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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: Christa ()
Date: March 21, 2010 07:31AM

Ten years ago when I was being pressured to attend the classes, the first thing I did was start to research Keith Raniere on the internet. There wasn't much information, but there were articles on Consumers Buyline along with mention of his genious IQ. I thought he was a conman, had no interest in learning anything from the guy and watched as person after person went to the classes and returned with the knowledge that Vanguard had been essentially screwed by the government. He was so smart and the government didn't understand him or his genious or his way of doing business. It was bullshit then and I saw right through it. These incredibly smart, professional people came back like zombies, convinced of the improbable! What I am trying to say is this- I never got there!!

I have read extensively about mind control on this website and others and I am not being critical of the people who have been sucked into the cult we discuss here and others... I am trying to understand how in this day and age, with so much information available about NXIVM there are people who don't put more thought into getting involved to begin with. A friend suggests taking a class and maybe you are having a rough time and it sounds like it would help you to reach a certain level of success... fine. But, if you are going to spend thousands of dollars on anything, most folks do research. You get on the internet and you read and learn and evaluate before making any big purchases, don't you? This is what I mean when I mention people's personality and vulnerability play into their involvment... they have to be ripe for the picking to get involved.

I am in no way being critical of the countless victims already so far in they need intervention. I am simply trying to put out there, for the next victim, that you must think for yourself, not listen to your friend or relative, and do a thorough investigation before jumping into something so damaging. Do what I did and trust your gut instincts.

"Do what I did and trust your gut instincts."

Are you kidding? You have got to be kidding.

I'm not sure you're here trying to understand the issues involved in cult recruitment, bigskeptic. It would take a lot of nerve to hold yourself up as a role-model for cult avoidance if you don’t understand those issues. And it’s not obvious to me that you do. Your posts sound awfully smug.

Further, claiming that "I am in no way being critical of the countless victims already so far in they need intervention” does not change the fact that being critical of countless victims is exactly what you’re doing.

The particular way you trumpet your own ability to resist Raniere's enticements implicitly criticizes those who, at a particular time in their lives, didn't have that ability. Whether you intend to do so or not.

Also, I gotta tell you, you’re not the first person to suggest people think for themselves and research groups that offer them membership. Truly, “thinking” and “research” are not fresh new ideas. They are also not the solution to the problem of destructive mind control. Although it would be great if they were.

If your intentions are to learn, and to help others, your recent posts do not reflect that very well.

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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: Macumazahn ()
Date: March 21, 2010 12:11PM

   Is ESP/NXIVM expensive? Sure! But so are most of the other management and success schools, even the ‘proper’ ones; and remember, that is what this organisation poses as in the first place. (The business and world ethics message is merely an extension; probably why after ESP they founded NXIVM as an umbrella; and of course to have a vessel to collect the espians of whom even they could not expect another round of the same modules to be taken. (In the ESP Training Materials as contained in the patent application for Rational Inquiry™ (1999) on public record at WIPO, on practically every ‘Student Self Report’, the first time on ‘Honesty and Disclosure’ pg 79, in the bottom third, 3 times 21 modules at least.)

   NXIVM works mostly with word of mouth recruitment as far as I know. That means that one only hears about them, when a colleague, friend or closer tells you about it. Sure, some will do some research – which means that they’ll most likely look at the NXIVM and ESP homepages. ‘A bit full of themselves,’ will be the verdict; but then, so is every other school, every product, every company in the world! It seems to be the point of marketing to come across as some self-deluded, essentially arrogant and aggressive company these days; and frankly, our critical thinking has been blunted by the excess of that; it’s normal, so why should we suspect anything nefarious.

   The recruit is interested to attend a school or seminar on management success, so the idea that they look for anything further is questionable. But let us assume that by chance they actually stumble across some articles on this here page; and it is after all one of the few observers of such organisations that actually mentions NXIVM; others look mostly only at religious groups and in society at large, the word ‘cult’ is more associated with those as well. So the recruit might find some mention here; but their recruiter can easily alleviate any concerns: RR is gunning for them for whatever reasons; people who don’t understand something always paint it in the darkest colours; it’s only envy about our chance at success, fulfilment and happiness; etc…

   Well, whom do you think you’ll trust? The internet with its known unreliability? Some apparently vindictive organisation? The whim of the wider public, who all would like to be successful too but haven’t figured it out yet? No, you’ll trust the person you know, whom you like, your brother, mother, boyfriend, best friend, etc.; because, if we cannot trust our close ones, whom can we trust then; and what kind of a life would that be, constantly vigilant and suspecting of all and sundry, alone and desolate? (Sounds awfully similar to what the members of these organisations go through themselves!) You go there open-minded and trusting; and that’s pretty much when they’ve got you, with very few exceptions.

