tip for landmark
Posted by:
Acid Reindeer
()
Date: September 20, 2004 01:57AM
Quote
I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm honestly not sure what you're saying. Do you feel people should not do Landmark? Or that, if they're aware and sophisticated, they should, because they can get something out of it?
[i:9cd0436fc2]digression on my background with est and Landmark[/i:9cd0436fc2]
I have not done the training.
one (possibly two... I have not asked my father if he took Landmark or est... for all I know, his second wife and my step-brother have done it, I don't know) of my parents has done Landmark. my sister has done Landmark. two of my uncles (on opposite sides of the family) did est and stayed with and worked with est and its sucessor organizations from 1975 to 1995. a few years ago he persuaded his wife to take Landmark.
a family who knew my famly from years ago took est. some people I met earlier this year also took Landmark.
the people who seem to have gained the most from it (my uncle's wife and the family) had the most going for them before they went in.
conversely it had an effect on my sister which by the end terrified me. (and when I say terrified, I mean terrified.) she took the course earlier this year without teling me beforehand as she knew that I would have tried to warn her away. (in spite of which her change still shocked me.) Landmark had many good effects on her. she did seem more awake or alive than she had for as long as I could remember and I can't and won't ignore the fact. she did sound a little more spacey but more open, more rational. by the time that she had comopleted the course she demonstrated unquestioning loyalty and faith in LEC to an extent which I would not even have believed. she tried to use my concern for her as a way to convince me to go to her graduation event. matters got personally worse between us later after my fear had ebbed.
my uncle, as I said, took est in 1975 and hung around for twenty years. let me just say that a large part of my aversion to est and Landmark comes about via his actions towards me over the years. (it would help if I had any clear memory of him pre-1975. most or all of my memories of him come from post-1975.)
I also have a late '70's memory of a super-fascist counsellor sort of some description doing mind games on a group of me and other "emotionally disturbed children". physically it did not take place in an est-like setting, however I do not totally discount the possiblity that I may have gotten enrolled in "est for kids" or something. the facilitator did without doubt make use of LGAT pressure tactics.
earlier this year I got involved in a struggle with my uncle, his wife and my sister (and to an extent, my mother and other uncle) every one of whom have taken Landmark. they opposed a course of action on the grounds that I might put myself in danger.
they hoped to either force me or persaude me to change my mind and
this very much flavored my opinion of LEC.
in addition the topics of thought reform and persuasion have fascinated me since forever.
[i:9cd0436fc2]my main points[/i:9cd0436fc2]
I do not think that anyone "should" or "should not" do LEC. I do not like all-or-nothing statements of that sort. I do value knowledge and value the spread of knowledge among as widely and broadly as possible.
if you do take the training you will (IMHO) reward the wicked.
est did not and Landmark (again IMHO) does not teach morals.Landmark, like any relevatory experience,it can reveal hidden parts of a person to the light, parts which often hold power, which they may or may not use wisely.
apart from which, it can suck you in and make you a tool.
I feel tired now. so I will go back and make a second reply later.
tip for landmark
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: September 20, 2004 02:05PM
Quote
hossgal
for standing up for any LEC grad who might have found something positive in the Forum. Even the Devil works hard -- nothing is completely evil!]
I don't know why people have such a hard time with this. Of course they have to offer SOMETHING "positive." What fisherman would catch anything without baiting his hook?
Past of the program involves some basic, common-sense, psychotherapeutic-type information. Any propagandist hopes that because part of their message is true that you will assume the rest of it is. Or that people will believe that because there is some beneficial part of the content, that the rest of the program is somehow worthwhile. Just the same old tricks; they work so well.
Why does it need to be "completely evil" to be disqualified? Even if only 10% of it is evil, would you accept those odds in a surgeon, airline pilot, or teacher of your children, or restaurant?
How were you "Gaslighted?" Have you written about that on some other thread?
Also, were you aware that the "Fear Excercise" was adopted from scientology and can be extremely dangerous from some people who are susceptible to trance or have had some traumatic experience?
