1- How long after taking the initial "Forum" course, do they take
the "Advanced" courses?

2- Are these "Advanced" courses usually taken by your own
desire/decision or more likely pushed upon you by a Landmark
member?

3- After which course do they "Create Possibilities" for themselves?

4- After which course do they consider themselves "Transformed"?

5- What is the time span in completing all available courses from
Landmark?

6- Do they expect you to do them in a time span?

7- What are the activities that members of Landmark do together?
Is "Kino" movies part of it? Get togethers that start at 6pm till 3am?
Sleepovers at other members homes?

8- Is it more likely that when you have done these Landmark courses,
that your friends will be Landmarkians?

9- What happens to your non-Landmark friends, if they are not
interested in doing any of those courses?

10- If you are living with a Landmarkian as a non-Landmarkian, how do
you know which friends of theirs are or are not Landmarkian, if
the "Landmark" subject doesn't come up in conversations?

11- If you are living with a Landmarkian, have done the "Forum", but not
interested in doing any further courses, can a Landmarkian be able to
transform you without you realizing it, without taking further courses?
Can they unconciencly coax you and fill you with input, that
eventually you will go on and take further courses? Do they put a
time limit on this process?

12- If a person tells you that they did the "Forum" course over a year
ago, and then asks you to participate and pays for your "Forum"
course, is this a sign that they are still in Landmark and recruiting for
them? Or is it because they beleive you can live the same experience
as they did?

13- Who actually paid for that "Free Forum" course, the member that sent
you there or Landmark itself?

14- Can you trust a Landmarkian or their friends?

15- Is a loving/true/honest "normal" relationship possible between a non-
Landmarkian & a Landmarkian? Or does it just start that way, for
other intention purposes? What are the signs that there are other
things to come?

16- What are the "tactics" used in these relationships to make you
beleive that they are truly real and then convert you?

17- Is full committment what they focus on, when they start a
relationship with a non-Lamarkian. Do they usually speed through
the stages? Faster than normal, connection, attraction, introduction
to family members & friends instantly, committment, future plans,
etc,,,

18- Companies that send their employees & pay for these courses, how
involved are they with their employees? Does the company become
a "family unit" Do they keep an eye on their employees? Do these
companies become "recruiters" and want only 'Landmark" people
working for them?

19- When a "Landmarkian" is sent by their employer, to do volunteer
work for a certain cause,,, Is this volunteer work coming straight
from the Landmark office to the company? How can a company
afford to send an employee to do volunteer work on company time?

20- How dangerous is it to get involved in a relationship with a
Landmarkian that is claiming to create possibilities and has been
transformed?

1- How long after taking the initial "Forum" course, do they take
the "Advanced" courses?
Oz - The Forum is a 3 day weekend course followed by a graduation, (and invite friends, family), night the following Tuesday. A free Seminar series called "Forum In Action" is held for the following 10 Tuesday nights. During these 11 Tuesday Nights, the Advanced Course is heavilly sold so in effect, the Forum Graduate could take the next available Advanced Course.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

2- Are these "Advanced" courses usually taken by your own
desire/decision or more likely pushed upon you by a Landmark
member?
Oz - Some people are so impressed with the Forum that they immediately "enroll" for the Advanced Course. SoOme people are pressured. If money is an issue, it has been known for a collection to be taken up so a person can enroll. My ex g/f had someone pay for her. One week she was definately not doing it, the next week she was doing it.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

3- After which course do they "Create Possibilities" for themselves?
Oz - After the first course, The Forum. After the Advanced Course, the graduate makes the "distinction" from "creating possibilities" to "being possibility"[/color:382ad2f6a8]

4- After which course do they consider themselves "Transformed"?
Oz - The Forum is designed for "transformation" of the participant. Following courses are designed for futher "distinctions" to be made - more "getting it".[/color:382ad2f6a8]

5- What is the time span in completing all available courses from
Landmark?
Oz - There are 60 courses ranging from one night seminars to leadership programmes spaning years.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

6- Do they expect you to do them in a time span?
Oz - Landmark is a business that runs on cashflow - more people doing as many courses as possible.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

7- What are the activities that members of Landmark do together?
Is "Kino" movies part of it? Get togethers that start at 6pm till 3am?
Sleepovers at other members homes?
Oz - Assisting in running courses, once in the SELP course, participants meet outside to develop community projects. The focus that most active Landmarkians have is to meet as mant people outside of Landmark, (network), in order to bring them into the Forum.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