   On the issue of the impossibility of giving an honestly ‘fully-informed consent’ at entry into such an organisation, look also at this Anticult post on the James Ray thread (and my post on another forum). It describes the problem of the organisations’ generating ‘voluntary’ consent. It also mentions ‘integrity’, ‘commitments’ and other such stuff. Espians too talk about endangering their ‘personal integrity’ and failing in their ‘commitment to persistence’ when they address a doubting fellow member. If you read some of the blogs and posts by espians out there, you’ll find they value ‘accountability and responsibility’, honour, humanity, etc. very high; not bad things at all, but in their case somehow skewed and blown out of proportions, ambiguous, and often seemingly unrelated in context.

   The state itself inadvertently provided one of the most convincing sales arguments to many of these organisations, NXIVM as well: The Trademark and patent pending terms give weight and in a sense even governmental approval and thus alleviate many doubts; if the state finds nothing wrong, then it has to be good, right? It doesn’t matter that they’ll never get the patent, just file it and they will have many more customers.

   The legal framework I mentioned in my previous post has to include a twofold provision to address this problem:

   First, for any patent, which potentially has any form of impact on somebody’s personality or mental state, that is any pedagogic, self-help and the like method or product, specialists from all fields implied and associated need to take a thorough look at the application. If they find such propensity or even outright proof (as one can ad absurdum in the Rational Inquiry™ patent application), then the patent has to be rejected and even the terms ‘pending’ and Trademark denied until such matters have been properly addressed and amended.

   Secondly and in addition, this case should be accompanied by a recommendation or an alarm to the appropriate authorities to investigate and keep under close observation any application of said methods or product, i.e. put the organisation or company under the closest scrutiny, inspections and investigations on all levels, including the past of its leaders/heads, founders, coaches and other ranking operatives. It is not enough just to know about this, but the state has a protective obligation to ensure that these dangerous methods and products are never utilised on its people. Free Trade does not mean that we blindly let every monster loose on everybody at will, including ourselves and our loved ones!

   One last point that should under such a system finally raise the alarms. As far as I know, pyramid or ponzi schemes are illegal in the US where this patent has been applied for in the first place. How then can a patent that clearly has all the hallmarks of such a scheme, blatantly defined in hierarchies, promotions based on recruitment (others are implied but never described) giving access to ‘special information’, not automatically involve the authorities; especially, since the applicant in this case already has a history of creating and operating such schemes. (In the ESP Materials, ‘Rules and Rituals’ pg 60, ‘2. Promotion: …’)

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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: enufalready ()
Date: March 21, 2010 09:20PM

If the entire NXIVM training manual is available to the public online at WIPO, how is it that Rick Ross can get sued for making any of it available to the public?

This organization is an MLM, which they deny if you ask. My guess is because it rides a very legal fine line. My understanding is that Keith is legally prohibited from being involved with another MLM, which is why nothing is in his name. I don't understand why authorities are not involved or are not investigating. Why is Andrew Cuomo not all over this?

The entire program and all the modules are carefully crafted with their own self-serving agenda in mind. The words they use, the hand gestures, the exercises ... It's a joke honestly. Sometimes it's so obvious it's ridiculous. Most of what they "teach" is largely a projection of what they are doing to their students and I think in part it's a big game to them. THEY are suppressive, manipulative and controlling.

Recruitment is in part by word of mouth, but it's largely intentional and deliberate and a huge part of how they measure your 'success' as a student, or it was at one time, and your level of persistence. That's how they make their money - recruitment.

The manipulation and gamesmanshp begin from day one. They want you to come up to the front of the room, in front of the entire group of maybe 20-40 people and introduce yourself and tell them why you are there. If you say no, you may be labeled "defiant", right in front of the entire group. Then Nancy later says being defiant is absolutely one of the most destructive character traits you can have. Whaaat?? Maybe it's a survival mechanism and your intuition telling you something is very wrong ... maybe it can be a very good thing.