Have you read here from some of the insiders that there are indeed "plants" in the audience? Was there someone in your group who stood up and argued with the "trainer" and was asked to leave or kicked out?
Can you describe how "things got unpleasant" for you? What tactics did they use to make you feel this way?
Thanks for your post.
Ellen
tip for landmark
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: September 20, 2004 09:34PM
the reason a person can be both pro and con for landmark
is because their way of thinking has been modified.
i have listened to people tell me that landmark has destroyed
families and ruined peoples lives and then in the next
moment tell me that landmark was a good thing for them.
as long as u are not the one that was ruined then landmark
is wonderful. very strange attitude and very common
amoungst landmark grads.
remember that through landmark people can have different
realities. none of it makes sense , till dig deeper and find
it actually does .
its all about landmark.
is because their way of thinking has been modified.
i have listened to people tell me that landmark has destroyed
families and ruined peoples lives and then in the next
moment tell me that landmark was a good thing for them.
as long as u are not the one that was ruined then landmark
is wonderful. very strange attitude and very common
amoungst landmark grads.
remember that through landmark people can have different
realities. none of it makes sense , till dig deeper and find
it actually does .
its all about landmark.
tip for landmark
Posted by:
glam
()
Date: September 20, 2004 09:53PM
Hi, Acid Reindeer, and thanks for your response to my questions and for sharing all this.
This sounds similar to what happened to my friend, except for the parts about sounding more rational -- he, being a very rational person to begin with, sounded LESS rational -- and it having many good effects. Seeming more awake or alive may actually be the effects of a euphoria, or high, brought on by a trance state. In this state people are highly suggestible, which is quite dangerous. Again, since my friend was a normally jovial person before LEC, to me this false high looked like mania. It was indeed horrifying.
Of course, I can't be sure whether you were subjected to "est for kids," but rest assured that est/Landmark DOES offer such courses, and encourages adults to enroll their kids. I've heard these kid's courses are shorter and less harsh than the adult courses. So this could very well be what you were put through.
What was the course of action? Why did they feel you'd be in danger?
It's possible that you see the effects of est on your uncle as being "positive" because you don't remember what he was like before est. (Also, he probably TELLS you the effects were positive, just as my friend tells me). In your sister's case, you've witnessed the fast and frightening changes it brings about firsthand. Since you knew her before, you see the changes after quite clearly.
Have you read the info on this site about what actually occurs in persuasive groups? I've heard Lifespring was a lot like est. Here's a psychologists' look at the initial Lifespring training:
[www.culteducation.com]
I found this very eye-opening. And scary.
Thanks again for your post.
Glam
Quote
it had an effect on my sister which by the end terrified me. (and when I say terrified, I mean terrified.) she took the course earlier this year without teling me beforehand as she knew that I would have tried to warn her away. (in spite of which her change still shocked me.) Landmark had many good effects on her. she did seem more awake or alive than she had for as long as I could remember and I can't and won't ignore the fact. she did sound a little more spacey but more open, more rational. by the time that she had comopleted the course she demonstrated unquestioning loyalty and faith in LEC to an extent which I would not even have believed. she tried to use my concern for her as a way to convince me to go to her graduation event. matters got personally worse between us later after my fear had ebbed.
This sounds similar to what happened to my friend, except for the parts about sounding more rational -- he, being a very rational person to begin with, sounded LESS rational -- and it having many good effects. Seeming more awake or alive may actually be the effects of a euphoria, or high, brought on by a trance state. In this state people are highly suggestible, which is quite dangerous. Again, since my friend was a normally jovial person before LEC, to me this false high looked like mania. It was indeed horrifying.
Quote
I also have a late '70's memory of a super-fascist counsellor sort of some description doing mind games on a group of me and other "emotionally disturbed children". physically it did not take place in an est-like setting, however I do not totally discount the possiblity that I may have gotten enrolled in "est for kids" or something. the facilitator did without doubt make use of LGAT pressure tactics.
