bigskeptic, to us this handshake business may seem hilarious. Yet put yourself in their place.
   You’ve just started a new management seminar, for that is essentially what you’ve applied, paid and signed NDA’s for; so you’ll probably go at that open-minded since you actually want to learn something and being negative is such a damper to that; it’s been your choice to attend after all. Now they start talking about rules and rituals; give examples to each of them from other professions, courses, etc. (The only module they actually do so in such manner, by the by!); and one of them is how to properly shake each others hands, both in the seminars and outside, again giving a not utterly implausible explanation (to counter the objectification of humans in society). Yeah sure, you’ll feel a bit silly, but nonetheless, you do it; especially so since everybody else, feeling just as silly, does so too. Pretty soon this handshake becomes second nature; turns into something you’d feel naked without among your fellow students; ends up being a coveted sign of togetherness within the group. The same applies to bowing in respect to the session space and the founders: First it’s silly; then becomes routine; and finally respect is automatically generated towards anything you bow to without consideration as to whether it’s earned or not, be that in response to their bow or simply by their existence and the initial command to bow to them. (Mind you, for a non-American the pledge of allegiance seems just such a thing as well.)
   How is something like this possible? How can a silly gesture become such an important element in your life? How can there be such seemingly unconnected reactions triggered by a mere movement? If you know a little bit about acting, you might have stumbled across terms such as Affective Memory and, in these examples more importantly, Physical Action. (A more scientific reference if you like would be Psychophysiology.) By recalling some memories from the students past (e.g. feeling objectified in society for the handshakes, martial arts for bowing, etc…), adding some subtle explanations about ‘respect’, ‘sense of community’ and denoting ‘rank’ (like in the military, they do that too, don’t they?), and finally linking this whole mixture of personal experiences, clever suggestions and new group-awareness with a physical action. Thus after a while, whenever that movement is performed, an emotional response is triggered, creating unconditional respect, a sense of belonging to a group, or whatever else has been implanted into the action.

   PinkUnicorn, we may recognise Raniere as the paranoid narcissistic person he is; they can’t! It’s not due to an inability of theirs, but rather to his sense of self-preservation; he needs admirers that are in awe of him, or his whole mental construct of himself will falter and crash, leaving him with nothing but the reality of his meagre emotional existence. So towards the espians he will show but the most compassionate, generous and thoughtful personality that has but one goal in life, to make others happy, successful and help them better the world: To them, he becomes a selfless humanitarian par excellence, the paradigm of good! Add to that the other elements of group-awareness, manipulations, distancing from real truths and maybe even your social base; all done without you’re being aware of it; but justified nonetheless, just in case, with this being an intensive course whose experience would be diminished if you chatted outside the group during it, and of course the fact that you would disclose vital course materials if you did so nevertheless. There is a clear pattern in all the control mechanisms applied here, a combination of socially established elements (recalled by memories or evaluated in the many guided discussions), a screen of plausible and often even quite reasonable (in concept at least) ideas and methods in the teachings, and finally a well placed combination of suggestions, limitations, triggers, etc. often linked with physiological aspects and thus integrated into the teachings (breathing, facial expressions, etc. in the ‘Building Desire & Motivation’ module on pg 98 for example in the ESP Training Materials as to be found in the patent application for Rational Inquiry™ (1999) on public record at WIPO).
   You are right of course, some people do walk out of an organisation such as this; but even they are not over it just like that. With time, they will overcome all the triggers implanted, but believe me, it is one of the hardest journeys of personal discovery imaginable. How does one now of all the triggers? There are the obvious ones like ‘suppressives’; but what about the less apparent? There are physiological, emotional and memory triggers that are known to the organisation by having been discussed and exposed in the group. In the ESP Training Materials on page 99 under ‘3 Finding the Trigger to the Desire State’ there is a prime example of how such triggers are being made known to the coaches, even explored in depth by them, and thus made available to Raniere and NXIVM to be used on the espian at will. And it’s not only triggers a (former) member has to overcome; there are also behavioural patterns that need addressing, such as ‘pacing’, ‘leading’, getting into the ‘Power State’, etc., patterns that are questionable to begin with, applicable only in sales, and considered manipulative, unfair and unethical by most of humanity (I’ve posted about that in relation to Raniere's mental make-up last night on some other forum you might have read (post of March 16th, 11:18 PM)).
   But you do mention a very important fact: These things can be overcome with time! Some people may walk away (Bouchey’s defection probably was triggered by mounting inconsistencies between the teachings and Raniere’s behaviour, but most others will not have the luxury of such insight into the inner circle, the higher echelons of NXIVM), others need more help to do so, but all require our help thereafter, for getting out is but the first step in a long process of healing. Without help, this process is hell to bear and takes much longer than it needs to, believe me; it took me almost ten years on my own to get back to a semblance of a normal life after my experiences with a man like Raniere; and in my case it wasn’t even an organisation but rather a very small, private group. So yes, this can mostly be reversed, but we should help them as much as we can along the whole course of their journey back, help them even when it hurts all of us, them as well as the helpers. We need to try to understand not just on an abstract level what they’ve gone through, but truly comprehend with all the implications; otherwise they will feel abandoned even in our attempts to help, for it is very hard to relate such an experience to somebody, even a helper, who is not able to put themselves into the circumstances, to imagine what powers worked on them. To do so, we should use all the resources we can lay our hands on, get as much help ourselves as we can, build up a network not just to discuss, but of helpers and helper's helpers as well; we need to cover all the bases, from professional to personal, from philosophical to economical, from private to public, inside to outside. Do we need to be careful with the help offered? Sure, but that doesn't mean we can't use what is unconditionally available to us!