It's the - get them to say yes to the many little things along the way - conform - and eventually you won't even question the bigger requests. It got more and more and more ridiculous. The "Honor Dollar" - they wanted you to not only pay the exorbitant fees but pay for the privilege of just being in the building - because ... as Nancy said one night .. we need to pay the rent. There were boxes placed around the Karner Rd. center so you could empty your wallet of all those pesky dollar bills. A rope chain was set up so that if you didn't want to participate in this foolishness, you were not to pass through to the other side, where all the social activity was going on.

Questioners are silenced. Everything you see going on is your issue, your responsibility, they take none whatsoever. They tie you up in knots, double bind you right from the beginning, so you think twice about everything that comes out of your mouth. It's your issues that are coming up. It's not about them.

At one forum I attended, Keith said the most "damaged" people are the ones who take notes. Oh, well I certainly don't want to be considered one of the damaged ones, so I'd better stop taking notes.

Everyone signs up for different reasons. It was largedly billed as a way to become more successfull as a business person. Work with the emotional issues that are blocking you from breaking through to another level. It made sense to me at the time. What is the one thing in your life that you would like to change or make better? And what if this could do that for you? But no information on how it is done is given, none at all. I can't tell you, you have to experience it for yourself. Typical cult crap.

I will tell you that if you can sell this to someone, you can sell absolutely anything. They make it impossible. Try to convince someone to pay a ridiculous amount of money but be totally limited in the amount of information you can give them. Then have them sign a non-disclosure agreement which states they can use the information you provide during the courses/intensives in any way they want but you are not to talk about what goes on with anyone outside the organization. Can't believe I bought into it myself.

I deeply regret ever having thought this could have any merit.

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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: bigskeptic ()
Date: March 21, 2010 11:31PM

I won't appologize for having an opinion. It is difficult to convey feelings when you are simply writing, and not talking to someone face to face. So, you will have to take me at my word that I do have compassion for anyone affected by NXIVM, even the ones who don't know yet that they have issues.

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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: Christa ()
Date: March 22, 2010 07:17AM

I won't appologize for having an opinion. It is difficult to convey feelings when you are simply writing, and not talking to someone face to face. So, you will have to take me at my word that I do have compassion for anyone affected by NXIVM, even the ones who don't know yet that they have issues.

I’m not asking you to apologize for having an opinion. I'm saying:

1. your opinions are ill-informed, platitudinous, and trite.
2. some of your comments aren't opinions at all, but self-aggrandizing judgments and harmful stereotypes.

First, suggesting people research groups that are trying to recruit them is like suggesting people who wish to avoid headcolds wash their hands.

Everyone knows that, pretty much everyone does it, and you know what? People still get colds. Because handwashing alone is not enough to completely prevent the spread of cold viruses.

It's great to get reminders about the basics, but there’s no reason for you to repeatedly tout them as if they're major insights or even particularly helpful to the subset of people who most need help. They're not, and I'm surprised that someone who claims to have read extensively on this topic thinks they are.

Second, your condescension toward people Raniere has victimized is very troubling.

1.This comment is not opinion. It is ego massage:

"It was bullshit then and I saw right through it. These incredibly smart, professional people came back like zombies, convinced of the improbable! What I am trying to say is this- I never got there!!"

Good for you. Congratulations on never getting there, and on being more astute than "incredible smart, professional people". But your comment offers no insight and helps no one. Except maybe you.

2.This comment is a combination of shopworn advice and self-praise:

"I am simply trying to put out there, for the next victim, that you must think
for yourself, not listen to your friend or relative, and do a thorough investigation before jumping into something so damaging. Do what I did and trust your gut instincts."

Most people’s mommies told them to think for themselves; they don’t need to hear it from you. And as for doing what you did and trusting gut instincts, well, telling people to trust their gut instincts is good advice.

Telling vulnerable people to trust their gut instincts is useless advice. It’s like telling a man with a broken leg to run away from a mugger, because people who wind up in cults always have a vulnerability that causes them to override their gut instincts. They can't run away.

