Good link, corboy. Amusing stuff. #4 from the article is pertinent to this site. "Moderaters need to be armed". This site works so well because it is closely and carefully moderated.

As a side note, there is another site I used to go to (NOT cult or religion related) which boasted at least 6 different moderators. Threads would be hijacked in odd ways. I started discussion on a topic and the following day it had devolved into (literally) "How's the weather where you are?" "My dog had puppies, anyone want to buy one?" etc.

The moderators were toothless and refused to keep the posts on topic.

I think rrmoderator is correct in asking:

"Did Amhebera ever say what specifically he or she is critical about concerning Landmark? As such a supposedly "neutral" Landmark participant is pressed to answer specific questions and/or questioned critically, they will become increasingly irritated, and the real nature and purpose of his or her purpose of participation at this message board seems to come out".

Amhebera has been quick to explain his/her "positive" experiences with Landmark and feels past participants pain, but doesn't share any of his/her personal experiences no matter how many requests are made for more info.

Ambebera, what specifically do you NOT like about Landmark? Anything? Bueller?...Bueller?...

Quote
corboy
Could it be that trolling RR.com is a way to get promotion within certain organizations?

That way, if a person gets abused later on in that organization and leaves, they may feel afraid
to come onto RR.com fearing they made themselves unwelcome by loyally trolling here for their
organization--before discovering said organization set them up for abuse.

It's probably the cyber-equivalent of sending the Mormon missionaries into "Indian" territory to induce that siege mentality that puts them into a defensive/aggressive mode and tightens the bonds, cementing the doctrine in place and strengthening the cult hold. Pretty common trick in cult-land, especially amongst those younger and more vulnerable as the Mormon missionaries are. I read an article that said returning missionaries were pretty much sealed for life into the Mormon church. It is very difficult to leave something into which you've recruited others. Even harder to admit you've been a part of something stupid, evil, or unhealthy. (Unless you're a sociopath, of course.)


Ellen

There are definitely Landmark internet propagandists who are using that method.

If anyone searches the internet for Landmark Forum, etc, they come up with all kinds of links criticizing Landmark. So it looks like some Landmark people are taking a new approach to promoting Landmark, not saying Landmark is wonderful, and not denying the criticisms outright.

They generally say something like...I took a few courses, and then get vague.
It seems to be a tactic to try and deal with the internet criticisms of Landmark.
If they hard-sell Landmark, most people see they are just shilling.
If they deny the criticisms, then they also look like a salesperson.

But more advanced salespeople know you NEVER argue with the customer, you AGREE with them. So if the potential customer criticizes your product, you somewhat agree with them, and then try to redirect them, like Judo.

So it does seem to be a newish Landmark technique, of trying more of an indirect soft-sell.
They don't promote it too hard, and don't deny OR admit the criticisms.
What is the goal?

Simply to get some new people to go to the "free seminar" so an expert can deal with them in person.
Do anything to get them into the tent. "Try it for yourself" is their mantra.

Even trained Scientology street recruiters will do this. If you confront them with the criticisms of LRH getting rich from religion, Cult Of Greed, or anything else, the more advanced people won't deny it. They will generally ask you a question, like...where did you hear that? then they will try to disable the criticisms from the back-door.

So more advanced salespeople have sophisticated ways of dealing with "objections to the sale" as they call it. Or, 'Overcoming objections to buy now'.
There are entire courses in that.

Also, there have been some folks who come onto these forums just to practice their sales techniques, to try to deal with the strongest objections to the sale possible.

To be honest, that neutral sounding indirect soft-sell, would work better than the hard sell.
They also market exclusivity..."its not for everyone...its too powerful for most people...only special people can handle it". This plays on people's vanity.

They do every advanced sales technique in the book, on top of everything else.
That's all Werner Erhard was, an advanced salesman, without one shred of integrity.

Landmark is really nothing other than an unpaid sales organization, that sells people a piece of blue-sky.

To whom it may concern:

Amhebera has been banned from this message board.

Oh geez, Rick .... we were just begining to have such a good conversation with him/her/it. :-P

John

Quote
John Fox
Oh geez, Rick .... we were just begining to have such a good conversation with him/her/it. :-P

John

And he/she was bringing so much to the conversation...err discussion.

;)

Thank you, rrmoderator. He/she needed to be more upfront and sharing. I am pleased that all the little games people play are not tolerated on this board for long.

I have to interject here to say that I'm disappointed that amhebera has been banned because of the very recent contributions he's made to the thread about Bayard Hora/Gavin Barnes right next door to this thread. He's recently added some very valuable details to the online picture of an obscure and skimpily documented New Age weekend workshop-based cult, which, at least during the late 1970s through the mid-1980s, attracted lots of est graduates in NYC and Philadelphia and often exceeded Erhard's realm in the aggressive pursuit of new students and its exploitation of volunteers (IMHO, of course). I do understand people's caution here about trolls and unwelcome yammerings from cult apologists, but I thought I'd add my two cents about this ex-member of the same fruity little club I was unfortunately a part of.

I did est and nearly every other LGAT and small GAT I could find back during 1977-1983, but the particular bear trap I was most tightly gripped by was Bayard Hora/Gavin Barnes' Direct Centering. I luckily hooked up with cult counselors after I left this cult and avoided the slightest temptation to go anywhere near the Landmark Forum, so I haven't had anything to offer to this thread until now. I hope that speaking on behalf of ambehera hasn't made me unwelcome here.

Laarree, you are most welcome here.

Not being able to question the decision of authority, or engage in your own critical thinking is one of the classic signs of a cult. Accordingly, it would be a sad thing if this forum developed a "group think" that people must adhere to "or else".

It's a good healthy thing that you are able to raise and discuss this issue. A valuable contribution.

John

John Fox, your reply is appreciated. I'm just being cautious, as I am relatively a newbie here.

FWIW, I participated in several exit counselings years ago and even spoke at a couple of counter-cult conferences (anyone remember the original CAN?). I also knew several people who were vociferous critics of est, the Hunger Project and the Forum, and who counseled many people out of these Erhard-ian creations and other LGATs. This was all back during the period 1983-c.1991, so I've got a bit of a history with the world of counter-cult activism.