   As has been said, the court case in California will make some headway in the right direction; yet it is up to people like us to make sure that this is not just a blip in the night, that the movement is continuous and sustained. At the moment, there is an additional advantage coming from the shift in the economy due to the failures of recent years. Purely libertarian thinking becomes ever more unsustainable; ideas that social-obligations such as taxation are slavery are neither ethical, nor very popular in humanity (ESP, ‘Mission’ module, pg 207); the notion that the rich can just do whatever they want to be successful is fast becoming an offensive idea; in fact the concept of success is slowly changing in society, moving away from big cars and houses towards a more personal model of happiness. So, now is the time to keep up the pressure, now is the time to make sure that the often good intentions of NXIVM members can indeed bear fruits once their obstacle is removed from their path.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2010 04:35AM by Macumazahn.

Macumazahn, could you please break your posts into much smaller paragraphs? My eyes bleed when I try to read what you write, which means I skip what you write. Large chunks of text are almost impossible to read online.

Thank you.

Sorry Christa! Will do so in the future!

Macumazahn,
I will never understand people who are not true to themselves. While your post makes sense in that these people signed up and are positive and may have felt silly doing these exersises or whatever, I simply am not the type of person that would take any of it seriously. The people who got involved in this have a certain personality or life circumstances that enabled Raniere to get under their skin. I was pressured to get involved with NXIVM and I ran, not walked, away from a decent job and potential careeer. I was first and foremost, a mother with school aged kids, a wife to a fabulous man and a daughter not raised to be a fool. I had strong family ties and no money to lay out for a "seminar" that could make me successful or not. My circumstances did not warrant spending alot of money on nonsense like this and my relationship with my husband was and still is the most important thing in my life. Seeing what happened to others who became involved and hearing other accounts of broken families was the tipping point for me and I was not willing to risk what I had.

Because of this I made life changing decisions that still affect my family to this day. I am a big skeptic and always will be. I am still happily married and cult free. I made the right decision not to become involved because it is not in my personality to be led around by anybody and my family ties are so strong. In my opinion, the ones who chose to become involved did so because their personality enabled them to be snowed or they had alot of time and money on their hands.

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bigskeptic
My circumstances did not warrant spending alot of money on nonsense like this and my relationship with my husband was and still is the most important thing in my life. Seeing what happened to others who became involved and hearing other accounts of broken families was the tipping point for me and I was not willing to risk what I had.

For this alone, Raniere, and others at the top, and as I've read, the heads of other types of LGAT participation that have resulted in such scenarios, need to be punished, and severely. Manipulating people such that it causes turmoil within family relationships for your own self-serving purposes by labeling them as "disintegrating" or such other nonsense, when you do not have the qualifications to assess its standing and obviously have no good intentions, falls under the category of "below vile".

You interfere with family, you go down, and hard.

pinkunicorn:

The only way people can be "punished" is through the courts and within the law.

Other than that public education can be deterrent, i.e. informing others about a particular group and its questionable practices and/or more general education about thought reform and coercive persuasion techniques.

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rrmoderator
pinkunicorn:

The only way people can be "punished" is through the courts and within the law.

Other than that public education can be deterrent, i.e. informing others about a particular group and its questionable practices and/or more general education about thought reform and coercive persuasion techniques.

Yes, I understand. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. The dismantling of an organization and the censor of its leaders, whether legally, or in the public eye via the methods you have detailed so others are never hurt by it in the future is a severe and sufficient enough "punishment" for me. I didn't mean to implicate myself as a believer in vigilantism, although I'm not sure how I would react if any type of horror story concerning the deconstruction of families that I have read about, personally affected me. I don't have any mob family ties ;).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2010 10:20PM by pinkunicorn.

   bigskeptic:

   Ah, but are they untrue to themselves? When they are aware of their desires and maybe needs, their strengths and weaknesses, and to address these attend a seminar that is advertised, even promoted by those close to them, people they trust, as a means to do this professionally, are they untrue to themselves then? Are they untrue to themselves, when their inner truths are slowly but inexorably manipulated and changed to align with the organisation’s ‘consistent’ reality? Are they untrue to themselves, when they are being taught that (self-) ‘honesty’ is paramount and relates to inconsistencies in their personality? They’re not untrue to themselves, but their truth, their reality has been shifted over time. And then, what is the truth in any case? What is reality after all? If we say that there is but one truth, one reality, then aren’t we equally maintaining that we know that truth? Raniere does so; he’s just such a holder of the sole truth!