3.This comment is not an opinion. It is your judgment of the people you feel superior to:

“These people taking the classes are educated professionals and they sat through a seminar on how to greet people and shake hands without laughing or shaking their heads? How is it that people can so blindly be lead? It is beyond ridiculous."

It is not beyond ridiculous that an experienced manipulator can get educated professionals to do bizzare things. The people you saw were not being blindly led, they were being mind controlled. There’s a difference.

4. The comment below is not opinion. It is your uninformed verdict on people who wind up in cults.

"In my opinion, the ones who chose to become involved did so because their personality enabled them to be snowed or they had alot of time and money on their hands."

Your opinion is wrong. Posters upthread have responded to your obvious lack of knowledge by giving you links to all sorts of resources; yet your ignorance persists.

NO ONE CHOOSES TO JOIN A CULT. Leaders have have deceived and manipulated members, 100% of the time. Issues of personality type are IRRELEVANT.

You’re actually in a situation where research will help, so perhaps it’s time to take your own advice and, to quote you, “get on the internet and read and learn”.

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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: Macumazahn ()
Date: March 22, 2010 07:27AM

   enufalready, thank you for coming here and sharing this information with us! I really appreciate that!

   First, a couple of thoughts on what you’ve reported.

   The point about the entire ESP Training Materials being available on public record is a by-product of applying for a patent; Raniere even accepts ‘facsimile (or) reproduction by anyone of the patent disclosure’ (patent application for Rational Inquiry™ (1999) on public record at WIPO, page 10).

   However, it raises an additional question about the Non-Disclosure Agreements. If the copyrighted materials plus a detailed if somewhat confounding description of the methods are publicly accessible after all, how nefarious and mal-intent must the organisations training methods be, if they insist on secrecy nevertheless? Especially considering that every single one of their methods and ideas are long known, often published, commonly available in many fields – and frequently long-time refuted. The only reason to have an NDA in this case is to distance the espians from their old associations (friends, family, etc.) and limit their critical thinking capacities, their access to diversified knowledge; which is the ultimate ‘destruction of value’ even by their own definitions, let alone by any other scientific standards. Conversely in many ways, that scientific method is what in fact espians are being taught to apply to everything: Only if you can measure things are you critically thinking; otherwise, you’re non-thinking (see their critical thinking in various posts on the rarb thread (chronologically): Clare Bronfman, Lauren Salzman, Mark Vicente, Keith Raniere, etc., onwards and some repeatedly). The coaches are instructed not to lead the students; they are supposed to teach them how to think, not what to think (ESP Training Materials contained in aforementioned patent application, first time in ‘Honesty and Disclosure’ on pg 73, ‘1. Allow students to…’, and thereafter repeatedly)!

   On the monetary side, this is a game to them. Yet I think in many other ways, the program and its modules are also a representation of their own limitations, Raniere’s foremost. On a different forum, I’ve posted a logical chain of observations on his personality and by the example of ‘desire’ on how this affects his teachings in my opinion.

   The labelling as ‘defiant’, ‘damaged’ and the scenario with the ‘Honor Dollar’ all are designed to generate a feeling of guilt, shame, and subsequently a lack of confidence. These newly created insecurities they can then address as ‘disintegrations’ that have been keeping you from reaching your goals all your life. (A prime example of that can be found in the ‘Persistence’ module, pg 91, 3rd paragraph, about the abysmal track record.) Thus, confusion and more shame is built, which leaves the participant woefully unprotected against the lovingly given advice, help and oh-so masterfully tailored and countless times verified solutions. How can you possibly doubt such generous and insightful people? It’s one of the oldest techniques in the book. You can find them in pretty much any oratory throughout history, from Cicero to Seneca; even Mark Anthony in Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar uses shame and guilt to drive the conspirators out of Rome and thus into the conscious of the plebs, who promptly empower him to go after those ‘honourable men’.

