Montreal - This coming weekend my gf takes the Advanced Course. There is no possible chance of convincing her to not take it, I didn't even bother trying that (it's really not my perogative to attempt such a thing anyway). But I have worked towards trying to get her to think about other things, especially on where to spend her money, as she has so little of it. Such as going back to college to ger her bachelors, as she got close, and it bothers her that she didn't finish it. Also, she is very, very emotionally drawn to me. I can only say that it's going to be interesting. I'll post again after this weekend to let you all know how things are going.

Once again, just to be clear, no matter what happens, I am NOT going to attend the Landmark Forum. None of their classes.

Hi Toyer,

I have just read over all your postings. I understand your own philosophy and I respect this: That we are all responsible to ourselves for our own actions.

I adhere to this however, if in the case of a person who is obviously out of touch with reality, do we apply this philosophy to the same degree? At what point can we intervene? At what point do we decide that a person is not fully responsible for their actions that may lead to detrimental results?

At what point does wisdom allow us to question the appropriateness of our philosophy to a given situation?

I feel it is time to show her the written evidence against Landmark.

[b:1d11fa4504]If you decide to intervene:[/b:1d11fa4504]
* Pass her this document written by a psychologist and sociologist on the Lifespring LGAT. My ex-girlfriend told me who read it 7 weeks ago that it is 97% representative of her Landmark experience.

Pathology as Personal Growth - Lifespring
[perso.wanadoo.fr]


* Show her also this testimony:
Testimonial – from a loved one
[www.dike.de]

* Speak to a exit counsellor


Take her to dinner this Wednesday Night. Do this for yourself as well as her as starting from Thursday, she will slip further away from you. You will become just a story in her life from Saturday Night and may be viewed as "holding her back". Her reasoning and logic will be further by-passed by the use of hypnosis.

On the Saturday of the Advanced Course, my ex "completed" with me by being "authentic" telling me that she had left her married man. She rang me 9 times leaving messages on 3 phones during her breaks. I pleaded with her to leave the course and she cried saying: "I can't, I can't" On the Sunday Morning, (after doing the "my life story" exercise), she became so assertive saying that I just had to do the Forum. That was late October 2003. She has never been the same since. Since then, all I have been is just a story in her life without meaning.

Good luck Toyer. :)

Oz

Concerned Oz,
I received a message from you asking how my research on Landmark was going, and that you may have someone interested in talking to me. But I was unable to post a reply until I've posted 10 times or something. So please email me privately at cstancl@ctv.ca
Thanks.
CanadaCat

Hello again - My gf made it through the Advanced Forum and is all excited about it. She stated via e-mail: "Tuesday night is the last part of the class and it would mean a lot to me if you would be there to support as I complete my class and complete me creating who I am now in the world. Do you think that is a possibility?"

I wrote back in a rather dry e-mail (mostly because I'm catching cold, and stressed out on many other things) "I am honestly not interested in Landmark, and don't want to attend. Sorry if this all sounds dry."

What will happen next? Who knows. But the base is still the same. I will not attend any Landmark forums, meetings or anything. Not now, not ever. Period. If the decision comes down to me or Landmark, so be it. We all choose the lives we live and must be accountable to that. I will say this to Oz and the others, if it does come to that, I will give her information that you have passed on to me about LGAT and such.

Thanks again for all your help. I'll keep you all posted if you're interested.

I'd like to hear how things are going.

Is it possible to pass her any information now? I ask because once someone takes a stand against Landmark with someone close to them, the relationship tends to deteriorate. It's possible and perhaps probable that your girlfriend will be pressured to make exactly the decision you speak of, and then you'll have even less contact with her and will be less able to help.

I do know of someone else in your situation who persuaded his girlfriend to read Lifton's Eight Criteria online, and managed to get her out of a similar LGAT. e managed to remain loving and supportive while also making it clear he thought her LGAT was not fine with him (difficult to do).

The longer she stays in, the harder it may be to get her out (though some people leave on their own after becoming disenchanted). I hate to see your relationship go down the tubes because of Landmark.

I've heard Landmark people may be more open to info about similar groups, since they don't slam Landmark, which is why I recommend the Lifespring study:

[www.culteducation.com]

Glam

Quote
Toyer
Hello again - My gf made it through the Advanced Forum and is all excited about it. She stated via e-mail: "Tuesday night is the last part of the class and it would mean a lot to me if you would be there to support as I complete my class and complete me creating who I am now in the world. Do you think that is a possibility?"

