There is no denying that personality and circumstances can and often do have an influence as to whether a person is recruitable or not. But more importantly, the availability of such an organisation in their lives, maybe someone close already in it, manner of disguise of or entry-point into the organisation, the group’s interest in you, etc. all play a part and with these, chances are high that they are indeed recruited. (Good list by the way, PinkUnicorn.)

   By the time, they are in there, their personality and circumstances in one way or another will have taken injury, will have been altered, whether they started out with such particular susceptibilities or not; thus, at that point the argument of personality and circumstances becomes mute. If you want to help somebody overcome all the obstacles put in their way by an organisation such as NXIVM and subsequently themselves, if you want to help them leave and find their own path again, it makes sense that you should try not to put some more deterrents, more obstacles in their course.

   If you’re under pressure such as a group like this exudes, you may not be aware of it consciously; but deep down in your subconscious, buried beneath tons of debris and ideological waste, that awareness is still alive. It is being suppressed by such teachings as that fear, insecurities and above all doubts about the organisation are weaknesses, will lead to the loss of ‘personal integrity’ and may make you falter in your ‘commitment to persistence’.

   But it is not only that! You are in a constant struggle with your true self, which is still very much alive in your subconscious: at all times fighting to suppress that truthful personality from rearing its head; from revolting against the occupying mental forces; from rising against the alien thoughts governing your consciousness. If you allowed that to happen, you’d be devastated. Every time this conflict enters your conscious mind even but a little, you feel the void inside you; see the wasteland of your mental existence in the stark contrast to who you truly are; realise that you live in desolation!

   It terrifies, confuses, drives you to tears and rage, makes you hate yourself and everything in, around and about your life, fills you with despair, makes you scream inside in pain and frustration, drives utter panic in your very essence – and makes you tremble at the thought of ever having to live with these emotions free to roam your unoccupied conscious self; even while you know that to be truly free, to have your truthful personality restored to its rightful place is what you want more than anything else, what you need to accomplish to survive. This is a subconscious emotional turmoil you cannot allow to surface, you have to restrain and suppress again whenever it penetrates the conscious: for it would destroy you, would drive you mad!

   If an outsider, somebody who tries to help, has even the slightest conviction that the member has a personality that was partly responsible for their being drawn into the organisation, this will be felt by the person they want to help; it’s an unavoidable part of human communications that we convey more than we actually mean to. At this point, the member’s personality is altered in any case, so this conviction is a self-fulfilling fact in any case. Now imagine yourself in the member’s shoes, confused, insecure, filled with all that turmoil I mentioned. What do you think even the smallest hint of such a conviction will do? And it doesn’t matter whether the conviction is conscious or not at present in the helper’s mind. Since the member will see their worst fears confirmed, they will be driven into a spiralling mental spin. At this point in their lives the only thing they are still familiar with, that could give them at least a semblance of stability, are the teachings and structures of the organisation. So they will flee to that, even if deep down they know it is the wrong direction; it is the only way they can see for them to stay sane.

   That is why we have to overcome our pre-conceptions, have to shed our convictions, even if they may be correct and justified. It is the reason we have to learn of their environment, understand their ideas, use our imagination to put ourselves into their situation, try to see and comprehend the powers that work on them. As much as it hurts us, without that effort we cannot expect to reach the persons we want to help, cannot expect them to stay and listen, cannot help them in the end; we have to reach them halfway and often beyond. Or otherwise, we simply push them away and deeper into the arms of the organisation.

This thread is drifting perilously close to victim blaming. Rather than theorize about who gets lured into cults and why, perhaps take a look at the extensive research on this topic?

[www.culteducation.com]

Pinkunicorn, if the ramifications of your "small set of reasons" weren't so sobering, I'd have busted a gut laughing. Surely you realize that a small set of reasons does not equal a small set of human beings. Every single one of your reasons applies to every single person alive at some point in the lifecycle.