   Reading the ESP Training Materials, one can actually prove that the whole thing is but an MLM/ponzi scheme. All the communications modules are in essence widely-known sales strategies. (Here’s a site that contains many examples of such techniques; sometimes different words, but clearly recognisable and comparable; see especially sections on objection-handling and closing. Now compare this to the 'Scripting' module, particularly the 3 points under '1. The formula. ...'.) They are being taught how to ‘pace’, ‘lead’ (‘Building Rapport’); create enthusiasm, desire and motivation in themselves and by projection in the target (‘Building an Excited State’ and ‘Building Desire and Motivation’); how to modulate their intensity at will (‘Intensity’); etc.; all disguised as things that should help them in their lives; yet rarely justified by the situation and their actual involvement therein, or the naturally occurring emotions within them. In the end, these methods are barely applicable in most people’s circumstances, in no way ethical or fair, and solely designed to enhance the recruitment capacities of the members. Raniere seems to be the proverbial old dog; the only difference to his previous schemes is that this time, he does not sell a traceable physical product, but a vaguely defined set of ideas.

   I have a couple of questions though; and they are directed as much at you as at any others who have had or are having direct experiences in NIXVM/ESP (and WEFC/JNESS). Depending on how long, how deep and at what time somebody was in there, this information might vary and in such diversity give us a bigger picture of the developments within NXIVM and their deeper meanings to and for the espians as well. Please be as vague as ultimately necessary to protect your identity.

- As to the documents included in the patent application: How much have they changed since 1999? Have there been any modules added? Are there significant changes in the message, content, methodology, etc.? Or are they in essence still the same? It would fit Raniere’s profile if he considered his original ‘invention’ so brilliant that only little changes and enhancements were necessary over the years. Another point of course would be that too many changes would tell the espians that the method they originally learnt was not foolproof or fully developed – a doubt hardly in the interests of NXIVM. On the other hand, he might have refined the techniques and their applications with his growing experience.

- How far do the videos or the training (especially, if the founders do it personally) differ from what is in the ESP Training Materials? Do they enhance and/or alter the information? How much is left out from the official documents? This might in fact be a legal point, as such differences would imply a conscious deceit and fraud, since the ™ and ‘patent pending’ terms are clearly and dominantly used as a marketing strategy to quell recruits’ doubts; the application has not been amended, renewed or in any other sense been continued since it was filed more than ten years ago, so it stands to reason that such misleading use is in reality unfair and highly unethical. (ESP and ESP on NXIVM page). Maybe even the patent application itself could be viewed under such critical light: Does he actually have the right to describe something as ‘patent-pending’ when the so-called pending patent (rejected at least at WIPO) is not in fact a truthful representation of either the current state of the method or its full extent and implications? (Again, this ties into the legal framework I posted on earlier.) Was it actually ever accepted in the US?

- How are ‘numbers and exploration of meaning’ (EM) actually applied? What does EM consist of? There are but some vague and befuddling references in the patent application; which probably is quite the intended effect of the method to start with; but doesn’t help us as an argument or in the understanding of the effects of EM on the people we care about. (patent description, pg 20, ‘Therapy by number or exploration of meaning or EM …’)

- Does NXIVM have any additional, specific materials or teachings that are not contained in ESP? Or is it simply the umbrella and vessel for espians, who have already taken all the modules. What are the unstated missions and goals of NXIVM?

- Do they target potential recruits specifically? You mentioned a deliberate recruiting. Does that mean that they will come after somebody even in order to get to their more influential associations? Do they stipulate how much ESP would help your famous girlfriend? Do they offer to help your husband’s political success?

   A last point would be confirmation. Please don’t misunderstand me. I don’t mean to doubt your report; it is all too clearly in line with what we know so far! But in order to give weight to arguments and knowledge, the scientific method is indeed the best approach: collect as much information as you can; make sure you can confirm it as often as possible; and then correlate it with even more data. It would do so even more, since ‘Data, like scientific criteria, is measurable …’ in the eyes of espians and thus would give our communication more meaning and depth (Rational Inquiry™ patent application, pg 39).

   So, if you or anybody else reading this have additional information, know people who might be willing to share such data under the anonymity of an alias as you have, or maybe even have materials that cannot be connected to you personally – well, it would be much appreciated. Again, this is neither to doubt you nor put you under any pressure nor anything else. If such inside information would be made available, future recruitment could be hampered by the proliferation of it; and eventually we might even be able to reach some of those that are still enthralled within the organisation.

   I don’t mean to squeeze you like a lemon, but in order to understand and be able to put ourselves into the espian’s place, to be capable of comprehending not just their terminology and philosophies but their feelings and new thinking as well, in essence to help those we care about, we need as much of such insight as we can get.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2010 07:56AM by Macumazahn.