I wrote back in a rather dry e-mail (mostly because I'm catching cold, and stressed out on many other things) "I am honestly not interested in Landmark, and don't want to attend. Sorry if this all sounds dry."

What will happen next? Who knows. But the base is still the same. I will not attend any Landmark forums, meetings or anything. Not now, not ever. Period. If the decision comes down to me or Landmark, so be it. We all choose the lives we live and must be accountable to that. I will say this to Oz and the others, if it does come to that, I will give her information that you have passed on to me about LGAT and such.

Thanks again for all your help. I'll keep you all posted if you're interested.

Hi Toyer,

She's likely to take your "rejection" very, very personally as this is the way Landmark takes over people's minds. Notice she may call it "my" Forum. The "program" assumes a part of the person's identity and substitutes or takes the place of the person's own ego defense system, which we all have, to some degree or other. Neat trick, huh? Any criticism or unflattering comment about Landmark becomes a criticism or unflattering comment about the person her or himself. "It would mean a lot to me" and you'd be "supporting" me are right out of the Landmark manual used to rope friends and family into the Tuesday night metting. As she has gotten as far as the "Advanced" course, she probably will not entertain any doubts until the fatigue, exhaustion, disallusion, frustration, and hypocrisy reach some sort of critical mass. If she is young and healthy, that could be years. Any criticism or skepticism on your part, no matter how well founded or obvious, will probably drive her further and further into the group. That's how it's designed.


Ellen

I can't really comment on all that, but I can give a quick update. I met with her tonight (other friends were around at a get together, not a Landmark thing). She was full of the same apologies that happen after all of these events (just like the others, you know the drill), even though there is nothing to apologize for. She seems okay with my statement that I won't go to any Landmark event. She was obviously disappointed, but swallowed it. How did she appear to me? Well, her cognative reasoning after going to any Landmark event seems to be convoluted, and this was no different. I can't really explain it any more than that. What has happened in the past is that after the dust settles, she seems to return somewhat to normal. It takes time, and it helps if I do two things: say I don't want to talk about Landmark. Neither positive, nor negative. She struggles but accepts this line in the sand. It also helps if we do a lot of fun things, and talk about a lot of other things. What I'm hoping to do now is get her to focus on what goals she's stated in the past, such as completing her college degree, and see what happens from there. I won't be able to post here on that for a while though. I expect to see her in about a week. I'll perhaps give an update at that time.

Take a look at what this guy wrote!

[www.jewishjournal.com]


FYI... this book referenced in above link is titled "The Program", a mystery thriller about a cult, that is based upon a conglamoration of other cults (to protect the author from being sued), based primarily upon LGAT practices.

While I was not a participant in an LGAT.. the title of the book makes me personally chuckle. My TM background was all about doing "The (meditation) Program". our lives were oriented around "The Program". It was better, both individually and to facilitate world peace, if "we did The Program together", rather than alone, preestablished times globally so we were "all in Program in synchrony together". Sometimes we would "Miss our Program" (horrors). or "arrive late to Group Program" and be "locked out of Program"... crawling away w/ our tails between our legs. I was always in trouble, including with my then husband, for being "Off the Program" because I refused to totally neglect our children.
My then young children had to wait to open their Christmas presents until we "finished our Program"... I was bad and allowed them access to their stockings until we were done. (yes, I've apologized to them since, manyfold!)

Worst possibe thing that could happen to one would be "to be kicked out of Program".. because that stigma lasted for eternity - would not achieve enlightenment, nor access to the Master, nor the new higher teachings that would eventually come forth. They maintained some type of roster that would track you globally if you were "kicked off the Program".. could never again "do Group Program" anywhere in the world. Apparently, many years ago, my exhusband even intervened on my behalf, when there were discussions about kicking me off The Program. I wonder what my "Program Status" is with them now....
My remarks are NOT fiction.

Take my words and substitute "The Forum" or "The Intensive" "The Workshop"... you name it!

:roll:

How do i answer the poll?
my answer "why would you want to do that to yourself?"

An excellent film on Cults, presented in a real (ie, frightening, realistic, not outrageous) manner is Ticket to Heaven, starring Nick Mancuso.