It is the human condition to have vulnerable periods and strong periods. That's life. Today's solid marriage and happy kids are tomorrow's vicious divorce and drug-addicted teen-agers. Today's committed Catholics are tomorrow's SNAP members. Today's valued employee is tomorrow's unemployment statistic. And so on.

There is a little too much self-congratulation occurring on the part of some posters in this thread. You are kidding yourselves. Anyone, absolutely anyone, can be conned by someone, somewhere.

My intent wasn't to blame the victim, only what, or the points in people's lives, that made them more susceptible to such organizations, or how they were lured into them. In fact, In a previous post in this very thread I said the following:

Quote

I know some people who are part of this group. I'm disappointed that they didn't trust their gut enough to see through all of the justified negativity surrounding it. But, everyone has been fooled in their life before, sometimes, multiple times.

I'm quite aware of a LGAT's propensity to say there are no victims, and that an individual is fully responsible for whatever happens to them, which is total cow dung.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 07:34AM by pinkunicorn.

To whom it may concern:

Almost anyone can be lured into a "cult."

It's really often just a question of timing and trust.

Someone is going through a difficult time and a friend they trust and/or respect approaches them about a group.

Many people are brought in this way.

"Brainwashing" is frequently a subtle slow process, it comes on gradually, so as not to scare off the mark/victim.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The best protection against "cults" is to understand how they work, i.e. breaking down their manipulative techniques.

Once you know their game it isn't so easy to be manipulated.

A cult leader is really little more than a "con man" who keeps conning the same people as long as he or she can.

Since I was the one who started the victim blaming, let me appologize for that. I guess I am blaming the victims to a degree. I don't really understand how a person can become involved in something like this. These are not POW's, captured and held against their will for the 1st "module". They are willing participants... some who have read about the group on the internet and seen the information that is not very favorable. I can somewhat understand the initial joiners, who had no idea of what was going to happen to them. The new recruits are jumping in and throwing caution to the wind when they have an inkling it could be harmful to them. It's like walking out in front of a moving car... it might stop in time or it might hit you! But, my sympathies to these people and their families are sincere and I am hopeful the group will become less populated over time, thanks to the few brave ex members who have spoken out.

Quote
bigskeptic
Since I was the one who started the victim blaming, let me appologize for that. I guess I am blaming the victims to a degree. I don't really understand how a person can become involved in something like this. These are not POW's, captured and held against their will for the 1st "module". They are willing participants... some who have read about the group on the internet and seen the information that is not very favorable. I can somewhat understand the initial joiners, who had no idea of what was going to happen to them. The new recruits are jumping in and throwing caution to the wind when they have an inkling it could be harmful to them. It's like walking out in front of a moving car... it might stop in time or it might hit you! But, my sympathies to these people and their families are sincere and I am hopeful the group will become less populated over time, thanks to the few brave ex members who have spoken out.

No one, ever, is a willing participant in mind control or thought-reform. EVER. The fact that cult members are not physically encaged is irrelevant, because cults do not exist in physical space. Cults exist in the mind, and it's people's minds, not their bodies, that are held captive.

There are innumerable resources on this site that explain everything about how mind control works; why not take advantage of them? Learning about mind control also has the benefit of making you resistant to the techniques; once you see how the techniques work, they can't work on you.

In addition to Rick Ross's extensive "Mind Control" section, I suggest you review the Anticult's posts, especially in the big Byron Katie thread and the James Ray thread. He's really great at breaking down specific techniques, and much of what he knows isn't in any book.

   If my style of posts did give raise to that argument, then I am sorry; it was in no way my intention!

   All I’m trying to do is to find a path to reach those we care about; to be able to hold out our hand to them; to strengthen that true self buried so deep to actual independence again; and to pull them out when ready. It is the course of tolerance, open-mindedness, understanding and compassion; the approach of engagement rather than force, at first confirming the true good in them more than confronting the foreign controls, building a confidence in themselves and the world outside again, offering them diversified knowledge that shows there are many more and other ways to reach what they want, creating a bridge so to speak for them to cross.