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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: Macumazahn ()
Date: March 22, 2010 07:12PM

Sorry, about the double long post…

The effect of shame and guilt techniques

enufalready mentioned how questioners are silenced, everything is your issue/fault and how that leads to keeping constant vigilance on what you say. Again, this ties in with the shame and guilt technique. I’ve been writing a lot about how we should try to understand not just factually what is happening to those inside, but also on an emotional level; how we should put ourselves in their shoes, so to speak. Well, let’s give this a try by describing how I felt under those circumstances of shame and guilt. I will refer to a leader or he/him as both the person in my life and Raniere are males, but it could just as well be a female. As I’ve said, in my case it was not an organisation such as NXIVM, but a very small different kind of intimate group that was controlled by a man with a personality alike to Raniere’s though; so the experience may be personal, but I think with variations in degree, scope and range, probably quite representative.

There are a couple of examples of situations that would be addressed with the shame and guilt method in enufalready’s post. And it probably starts softly the first moment you set foot into the session space: you have to take off your shoes, which might make you feel uncomfortable; you feel silly while learning how to shake hands; feel intimidated or a bit overwhelmed by the glory that is ‘Vanguard’, the tribute and bowing, the hierarchies; etc… To add just a few of my own, one could cite being given tasks that are neither clearly defined nor fully accomplishable (predestination to find fault); expectations that are illogical or simply not communicated (pre-programmed disappointment); or teachings that are simply inapplicable to my circumstances or utterly against the grain of my personality (preordained failure). All of these and many more will lead to a feeling of shame and guilt in two ways simultaneously.

At this point, it doesn’t matter how, why or when you’ve become involved with the group. All you care about is to do right by the only measure left to you, your group’s leader. But how can you when the conditions set on everything that you do in the group, accomplishments which would provide you with the recognition, even the bare notice, you so desperately seek from the leader, are essentially impossible to meet? Inevitably, this leads to the first applications of shame and guilt: The obvious disappointment, kind help offered, a reprimand, a dire prediction, or punishment, all meted out by the leader or the higher members often in various constellations. And you can’t argue against any of these, for that would be only a further failure on your part, a compounding of your weaknesses, and a continued and increasing source of shame and guilt. Remember, you’re always at fault; have to be, for you are the one who has not yet completely understood. You never win these arguments in any case; not against this type of person; I’ve tried!

Disillusionment can be displayed as subtly as with a deep sigh, an ostensibly benevolent remark (‘Well, everybody forgets something occasionally!’), or a simple apparently well-intended advice (‘Look, to do this properly, you have to…’); these make you feel stupid and childish, inadequate and an utter disappointment to the leader (and by extension the group). Help is offered to amend the errors of your ways; it’s always logical and thus must be true, following the lines of ‘Let’s look at why you did that.’, ‘I can see where you went wrong. You know, to avoid this in the future, you have to…’, or ‘Why haven’t you come to me in the first place? I’m always there to help you, remember?’

Less subtle but no less insidious are reprimands, ranging from ‘That wasn’t very smart!’ to ‘How often do I have to tell you?’ and beyond. Predictions can be as apparently harmless as ‘Well, if you continue this you’ll be only disappointing yourself!’ or as dire and fateful as ‘With this attitude you’ll surely end up in prison – or dead!’ And punishments can be administered in oh-so many cruelly logical, abstractly comprehensible and always completely justified ways, can’t they? Denial of something (food, sleep, etc.), withdrawal of another (love, social contact, etc.) are but the beginning of the list. It can end in ritualistic beatings that are designed not just to hurt physically (actually that feels like the lesser evil) but to degrade you mentally.

All these responses in a way are designed to show you what little influence on your life you have without the leader’s benevolence; how insignificant you are as compared to this person; and how you are destined to fail in everything, even die if you should ever leave. The message is just not quite as clear when you’re in there but well disguised in their good intentions: They are after all only teaching you something, aren’t they? The application of the list depends on the group size and its internal ties, on how easily you can actually walk out or not. In an organisation such as NXIVM, punishments and the like will be subtle and insidious (‘endangering your personal integrity’, ‘failing in your commitment to persistence’, ‘becoming a suppressive’, ‘defiant’, damaged’, ‘destroying value’, being denied access to social activities, etc.); if they actually started beating the espians, it wouldn’t be long before they’d be all alone in their session spaces. (In my case, I was even legally bound to my leader, so no escape there.)

