted most of their recommendations to take an anti-depressant because they can make me manic. I tell them I would rather be slightly depressed than risk that. Dealing with personality disorders might fall more into the realm of Clinical Psychologists, if you can find one who is taking new clients! Personally, I don’t have health insurance, so I occasionally attend twelve-step meetings - Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACOA), or Co-dependants Anonymous (CODA). There’s nothing like telling your story or listening to others. And it’s free. I don’t know . . . there seem to be so many manic-depressive people coming out of the closet these days that it’s almost becoming fashionable. People don’t seem to view it as such a stigma. I don’t go around telling everyone I meet that I’m manic-depressive, just my friends and family. Sometimes even when I tell a long distance friend for the first time they don’t understand it and minimize it. They just can’t believe it because they haven’t seen me when I’m nutty, or they didn’t recognize it when I was.

So, anyway, check the nutrition thread under the recovery section. It’s only a start.

Sylvia

Sylvia,

Sorry, my intention was that I was agreeing with you, and I don't deny that a diagnosis gives you a starting point. I was just trying to state that some people will unequivocally reject a label because they want to be on top of the world and don't want to stop feeling like that, because as you stated, "teachers and leaders . . . see themselves as high energy people." That's probably how they define their manic episodes, they truly have no idea they're over the top. That high energy attracts a lot of lower energy people who want to feel like that, who don't understand the conseqences of operating at that intensity.

To stay on topic here, mania + NPD combined = despot. And the most insidious type of despot being the "benevolent despot," who can invisibly invade our minds and hearts then rule with an iron fist. Big Bro.

As I'm not attracted to LGATs, learned a long time ago to avoid flashing lights, loud music, extended periods awake, maintain proper nutrition, moderate workouts, rarely watch TV, avoid violent films and other such over-stimulus activities, I was one of those people that were indifferent to what happened at these venues. Coz made me realize that you have to be concerned, people are getting burned out there, and very badly. If not the first time, then after a few times.

Marketing tactics now employ terroristic brainwashing techniques. But because the hot lights are in a big, feel-good arena and not in an interrogation cell, people don't recognize what's hitting them hard in the head.

TBO,

Obviously disclosure is voluntary but was wondering if you have been victimized by a particular cult like group and if so what method of indoctrination pulled you into the fold so to speak?

Thankfully you avoided LGATs and like almost any person diagnosed with a psychaitric disorder I beleive it is good to employ healthy skepticism and seek second, third opinions as needed from a variety of unaffiliated professional licensed counselors from varied disciplines. Having been educated in a counselling field, the harsh reality is a patient must be given a "billable" diagnosis- and personality disorders fall under an unbillable axis/code.

I have a relative who was diagnosed with bipolar disorder when he was suicidal and having substance abuse issues. His manic states were actually periods of intoxication from the various substances he used. He was also given the label of schizophrenic by another professional. In the end, at least 5 years later, it was detemined he was suffering depression in reaction to his wife's infidelity and later divorce. His abiliity/comfort in recognizing and disclosing his underlying issues took quite a while and it was especially difficult for him to think clearly when he was under the inluence of various hard core psychotropic medications.