   Why do I formulate my posts in this particular style? (Besides this maybe just being a bit me…)

   Well, we may know and understand (mostly on an abstract level) what all the terms of thought reform mean; we comprehend their implications; and we see from the outside how they technically operate on those under their influence. Yet do we truly appreciate how they’re used, how they function, how they feel, and what the experience is like when they actually alter your perceptions and thus your personality? Do we sense the confusion, the bliss, the despair, the fulfilment they generate when applied on someone? Aren’t these terms merely approximations to the actual experiences?

   Intervention specialists, psychologists or other professionals by their practice, through countless examples and long discussions can fill these terms with the appropriate content, convey their meaning and correspond to those enthralled in such an organisation; and thus often succeed in breaking them loose in a concentrated effort. We others, we may not be able to intervene in such a direct manner. Yet we too can and must be an integral part of the process; we want to be a part of it; and in many ways, we have to be a part for the benefit of the ones we care about.

   So, how can we be that part, how can we communicate with them? By talking not just on an abstract informative level but with an emotionally comprehensible content. To be able to do so, we not only have to inform ourselves about the facts of the organisation, the terms and the techniques of thought reform as applied in it. We also have to share and discuss experiences both factual as well as in terms of feelings and responses, both from an inside and an outside perspective; not just in relation to NXIVM, but to any comparable sources. And we need to personalise all this to both us and the ones we want to help, individualise the experiences with our imagination for ourselves, with our heart and with our knowledge of the members in order to understand them, to be able to envision their feelings and experiences in the group; and then we need to apply this to each specific situation, adapting it constantly.

   Chances are that espians do not know the typical thought reform terms, certainly not in their true meaning. Nowhere in the ESP Training Materials are they mentioned outright (so far; am not quite done with the in-depth analysis yet). The word ‘cult’ is pre-emptively mis-defined, (leading to an interesting paradox with other terms and their uses such as ‘suppressives’,) but otherwise you will be hard pressed to find any of the expressions used in this forum; it’s a bit alike to two different countries, the one trying to communicate with the other, both using their own distinct language that is incomprehensible to the other. Then again, it is a safe bet that measures have been put in place to counter them in some other place or form. To them these terms are not only meaningless, but actually ‘integrated’ as triggers into their mind. So, using these terms occasionally, not in the concentrated effort of an intervention so to speak, will have little effect other than to repel the member.

   But, it is not quite so easy to pre-empt individual emotions, personal pictures and experiences that actually fill expressions such as ‘milieu control’. How can Raniere protect his espians against something so intangible, immeasurable and impossible to formulate mathematically? How can they do that other than simply to demonise every close outsider, without being able to plant triggers for specific situations, without any explanations why the members should think that? So far these have always been given in some way; but in this case, providing examples of arguments they might be confronted with would in fact point directly to experiences the espians themselves made at ESP/NXIVM, thus actually confirming the to be demonised arguments! And any direct attacks on family members and friends who do not ‘destroy value’ or are not ‘parasitic’, etc. may be hard to maintain even in NXIVM; the espians are after all still human and even if their old personality and emotional associations are buried deep in the subconscious, they are still there! The member might just be confused, shocked and filled with doubt about such an attack, such a claim; not something Raniere wants in his members, for it would distance them a tad from his control.

   This all is part of the learning process I mentioned earlier, part of the understanding and putting ourselves into their place as far as we safely can. (We have to be careful not to fall under the spell as well…) Sometimes, to others we may sound as though a member of some such group ourselves, but that is a sacrifice we should be willing to make for those we want to help. (I recently sent an e-Mail to somebody, giving an example of some arguments for a communication with espians about possible meanings of reality. There were some phrases used that were meant to inspire thought processes, but could be mistaken as solipsism by somebody who’s been reading a lot on this forum. Little wonder there was no response so far. The person probably thinks I'm some crazy guru or follower of such …)

   With this filling our own language, of our communication with not only logical content but emotional and individual as well, we may be able to keep the lifeline active, to keep a breath of fresh air and outside variety flowing, to show them truthfully that we are not out to get them, out to destroy their values or suppress their happiness, but to be with them and maybe help them discover a truly independent, individual and practicable path to their goals. And thus, any further aid measures such as potential interventions may meet fruitful ground and are substantiated and founded on at least an already existent basis of communication.