8- Is it more likely that when you have done these Landmark courses,
that your friends will be Landmarkians?
Oz - If a person is active in Landmark, their friends fall into two catagories: Landmarkians; and potential Landmarkians. If a friend or family member objects to a Landmarkian's behaviour or LE participation, they are shunned and they are trained to do this at a conscious and unconscious level, ("everyone is out to get me").[/color:382ad2f6a8]

9- What happens to your non-Landmark friends, if they are not
interested in doing any of those courses?
Oz - as in q8[/color:382ad2f6a8]

10- If you are living with a Landmarkian as a non-Landmarkian, how do
you know which friends of theirs are or are not Landmarkian, if
the "Landmark" subject doesn't come up in conversations?
Oz - intuition and observance of the LE cult vocabulary.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

11- If you are living with a Landmarkian, have done the "Forum", but not
interested in doing any further courses, can a Landmarkian be able to
transform you without you realizing it, without taking further courses?
Can they unconciencly coax you and fill you with input, that
eventually you will go on and take further courses? Do they put a
time limit on this process?
Oz - It depends on the "suggestibility" of the non-Landmarkian and the stickyness of the Landmarkian's new "charasmatic" personality. If the Landmarkian has done the Advanced Course, they are trained in hypnotic suggestion and trance induction so theoretically - yes, but its no where near as powerful as doing the courses yourself.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

12- If a person tells you that they did the "Forum" course over a year
ago, and then asks you to participate and pays for your "Forum"
course, is this a sign that they are still in Landmark and recruiting for
them? Or is it because they beleive you can live the same experience
as they did?
Oz - too hypothetical other than to say if someone pays for you to do a course, they believe in the course, institution, cult.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

13- Who actually paid for that "Free Forum" course, the member that sent
you there or Landmark itself?
Oz - unless you are a celeb with a huge network, LE don't generally give freebees - they are a business. [/color:382ad2f6a8]

14- Can you trust a Landmarkian or their friends?
Oz - Again - exercise intuition. In my experience, no. They will tell you black is white and that it does not matter anyway - just do the course. I have also noticed that Landmarkians say they will do something and then don't do it. There "authenticity" and "integrity" is centred around themself and LE only. Other people are a "resource in their life" - that's all. You are either a "user" or a "usee". This is taught in either the 4th or 5th "Forum In Action" evening. [/color:382ad2f6a8]

15- Is a loving/true/honest "normal" relationship possible between a non-
Landmarkian & a Landmarkian? Or does it just start that way, for
other intention purposes? What are the signs that there are other
things to come?
Oz -answered in other questions [/color:382ad2f6a8]

16- What are the "tactics" used in these relationships to make you
beleive that they are truly real and then convert you?
Oz - Lovebombing, praise etc. [/color:382ad2f6a8]

17- Is full committment what they focus on, when they start a
relationship with a non-Lamarkian. Do they usually speed through
the stages? Faster than normal, connection, attraction, introduction
to family members & friends instantly, committment, future plans,
etc,,,
Oz - oh yes[/color:382ad2f6a8]

18- Companies that send their employees & pay for these courses, how
involved are they with their employees? Does the company become
a "family unit" Do they keep an eye on their employees? Do these
companies become "recruiters" and want only 'Landmark" people
working for them?
Oz - Rick Ross has some examples on his main site as to what happens when landmark enters a company. Over time, performance tends to go down as the psychological effects of the courses CAN reduce a person's attention to detail. Generally, there ends up too many chiefs and not enough indians.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

19- When a "Landmarkian" is sent by their employer, to do volunteer
work for a certain cause,,, Is this volunteer work coming straight
from the Landmark office to the company? How can a company
afford to send an employee to do volunteer work on company time?
Oz - Part of the SELP course is about promoting community service and Landmarkians usually pick a cause and develop a project in their own time. The SELP course follows the Advanced Course.[/color:382ad2f6a8]

20- How dangerous is it to get involved in a relationship with a
Landmarkian that is claiming to create possibilities and has been
transformed?
Oz - What do you think?[/color:382ad2f6a8]

Hope this helps,
Oz

I started to tackle this but didn't finish. Just too much "Landmark" for me at one time. I would add to #20:



20- How dangerous is it to get involved in a relationship with a
Landmarkian that is claiming to create possibilities and has been
transformed?