Of course, I can't be sure whether you were subjected to "est for kids," but rest assured that est/Landmark DOES offer such courses, and encourages adults to enroll their kids. I've heard these kid's courses are shorter and less harsh than the adult courses. So this could very well be what you were put through.
Quote
earlier this year I got involved in a struggle with my uncle, his wife and my sister (and to an extent, my mother and other uncle) every one of whom have taken Landmark. they opposed a course of action on the grounds that I might put myself in danger.
What was the course of action? Why did they feel you'd be in danger?
Quote
my uncle, as I said, took est in 1975 and hung around for twenty years. let me just say that a large part of my aversion to est and Landmark comes about via his actions towards me over the years. (it would help if I had any clear memory of him pre-1975. most or all of my memories of him come from post-1975.)
It's possible that you see the effects of est on your uncle as being "positive" because you don't remember what he was like before est. (Also, he probably TELLS you the effects were positive, just as my friend tells me). In your sister's case, you've witnessed the fast and frightening changes it brings about firsthand. Since you knew her before, you see the changes after quite clearly.
Have you read the info on this site about what actually occurs in persuasive groups? I've heard Lifespring was a lot like est. Here's a psychologists' look at the initial Lifespring training:
[www.culteducation.com]
I found this very eye-opening. And scary.
Thanks again for your post.
Glam
tip for landmark
Posted by:
Acid Reindeer
()
Date: September 21, 2004 04:48AM
Quote
Seeming more awake or alive may actually be the effects of a euphoria, or high, brought on by a trance state. In this state people are highly suggestible, which is quite dangerous. Again, since my friend was a normally jovial person before LEC, to me this false high looked like mania. It was indeed horrifying.
all points on a continuum, to me.
I view everday sanity as a state between insanity and something better. on which points I agree with the mystics.
(nor do I differientiate between the true or false kind.)
I do agree that handling a trance state can require tools for example the ones enabling you to feel both high and not suggestible. it would not surprise me if LEC does not withhold those tools on purpose, in order to rope in more graduates for courses. or perhaps they do not know about these tools themselves.
Quote
Of course, I can't be sure whether you were subjected to "est for kids," but rest assured that est/Landmark DOES offer such courses, and encourages adults to enroll their kids. I've heard these kid's courses are shorter and less harsh than the adult courses. So this could very well be what you were put through.
yes. I knew that they had courses for kids. as far as whatever I went through I remember just that I took it for one day and hated it so much my mother did not bring me back. (or rather, some documents I have say as much.) if I felt like it could look through those documents to see if I can find more. I don't feel it today.
QuoteQuote
earlier this year I got involved in a struggle with my uncle, his wife and my sister (and to an extent, my mother and other uncle) every one of whom have taken Landmark. they opposed a course of action on the grounds that I might put myself in danger.
What was the course of action? Why did they feel you'd be in danger?
I would like to keep that vague.
Quote
It's possible that you see the effects of est on your uncle as being "positive" because you don't remember what he was like before est.
most (or all) of my memories of him date from after he took est.
a number of times (post-est and post-Landmark) he hurt me very badly emotionally and often acted strange and unknowable and I did not trust him. I could go on and on about it. this happened after he took est, not before.
so, no, you won't hear me raving about the great effect est had on him.
Quote
Have you read the info on this site about what actually occurs in persuasive groups?
yes and I have read all about thought reform and persuasive techniques
since the '80's or before.
apart from the experience I mentioned earlier I also went through secular and religious school and a mental institution where I witnessed and experienced thought reform as practiced on me.
at the mental institution to deal with my rebelliousness they put me in a bare cell in order to tame me. after about a week of sitting the room I broke down totally, screamed and cried and crawled on the ground. (William Sargent calls this the "total collapse phase".)
after breaking up/down I would do whatever they asked of me if they would let me out of the room. the day after I broke down they put me back in my own room.
tip for landmark
Posted by:
hossgal
()
Date: September 21, 2004 08:02AM
Thanks for your response. I covered the gaslighting some months ago in the "manipulating the environment" thread, I think.
I'll briefly rehash it and the other junk that convinced me to toss in the towel after the first six follow-up seminars.