   Circumstances and personality may make somebody more susceptible – or less. Sometimes good qualities such as curiosity, open-mindedness, sensibility to the needs of others, a general desire to do good, make people more susceptible to the tender machinations of such organisations. Yet to say that only those with certain personalities and in a particular set of circumstances will fall victim to something like this is not just demeaning but simply not true. People from all walks of life and with all sorts of personalities, even the most balanced can be converted with the right tactics; history has proven this time and again.

   And NXIVM probably often targets its desired members, occasionally tries to survey them, even rejects ‘entry to various categories of people’ (the rarb thread, Keith Raniere, second paragraph, ‘For many reasons […] of people.)’). Sure, in general, if you can uphold the flow of cash, you’ll probably be welcome as one of the many; but they won’t be spending too much effort on you. However, if you have an influential friend, family member or other connection, suddenly you are very welcome, interesting, and to you they make the program even more enticing and captivating: They want to get to the influential person, want you to recruit your famous girlfriend or powerful husband.

   I’m glad you were able to escape their lure! But to assume that others have a weak personality, nothing sensible to do, or simply too much money is in my opinion too simplistic and actually counter-productive in the process of helping those who have been artfully influenced by a highly functional professional manipulator. Maybe you've read 'The Wave' by Morton Rhue; it describes many of the mechanisms of manipulation and control you will find in the patent application for Rational Inquiry™ as well.
*
   PinkUnicorn:

   The dismantling of NXIVM (and others), the public discredit of base operators such as Raniere, and thus the future prevention of further harm: for the moment, this has to do, I’m afraid. Later and in result of this, we as a society may be able to create the legal framework necessary to protect ourselves from this sort of thing. I think the involvement of family or friends, in light of the dangers that it poses to any such relationship, whether acute or not, is a motivator to take action, to engage those unfortunate in dialogue, and to try to get them out as gently as we can. This is what we can do now; we cannot simply wait for the law to catch up with the problem.
*
   But the first step is to understand; to use your imagination and put yourself in their situation; to study the techniques applied, not just on an abstract and generalised level but in detail and specific to NXIVM. If you cannot comprehend them; if you cannot talk to them in terms they feel comfortable with; if you cannot reach them at least halfway; how are you ever going to engage them in a productive dialogue? It may be the hardest thing to do, truthfully to imagine such an environment, to admit even that you yourself could be taken in by such ‘gifted’ manipulators, but without this effort, you’ll simply push your espian family members or friends away; they will feel attacked and misunderstood, close up, walk away, and allow their triggers to control their actions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2010 06:32AM by Macumazahn.

I didn't want to imply that anyone who gets involved with NXIVM is weak. I know several people who are involved that have dynamic personalities. That being said, I know some who have taken the full intensive course and have walked away thinking it wasn't their thing and others who have made it the focus of their life. I guess my take on it, from what I've seen, is that people who have a certain mind set, who have attained a level of personal fulfillment, who have solid marriages and happy children and no excess baggage are able to take the classes and put them in prospective, not make it the core of their existance. Of course, it is impossible for me to know every person involved and I am basing my observations on just the ones I know personally, but I hold true to my first statements. I think it is personality and circumstances that make a person take the classes to begin with. Some, like me, were not able to be pursuaded to even consider the money or time it would take to attend. Others did agree... some became devoted, some did not. It does come down to personality type and vulnerability.

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bigskeptic
I didn't want to imply that anyone who gets involved with NXIVM is weak. I know several people who are involved that have dynamic personalities. That being said, I know some who have taken the full intensive course and have walked away thinking it wasn't their thing and others who have made it the focus of their life. I guess my take on it, from what I've seen, is that people who have a certain mind set, who have attained a level of personal fulfillment, who have solid marriages and happy children and no excess baggage are able to take the classes and put them in prospective, not make it the core of their existance. Of course, it is impossible for me to know every person involved and I am basing my observations on just the ones I know personally, but I hold true to my first statements. I think it is personality and circumstances that make a person take the classes to begin with. Some, like me, were not able to be pursuaded to even consider the money or time it would take to attend. Others did agree... some became devoted, some did not. It does come down to personality type and vulnerability.

I agree with this assessment. I see only a small set of reasons why people would attempt to seek help from sketchy organizations such as a LGAT.

1) They've been recruited into it by someone they trust.
2) They are at a low point in their life where things aren't going well for them, and their personality types make them vulnerable to such groups that claim to be able to resolve their issues.
3) They are facing some internal struggle within their career or personal life (self-esteem issues or other) that they want to overcome because they've accepted it as something that is holding back their "potential", and these groups claim to be able to help you to overcome them so that you can realize your "potential".
4) They use an ethical message as the hook for genuinely altruistic people who want to help others because most people are good.
5) They feel something is missing in their current set of personal relationships so they seek out new ones in these groups.
6) They don't really have a strong, current belief system.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2010 11:46PM by pinkunicorn.