   To convey truthfully the mental pictures, individual thoughts and elusive emotions of my experiences and the resulting thinking, I write such detailed posts, hoping that maybe they may help somebody a little.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 06:34PM by Macumazahn.

Ten years ago when I was being pressured to attend the classes, the first thing I did was start to research Keith Raniere on the internet. There wasn't much information, but there were articles on Consumers Buyline along with mention of his genious IQ. I thought he was a conman, had no interest in learning anything from the guy and watched as person after person went to the classes and returned with the knowledge that Vanguard had been essentially screwed by the government. He was so smart and the government didn't understand him or his genious or his way of doing business. It was bullshit then and I saw right through it. These incredibly smart, professional people came back like zombies, convinced of the improbable! What I am trying to say is this- I never got there!!

I have read extensively about mind control on this website and others and I am not being critical of the people who have been sucked into the cult we discuss here and others... I am trying to understand how in this day and age, with so much information available about NXIVM there are people who don't put more thought into getting involved to begin with. A friend suggests taking a class and maybe you are having a rough time and it sounds like it would help you to reach a certain level of success... fine. But, if you are going to spend thousands of dollars on anything, most folks do research. You get on the internet and you read and learn and evaluate before making any big purchases, don't you? This is what I mean when I mention people's personality and vulnerability play into their involvment... they have to be ripe for the picking to get involved.

I am in no way being critical of the countless victims already so far in they need intervention. I am simply trying to put out there, for the next victim, that you must think for yourself, not listen to your friend or relative, and do a thorough investigation before jumping into something so damaging. Do what I did and trust your gut instincts.

@Macumazahn

Well, some people in Australia are trying:

Quote

Cults should be given nowhere to hide
MICHAEL BACHELARD
March 21, 2010

Despite criminal investigations, these groups continue unfettered.

THE recent evidence of the psychological harm caused by religious cults could not be more graphic.

On ABC TV's Four Corners, Liz and James Anderson told how their indoctrination in Scientology saw them part with hundreds of thousands of dollars buying the outpourings of guru L. Ron Hubbard. Eventually they also lost one of their daughters, signing guardianship to a Scientologist slave labour camp called Sea Org.

Today Tonight then revealed how a NSW-based Exclusive Brethren doctor, Mark Craddock, had chemically castrated a young man to suppress his sex drive because he was gay. When Today Tonight dared to film him with victim Craig Hoyle outside the Brethren headquarters, they were pursued around Sydney by cars full of young thugs who are facing criminal charges.

[www.theage.com.au]

   And fresh off the press at that!

   We all have inalienable rights. Locke put them as the right to ‘life, liberty and property’ in the state of nature, and Jefferson changed that to ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’. In the US Constitution and subsequently in most such documents in the ‘western’ world, additional rights were granted and together we now call them the human rights. Some were amended over time, but somehow the right to ‘life, liberty and property’ of the mind was never asserted. In a sense, Elizabeth Anderson, a noted Feminist Epistemologist, enhanced our inalienable rights somewhat (Feminist Epistemology on Wikipedia and Stanford; and one of her articles originally published by the University of Chicago Press titled ‘What Is the Point of Equality?’). She said that there are many ‘goods’ that should not be treated as open to use or profit, are properly valued in ways other than utility, 'goods' including respect, honour, awe, sanctity, appreciation, love, etc. In short, one could say that human dignity cannot be used as a means to make money; it wouldn’t be ethical in any way whatsoever.