The first night, we were allowed 90 minutes to get dinner. We were dismissed at 6:05 PM, so would be due back by 7:35. I was right next to the woman who announced this and heard it very clearly. And, I've been able to tell time and add since I was a wee child. Though my dinner partner (probably a plant) did her best to delay our return, we walked back into the meeting room at 7:33. My watch said so, as did the Landmark clock on the wall. (It could've been lying...)
The group leader ranted and raved for quite some time after the participants had seated themselves. Yes, some were late, but not "fashionably late" by any means. "We" were accused of not "being our word" and pretty much told "we" were pond scum for this transgression. Several people around me agreed we were told to return at 7:35, not 7:25, as our leader insisted, but by the next day, these same persons told me I was the mistaken one. I'm not that stupid, and said so. This may have been when I was tagged a potential "troublemaker", though I made a point not to bring attention to myself, particularly after the "gaslighting" of Friday night. I recognized it for the manipulation it was, though I didn't know the technique was called "gaslighting". I learned that here from Corboy.
And yes, I also learned from reading these threads, that members of the group can indeed be "plants", that the physical environment is manipulated, and that dissention is punished by public humiliation. (Thanks, got enough of that in Catholic elementary school.) Also, that attempts at trance induction, the use of sleep deprivation and all that are part of the "technology". God, how I hate the use of that term now! Don't like to hear talk of "possibilities", "Getting off it", "That's your racket" or any of that crap now. I think they (LE, in spite of themselves) pretty well "disindoctrinated" me. Their use of language struck me right away as troubling and I never tried to incorporate it into my own lexicon. To their chagrin. Devotees kept trying to "correct" my use of terms. ICK!
So, to Patrick-Darcy, who thinks we all got our thought processes altered through LE, all I can say is NOPE! It doesn't happen to everyone, and it doesn't influence all people in the same way. Some swallow it hook, line and sinker, becoming LE devotees, others go away wondering what the Hell it was all about, still others leave feeling hoodwinked.
Back to the "unpleasantness". It became clear to the Powers that Be in LE that I wasn't "cooperating". I did have an episode very shortly after the Forum weekend, when I trailed off my andi-depressants. I'm only mildly depressed, but this was still a big mistake, especially coming off the exhaustion of the weekend, dealing with the afterglow, all that. I overreacted to an incident in my condo building, tried to describe it to my seminar mates as a "breakdown" (as opposed to a "breakthrough") and got chewed out for this. I left feeling as suicidal as I've ever felt. Scarey; and the best reason I can think of to leave LGATs alone. They are not professionals and cannot recognize when someone is in crisis.
Through the weeks of seminars, I questioned the "hard sell" that LE expects of its grads, but denies to your face. Gaslighting again. I know when I'm being lied to. I confronted our seminar leader about this one night and she and I had a real "throw-down". I recall I also questioned their (LE's) willingness to admit people with mental health issues, in spite of their protests to the contrary. I stared her down for what seemed an eternity. It was like staring into the eyes of a predator. (I did not know these people practice this "intimidation stare" until much later.) I never returned, and asked to be removed from their call list.
That's in in a (big) nutshell.
I'll briefly rehash it and the other junk that convinced me to toss in the towel after the first six follow-up seminars.
The first night, we were allowed 90 minutes to get dinner. We were dismissed at 6:05 PM, so would be due back by 7:35. I was right next to the woman who announced this and heard it very clearly. And, I've been able to tell time and add since I was a wee child. Though my dinner partner (probably a plant) did her best to delay our return, we walked back into the meeting room at 7:33. My watch said so, as did the Landmark clock on the wall. (It could've been lying...)
The group leader ranted and raved for quite some time after the participants had seated themselves. Yes, some were late, but not "fashionably late" by any means. "We" were accused of not "being our word" and pretty much told "we" were pond scum for this transgression. Several people around me agreed we were told to return at 7:35, not 7:25, as our leader insisted, but by the next day, these same persons told me I was the mistaken one. I'm not that stupid, and said so. This may have been when I was tagged a potential "troublemaker", though I made a point not to bring attention to myself, particularly after the "gaslighting" of Friday night. I recognized it for the manipulation it was, though I didn't know the technique was called "gaslighting". I learned that here from Corboy.