Generally, a Landmark enthusiast is in a state of, what they call "thrall," in cult-land. It can also be type of hypomania or sometimes outright mania. They associate this "high" with their participation, and so keep going back for more to maintain it. The price they pay to continue the involvement is to promise to bring in more paying customers. If they are actively recruiting, they are probably "hooked." There are some dim-bulbs who just adopt the jargon and go about their business without further participation. Those are more dangerous, in my opinion. They have only taken what they can use and can go along quite happy in the Landmark "justifications" of their self-centeredness and conceit. The Landmark "philosophy" becomes a set of ego-defenses that replace whatever they arrived with. Those doing the proselytising are more likely to come in contact with the "real" world, negative information, discouragement, or downright hostility, and so are more likely to, at least, be exposed to contrary information which might set them on the path of discovery.

The most oft-heard complaint about Landmarkers is their arrogance, hidden though it may be under the guise of "concern" for you and your problems, rest assured, this is only a cover. You become a prop, a supporting character, as Oz pointed out; a resource, something to be utilized. If your become unwilling to go along with their "transformation," you will "cease to exist," in fairly short order. Landmark turns normal people into a**holes; aggressive, self-important, social-climbing, opinionated, jargon-spewing nitwits - the opposite of what they presume themselves to be.

Does that sound like any fun?


Ellen

Quote
Concerned Oz
5- What is the time span in completing all available courses from
Landmark?
Oz - There are 60 courses ranging from one night seminars to leadership programmes spaning years.[/color:9c4f259386]

6- Do they expect you to do them in a time span?
Oz - Landmark is a business that runs on cashflow - more people doing as many courses as possible.[/color:9c4f259386]

in addition to which, some people will take one or more courses more than one times.

I disagree a little bit with Concerned Oz as to recruiting.

a friend who lives (or lived... not sure which) with a number of total LEC zealots says that they tried to convert him once and then left him alone.

one of my uncles... not the one I have mentioned before... and my mother (separately) took LEC courses as part of their work. my mother and I do not communicate as a rule. I may get around to asking him if his workplace changed as a result and in which way. have a feeling he will just say, "no, and shut up with your harping on about Landmark." (he, BTW, has an indifferent attitude towards LEC.)

Thank you Oz, for clearing the dust and making some things just a little bit clearer. I had written counter questions, but when I clicked to submit, it sent me to signing in, which then sent me back an empty post, all I had written was gone, Arghhhh!!! I will gather all my thoughts again and resend my questions shortly.

Thank you Elena, Looking forward to see your replies to the rest of the questions, I am sure you have your share of two cents to add to what Oz already wrote.

I received a private message that said: I have noticed an aggressive, self-important, opinionated, self-righteous, holier than thou attitude from you. Was it Landmark that caused you to be this way or something else?[/color:1124774e1f]

Huh? Have I really come across this way?

Montreal mentions receiving a PM that reads:

Quote

I have noticed an aggressive, self-important, opinionated, self-righteous, holier than thou attitude from you. Was it Landmark that caused you to be this way or something else?

There has been nothing at all the matter with Montreal's tone. It appears that that PM was sent to undermine your confidence.

We have had some individuals lately who do not post to message board but instead send unpleasant private messages to members. Interestingly, these persons have never seen fit to discuss their concerns directly with the moderators--which would be the adult thing to do.

*The common denominator among recipients of these unpleasant messages is that recipients have all expressed misgivings about LGATs and desire to discuss information that is objective, carefully researched, and [i:6177bd6c92]derived from non-LGAT sources[/i:6177bd6c92].

If an individual has concerns or disagrees with something on the message board, that person should

1) Courteously bring that matter up first on the message board

or if that doesnt bring satisfaction

2) Discuss the matter directly with one of the moderators.

If anyone here receives PM's that give them bad vibes, let the moderators know about it and forward us a copy.[/list]

Quote

5- What is the time span in completing all available courses from
Landmark?
Oz - There are 60 courses ranging from one night seminars to leadership programmes spaning years.