   I understand the potential conflict of interest with the right to freedom of religion. Yet in light of these, let’s call them enhanced inalienable human rights, religions and sects should be put under scrutiny as to whether they respect their devotees’ dignity. If they don’t respect this dignity, this humanity in their believers, then one has to wonder what the message is after all. How can they be restrictive in such a manner and still claim to fulfil spiritual needs? Yet in case of NXIVM, the right to religious freedom actually does not apply: The organisation explicitly states that it is non-religious. (From the ESP Training Materials as contained within the patent application for Rational Inquiry™ (1999) on public record at WIPO, ‘Rules and Rituals’, pg 62 under ‘16. Non-religious tribute, Non-sacred, Non-mystical: …’, and referred to thereafter throughout the document.)

   Another consideration, deterrent and way to know what goes on, and whether that is an infringement on the students freedoms, rights and (mental) health, would be to set up a clearly defined system of inspection. Most proper schools are subjected or subject themselves to government inspections, at least in some countries. This not only ensures a productive and sensible environment, sound teachings and ethical conduct, but the accreditation also enhances the public standing of the institution and thus the revenues can only profit. Inspection is not operative control by the government, but merely a way to ensure that a certain set of infrastructural and professional requirements, educational standards and ethical considerations are met that give the student a security to their investment. Such inspections would come in three types, regular, unannounced, and covert when suspicions or complaints about the operations of the institution arise.

   If a school fails the inspection, dependent on the concerns and their gravity, a warning would be issued (direct or public), the school temporarily closed pending further investigation, or even shut for good if blatant misuse/abuse were detected. Repeat offenders would be closed for good; people involved in such misuse barred from ever teaching anything to anybody again. Such accountability and responsibility would be in the best interest not only of the student, but of the school and the state as well. It should therefore and most importantly be extended to include not just schools with a fixed location but seminars as well. Under consideration of the enhanced inalienable human rights, any form of awareness training, success coaching and so forth, on personal or group levels, has to be included in such an inspection system. A due process, legal framework and proper training of inspectors has to be set up and enacted, giving this the professional authority it needs.

   How would the costs of something like this be covered? Parts of the money would be saved from health care (less (mental) abuse patients); parts could be regained by the increase in taxes people would generate, who are once again able to work in a normal environment; and in general these people would be spending their money not on a single institution anymore, but in the economy at large, which again leads to an increase in taxes. Would this cover all the costs of such an inspection system? Maybe not, but then what is the value of everybody's (mental) freedom and health, including our own, to us all?

   Organisations such as NXIVM will offer objections along libertarian lines. They will insist on the concept of a minimal state and call this an attempt at a police state. Yet does not such a system of inspected accreditation ensure their continued existence (life), operations (liberty) and the resulting revenue (property)? That is in essence not just a system of protection of the students, but also of the school, seminar and any other form of training facility; and according to libertarian ideas, the state’s only role should be the protection of these individual (or organisational) natural rights. If they run a truthfully professional institution, then again, it would be in their own interest and aligned with their philosophies to support such a system. By that logical reasoning, any rejection of such accreditation would constitute an implicit admission of guilt in matters under contention.

   A further point to address should be a potential enhancement or at least better public information of the existent avenues to lodge complaints. AntiCult mentioned some options to file a complaint, but they were mostly in California and concerning licensed or unlicensed psychotherapists (Byron Katie thread). Some of these complaints maybe led to an organisation doing such unlicensed mental meddling being shut down, but I think that system needs addressing and amending.

   So, for those active in informing about and weeding out cults, these should be some points to address with their respective governments. Only by actually creating a legal framework (ideally international as well, since many organisations operate in several countries(NXIVM, Scientology, etc.) which allows us to protect individuals and properly operating organisations from misuse, allows us to prosecute those who abuse others under due process can we hope to ensure the protection of everybody’s (enhanced) inalienable human rights. And isn’t that what we have created civilisation, states, justice, ethics and human culture for?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2010 04:05AM by Macumazahn.