The second way shame and guilt are applied is far more devastating, debilitating and to somebody who never experienced this sort of thing often completely incomprehensible: You apply it to yourself! And you don’t have a choice in the matter, often don’t even realise what you’re doing; the only thing you know is that you’ve done wrong and now deserve to suffer! I mean, haven’t you failed in your promise? The leader had such high expectations of you based on that promise. Haven’t you endangered your future by your careless behaviour? The leader knows so. And haven’t you most of all endangered the trust, love and dedication the leader invests in you? What if he stopped and you were left all alone without his guidance? What if you even endangered him in your stupidity, with your callous and mindless mistake, imperilled his standing, his dignity – maybe even his life, liberty and happiness? You could loose him for good!

These are not rational reactions, not on first sight. Yet you have been surrounded by your leader (and by extension the group), his teachings, his personality, and his ostensible kindness and occasional well-intended sternness. He has become the focal point in your life, ‘The measure of all things’! (The quote is from my tormentor’s diary, ‘I am the measure of all things!’) There are mechanisms operating inside yourself that you are not aware of, at least not consciously and certainly not at the time. Subconsciously, your old personality resists, which only makes the whole shame and guilt situation worse: So how do you feel inside, how does shame and guilt based on non-rational reactions and undeserved rejection show themselves? How does a person that is forced to live with both an alien, controlled, conscious personality and a truthful, individual, subconscious one react to this internally?

You know with all your mind, heart and body that you’ve done wrong! And at the same time, you feel as though you can’t have done too badly! Didn’t you do as told? Yet that would mean that the leader is wrong! How can that gracious, kind and so much more intelligent person be wrong? Isn’t it arrogant and self-deluded to assume that you could ever match him? Understand his deep ways of knowledge and wisdom? You have to love him, for he loves you, or he would never invest such energy in teaching you, in showing you the right way to do things! Yet you hate him with all your heart for the injustice you feel inside, for the helplessness and for the hopelessness this creates within! And you hate yourself for this base emotion, the treacherous fallibility of your heart, the uncouth weakness of your mind that even dares to think badly of the leader! You are supposed to admire him, you have a desperate urge to love him, can’t imagine a life without that glorious person being the guide and teacher he is! And you can’t see a reason why to love yourself, why to need that thing inside you that tries to draw you backwards, tries to keep you from fulfilling your promise, tries to make you fail your leader! Yet you hate your dependence, so why would you want to do right by and to him? And why would you not?

It is utter turmoil, confusion, abhorrence, love, self-hatred, admiration, rage against the injustice, anger at the rage, debasing shame, need to love, loathing of love, revulsion at yourself, tearing, wrenching, desire to care, hopelessness, urges to defend, yearning to end, helplessness, wish to escape, incomprehension, loss, self-defacing, and need to remain in the leader's safety – all of these and many more all rolled into a single experience, alternating at moment’s intervals in the most irrational patterns. It is utterly debilitating impotence, dysfunction of the mind, absence of clear thought, conflict of conscious and subconscious, and non-existence of coherent self. An emptiness fills you that threatens to overwhelm and suffocate. You’re at the verge of screaming, running in circles, and committing murder in one way or the other. You blush and blanch, feel faint and flushed with energy at the same time, are about to vomit and to disassemble completely, to bring even more shame and guilt unto you, even as you already do at the mere thought. The worst thing though is that you do not actually experience all this consciously, but that most of it happens in your subconscious and only a feeling of indefinable despair and confusion reaches your awareness; only with time and often years later will you be able to piece together what in reality happened.

The only way not to go finally mental is to suppress the one part that has been shown to you as the base emotions of lesser humans; to smother those elements that are so intangible as compared to the clear path of truth; to stifle that obnoxious personality, which has held you back so long with its dysfunctional needs, desires, fears, insecurities, doubts, and many more such imprinted weaknesses. So, once more, and again, and yet another time you bury your true personality, the character that is not streamlined and therefore has to be at fault, has to be weak in its chaos and immeasurable confusion. For how could such an individuality ever be worth anything if it just confuses and makes life so much more difficult all the time? The leader has to be right: He does live by example, exists by a clear and determinable standard, follows the path of truth and intellect, not some fuzzy, worthless nothing.