And yes, I also learned from reading these threads, that members of the group can indeed be "plants", that the physical environment is manipulated, and that dissention is punished by public humiliation. (Thanks, got enough of that in Catholic elementary school.) Also, that attempts at trance induction, the use of sleep deprivation and all that are part of the "technology". God, how I hate the use of that term now! Don't like to hear talk of "possibilities", "Getting off it", "That's your racket" or any of that crap now. I think they (LE, in spite of themselves) pretty well "disindoctrinated" me. Their use of language struck me right away as troubling and I never tried to incorporate it into my own lexicon. To their chagrin. Devotees kept trying to "correct" my use of terms. ICK!
So, to Patrick-Darcy, who thinks we all got our thought processes altered through LE, all I can say is NOPE! It doesn't happen to everyone, and it doesn't influence all people in the same way. Some swallow it hook, line and sinker, becoming LE devotees, others go away wondering what the Hell it was all about, still others leave feeling hoodwinked.
Back to the "unpleasantness". It became clear to the Powers that Be in LE that I wasn't "cooperating". I did have an episode very shortly after the Forum weekend, when I trailed off my andi-depressants. I'm only mildly depressed, but this was still a big mistake, especially coming off the exhaustion of the weekend, dealing with the afterglow, all that. I overreacted to an incident in my condo building, tried to describe it to my seminar mates as a "breakdown" (as opposed to a "breakthrough") and got chewed out for this. I left feeling as suicidal as I've ever felt. Scarey; and the best reason I can think of to leave LGATs alone. They are not professionals and cannot recognize when someone is in crisis.
Through the weeks of seminars, I questioned the "hard sell" that LE expects of its grads, but denies to your face. Gaslighting again. I know when I'm being lied to. I confronted our seminar leader about this one night and she and I had a real "throw-down". I recall I also questioned their (LE's) willingness to admit people with mental health issues, in spite of their protests to the contrary. I stared her down for what seemed an eternity. It was like staring into the eyes of a predator. (I did not know these people practice this "intimidation stare" until much later.) I never returned, and asked to be removed from their call list.
That's in in a (big) nutshell.
tip for landmark
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: September 22, 2004 11:10AM
i got a question for u.
landmark empowers people in what used to be called the
danger process now called the empowerment process.
in the forum that i took jinnendrah jain was the forum
leader. during the empowerment process while the
people where wailing and screaming and crying, he
spoke into his microphone while the people were completely
unaware of anything other than their terror state of mind
and baptized the people with a psycholocial baptism
in excrement.
he kept using the s word over and over and over.
does it mean anthing to to U ?
landmark empowers people in what used to be called the
danger process now called the empowerment process.
in the forum that i took jinnendrah jain was the forum
leader. during the empowerment process while the
people where wailing and screaming and crying, he
spoke into his microphone while the people were completely
unaware of anything other than their terror state of mind
and baptized the people with a psycholocial baptism
in excrement.
he kept using the s word over and over and over.
does it mean anthing to to U ?
tip for landmark
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: September 22, 2004 10:29PM
Quote
hossgal
That's in in a (big) nutshell.
Hi hossgal,
So how did your psychiatrist react when you told him about your experience? There are lots of psychiatrists and psychologists who have never heard of these groups, know nothing about the manipulation or mind control, or think they are relatively benign. I'm wondering how old he(she) is and how it is that he missed all this. The "psychotherapy cults" induce mental illnesses in people who have no prior history. In addition to those who are directly involved, there is all the "fallout;" busted marriages, abandoned jobs or careers, people who walk away from their families, those who become slavishly devoted to the group, or others who merely pester and/or alienate everyone they know. How surprised were you to find out that Landmark is a scam? How long did it take you to find this group?