Yes, and there are also "special events" (like the one on the LEC website now) that are used to keep people coming and bring them back again once they've left. I know Landmarkers who haven't been to a Landmark event in years, but still receive postcard invitations to these things. And you're always encouraged to take the courses over and over again...some people take The Forum several times. They're usually the ones in the audience who are the loudest about being transformed. Claques, or Plants, whichever you'd like to call them.

If they can, Landmark will keep you attending meetings and "volunteering" your entire life. And they'll make it a full-time gig, if possible. In addition to the regular seminars and meetings, they also get you involved in all sorts of other Landmark-related activites. And there's also The Hunger Project, a way to get even more money from Landmarkers in the name of "ending hunger." The poor people who fall for this actually believe their contributions are helping end world hunger, but if you pay attention, you'll realize all your Hunger Project money does is buy you more seminars to help you realize that "the end of world hunger is an idea whose time has come," as if you need to pay to learn that! In other words, The Hunger Project feeds nothing but egos. LOL!

Thanks, Oz, for all your answers. I wanted to answer myself, but I'm not as informed as you. Your info is very helpful.

Glam

To who it may concern:

There seems to be a nut, repeatedly banned from the board, registering again and again under various new names.

It looks like this is a diehard originally known as "Siam."

He or she apparently hopes to use the private messaging system of this message board to harass people.

If anyone receives such email please let me know and I will have the sender banned.

Using the PM system this way is not allowed.

[b:0ff6c7fa22]1- A free Seminar series called "Forum In Action" [/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-What happens in the "Forum in Action" courses??
-What do the participants have to do?
-Do you have to take the "Forum in Action" courses in order to take the
Advanced courses??[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]2-It has been known for a collection to be taken up so a person can enroll.[/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-The collection taken, starts by whom? People that work for Landmark,
pretending to be participants? Just in order to force the newly
participants to empty their pockets and through the good deed these
people are doing, make themselves look like such a wonderful place?[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]3-After the Advanced Course, the graduate makes the "distinction" from "creating possibilities" to "being possibility"[/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-So when someone says "I am creating my possibility, whatever it may be" means that they have indeed taken an "Advanced" course.[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]4-The Forum is designed for "transformation" of the participant. Following courses are designed for futher "distinctions" to be made - more "getting it"-[/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-When they refer to "Getting It" Get what???? What are they getting? (Getting f***ed without knowing it) ???
-What do they mean by "Transformation" is it when people that really
know you, see a change in you and ask you "What happened to you"?
- Is it when they don't seem to have any more time for you, cause they
are just too busy (yet don't really tell you busy about what)?[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]5-There are 60 courses ranging from one night seminars to leadership programmes spaning years[/b:0ff6c7fa22]-Leadership? What do these leaders do?
-Is leadership something they emphasize on, so people move towards that as their goal?[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]7-Once in the SELP course, participants meet outside to develop community projects. [/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-Community projects? Such as?[/color:0ff6c7fa22]


[b:0ff6c7fa22]8- If a person is active in Landmark, their friends fall into two catagories: Landmarkians; and potential Landmarkians. If a friend or family member objects to a Landmarkian's behaviour or LE participation, they are shunned and they are trained to do this at a conscious and unconscious level, ("everyone is out to get me"[/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-In other words, no contact allowed with the outside world if they are not
Landmarkians or future Landmarkians?[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]11-If the Landmarkian has done the Advanced Course, they are trained in hypnotic suggestion and trance induction so theoretically - yes, but its no where near as powerful as doing the courses yourself. [/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-They are trained this in their "Advanced" courses to do to others???[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

Outline of Brainwashing Methodology
[www.livejournal.com]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]14- There "authenticity" and "integrity" is centred around themself and LE only. Other people are a "resource in their life" - that's all. You are either a "user" or a "usee". This is taught in either the 4th or 5th "Forum In Action" evening. [/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-So whatever they say to a non-Landmarkian is total BS when it comes to true feelings?
-They are using you, to get you to Landmark?[/color:0ff6c7fa22]


[b:0ff6c7fa22]18- Rick Ross has some examples on his main site as to what happens when landmark enters a company. [/b:0ff6c7fa22]

Found this on a french site, scroll down to- Landmark Education International[/color:0ff6c7fa22]
[www.infosectes.com]