Besides doing right by the leader, the avoidance of this turmoil becomes the focus in your life, the driving force behind every one of your actions. You start lying to protect yourself, lying to everybody and most of all to yourself. But to the leader this doesn’t matter, for he will always find a way to induce shame and guilt, especially so if he detects you at a lie. You question your every action, control your every emotion, and guard your every word, towards everybody, including the leader and often yourself. And with this drive and calculation, you’ve become the perfect tool in the leader’s hands: You’ll do anything he tells you, trust him blindly and just avoid feeling this turmoil again; and since only he can show the safe path now, why should you not follow it?

Soon in the outside world you feel in control, invincible, nobody will catch you, nothing surprises you, and nothing can hurt you anymore, for you won’t let it get to you. And in the group too, you can stand your ground against the others, show up their weaknesses, control them if need be and ever more so. Especially within the group, you keep up constant vigilance, as only they know your weaknesses, could detect your flaws, and would be able to use them against you; after all, you too are already using your knowledge against them, aren’t you? While your life depends on them, is centred on this exclusive group, your capacity to trust has deteriorated even towards them. It is but the leader who still holds the key to you; yet then again, he is the only one that counts, truly counts anyway, the one that you rely on to guide you, to teach you and to care for you. And even if he continues to shame you, to make you feel guilty, the confusion feels ever less like an actual suffering; you’ve become blunted to the inner turmoil, removed from the battlefield of your personalities, are dead inside and living in mostly unperceived desolation! Now shame and guilt trigger an almost instinctual response, an unthinking compliance with whatever is requested.

How could this happen? What has happened?
To use NXIVM terminology, elements of the original personality by and by and one by one have been declared ‘disintegrations’ and in consequence have been suppressed, buried deep in the subconscious, replaced by ready-tailored, shoddily adapted ‘integrations’. The conscious has been overtaken by these ‘integrations’, while in the subconscious the so-called ‘disintegrations’ still live on, for the truthful personality cannot be erased. This produces an internal conflict that will rage until the ‘integrations’ have been thoroughly modified, personalised and in a sense dis-integrated. While the appeal of clear and straightforward matrices is often evident, our minds simply are not designed to run solely under a mathematically linear system. Half the functions of the mind, especially the personality and emotional parts, depend on a certain inherent chaos; they actually operate in organically complex and naturally occurring patterns that are simply not abstractable.

In extreme cases the introduction of such mathematically definable abstract ‘integrations’ can lead to a situation, where the incomplete ‘integration’ (and mind you, it is intrinsically impossible ever to complete this process) has fully or at least to a large extent suppressed the comprehensive original personality. In these cases, when the conscious ‘integrated’ personality isn’t demanded by the circumstances, the person practically shuts down and seems absent and extremely lethargic to an observer. What happens on the inside is another case, for to suppress the natural personality takes a constant effort at a devastating toll; a distraction gleefully nurtured and shamelessly utilised by the leader (and by extension the group) for his own purposes and to further the person's dependence on him.

In a certain sense, this is the level of factual, emotional and circumstantial understanding we should ideally try to achieve in order to be able better to connect with those whom we care about – and eventually to help them. In my personal experience, when somebody came with some standard arguments or even disbelieve, I shut down myself and withdrew into my personal bubble. I needed to suppress any reaction to such treatment just to avoid the debilitating turmoil again, to protect myself from feeling shame and guilt at yet another’s hands.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2010 07:42PM by Macumazahn.

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Posted by: Monitor NXIVM ()
Date: March 22, 2010 10:13PM

Let's all start asking the New York Attorney General to pop this pimple, Vanguard. Register your comments at: []

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Posted by: enufalready ()
Date: March 22, 2010 11:10PM

Monitor ~ very good idea. It would be better if it could be done anonymously. I don't need to be harassed or sued or whatever their silencing technique of the day is.

Macumazahn ~ you make good points. I can't respond right now to some of your questions but will get back to it.

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Re: NXIVM and the Dalai Lama
Posted by: enufalready ()
Date: March 22, 2010 11:12PM

Well said and I have to say that I agree with you Christa.

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