Ellen
tip for landmark
Posted by:
hossgal
()
Date: September 22, 2004 11:06PM
To Patrick-Darcy:
No, the "fear" exercise we were subjected to had no references to excrement. I felt no fear, no apprehensions about my neighbors or anything else. I thought it was a stupid exercise and the people who reacted so "over the top" were either "plants' or needed more (and better) help than any LGAT could provide. If the exercise was meant to "empower" me, well, I guess I'm empowered enough, 'cuz I walked into that Forum feeling like THEY should fear ME!
The description of your experience doesn't mean a thing to me. What, if any, was your point?
To Ellen:
My psychiatrist (he's probably in his mid-40's) seemed most interested in whatever positives I may have derived from the experience. Maybe he was afraid I'd come after him for malpractice or something. It's obvious he knew little or nothing about LE prior to this. I told him about the "breakdown" incident and the rest, and how dangerous this could be. I wanted to impress on him that he shouldn't be so casual about signing releases for LE. He did see the horrid manipulations that happen when "leaders" try to convince a participant that what they know to be true is in fact NOT true. (As in, "You told us to return by 7:35" "No I didn't". "You are using hard-sell tactics". "No we're not".) Another one of the "good" things I got out of the LE Forum is, my BS detection system is much better now!
As soon as I heard it was an extension of EST, I became apprehensive. I was certain it was all a big Multi-Level Marketing scheme by Sunday, only in a real MLM, there's at least the idea that the more folks you enroll, the more money you make. LE hooks people on some silly idea of altruism -- that by enrolling people in Landmark you're going to save humanity or something. What a load! Didn't work for me, because I'm not that motivated to save the world. It survives or it doesn't. I caught flack for that attitude, too, from the LE's. My shrink laughed!
The Tuesday night graduation and the following weekly seminars were nothing more than recruitment pep rallies. The longer I stuck with Landmark (which wasn't long, in the grand scheme...) the smarmier it got. I did the Forum in March, and can't recall exactly when I found this site, but it wasn't long after the staring match with the seminar leader. I was so angry after that, I started digging around on the 'net.
And here I am.
No, the "fear" exercise we were subjected to had no references to excrement. I felt no fear, no apprehensions about my neighbors or anything else. I thought it was a stupid exercise and the people who reacted so "over the top" were either "plants' or needed more (and better) help than any LGAT could provide. If the exercise was meant to "empower" me, well, I guess I'm empowered enough, 'cuz I walked into that Forum feeling like THEY should fear ME!
The description of your experience doesn't mean a thing to me. What, if any, was your point?
To Ellen:
My psychiatrist (he's probably in his mid-40's) seemed most interested in whatever positives I may have derived from the experience. Maybe he was afraid I'd come after him for malpractice or something. It's obvious he knew little or nothing about LE prior to this. I told him about the "breakdown" incident and the rest, and how dangerous this could be. I wanted to impress on him that he shouldn't be so casual about signing releases for LE. He did see the horrid manipulations that happen when "leaders" try to convince a participant that what they know to be true is in fact NOT true. (As in, "You told us to return by 7:35" "No I didn't". "You are using hard-sell tactics". "No we're not".) Another one of the "good" things I got out of the LE Forum is, my BS detection system is much better now!
As soon as I heard it was an extension of EST, I became apprehensive. I was certain it was all a big Multi-Level Marketing scheme by Sunday, only in a real MLM, there's at least the idea that the more folks you enroll, the more money you make. LE hooks people on some silly idea of altruism -- that by enrolling people in Landmark you're going to save humanity or something. What a load! Didn't work for me, because I'm not that motivated to save the world. It survives or it doesn't. I caught flack for that attitude, too, from the LE's. My shrink laughed!
The Tuesday night graduation and the following weekly seminars were nothing more than recruitment pep rallies. The longer I stuck with Landmark (which wasn't long, in the grand scheme...) the smarmier it got. I did the Forum in March, and can't recall exactly when I found this site, but it wasn't long after the staring match with the seminar leader. I was so angry after that, I started digging around on the 'net.
And here I am.
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