[b:0ff6c7fa22]-Who is Club Toast Masters and what are they to Landmark?[/b:0ff6c7fa22]
-They are being referred in this text as the middleman that served to introduce Landmark to IBM.
- Didn't see "Club Toast Masters" mentioned in any of the Landmark
articles I've read up to now, who are they?[/color:0ff6c7fa22]


Landmark[/color:0ff6c7fa22] a eu pour principal client la société IBM-[/color:0ff6c7fa22]France au sein de laquelle elle a organisé, à partir de 1992, plusieurs sessions de formation qui ont déclenché au sein du groupe une vaste polémique, et seraient à l'origine du suicide d'un des salariés. La secte aurait été introduite dans IBM[/color:0ff6c7fa22]-France par l'intermédiaire d'un club de réflexion intitulé le Forum des rives de Seine - Club Toast masters. [/color:0ff6c7fa22]Créé et financé par le comité d'entreprise de la société, ce club s'adresse à ses cadres en dehors des heures de travail. Il est animé par un ingénieur qui aurait fait du démarchage auprès des adhérents en faveur de Landmark[/color:0ff6c7fa22]. Les méthodes de la secte ont suscité une réaction de la direction d'IBM[/color:0ff6c7fa22] qui a dénoncé les dangers des techniques employées, et a mis en évidence les risques de prosélytisme.

M. Roth s'est imposé au sein d'IBM [/color:0ff6c7fa22]de deux manières. Il est tout d'abord intervenu en 1991 lors d'un séminaire intitulé " Leader pour réussir ", animé en majeure partie en interne, mais pour lequel le groupe faisait appel à des intervenants extérieurs. Parallèlement, de mi-1991 au début de 1993, il a dispensé " le Forum[/color:0ff6c7fa22] " à seize salariés dans le cadre d'un programme intitulé " participation aux frais d'études " qui consistait à financer à 75 ou 100 % dans un plafond de 2000 francs les demandes de formation individuelle présentées par le personnel. Alertée par plusieurs stagiaires, la direction a décidé d'y mettre fin le 30 mars 1993. Cette décision a d'ailleurs provoqué des protestations véhémentes de plusieurs salariés. La direction reste convaincue que le Forum[/color:0ff6c7fa22] a continué à être dispensé au sein d'IBM[/color:0ff6c7fa22] après le 30 mars 1993 par le canal d'initiatives personnelles. Il semble que ce soit la branche " banque " du groupe qui ait été la plus touchée.

Pour faire face à cette tentative d'infiltration, la Direction générale d'IBM[/color:0ff6c7fa22] a décidé de centraliser les décisions en matière de formation professionnelle et d'internaliser les prestations réalisées dans ce domaine.



[b:0ff6c7fa22]20- How dangerous is it to get involved in a relationship with a
Landmarkian that is claiming to create possibilities and has been
transformed?[/b:0ff6c7fa22]
Oz - What do you think?[/color:0ff6c7fa22][/b][/b]

- I think I came to the right place to find that out....How do we relate the message though???[/color:0ff6c7fa22]

Quote

-When they refer to "Getting It" Get what???? What are they getting?
-What do they mean by "Transformation" is it when people that really
know you, see a change in you and ask you "What happened to you"?
- Is it when they don't seem to have any more time for you, cause they
are just too busy (yet don't really tell you busy about what)?

"Getting it" is reaching the trace/hypnotic state brought on by physical and mental exhaustion in the seminars. Your mind "snaps," making you extremely suggestible. Also called "transformation." In this state, you'll believe anything, even Landmark nonsense, and think you're "getting something" deep or mystical that nobody else has the smarts to understand. You see the change in your friends when they start acting like Stepford people. They're too busy for you because Landmark is taking up all their free time.

Quote

-Is leadership something they emphasize on, so people move towards that as their goal?

Although "leadership" seems to be something they're teaching, when you get right down to it, the only leadership skills they actually teach is how to lead a Landmark seminar. Take a look at the "leadership" stuff on their website. This requires years of expensive training, because you're taught to be a clone of Werner Erhard, the original Landmark leader. You're taught to break people down physically and mentally to reach a trance state, and how to hypnotize people into believing Landmark jargon, although you may not realize that's what you're being taught to do.

Quote

-In other words, no contact allowed with the outside world if they are not Landmarkians or future Landmarkians?

They'll cut you off if you're totally not interested in Landmark, but they'll string you along if there's the slightest chance you might be talked into it.