It seems to me that some good Buddhist or Advaita philosophy has been badly distorted and wed to a poorly conceived meditation technique in the name of goals that are completely contrary to what the philosophy is for. I don't know about the Sedona Method but I do know about Crane and in my opinion he is a smarmy robot that is playing with something he doesn't really understand and creating a lot of suffering as a result.

Quote
Lonnie49
Does anybody know anything about either The Sedona Method or The Release Technique?
There are both LGAT style groups influenced by Lester Levenson who died in 1994, whom originally presented the material back in the 1950s. This is a technique that has to do with releasing emotions. You can either learn this in a group setting, or listening to a series of tapes in a home study course. The Sedona Method as presented by Hale Dwoskin is the better known of the two, but from what I’ve heard, The Release Technique as presented by Larry Crane is really more closer to what Lester taught. The reason The Sedona Method is better known is because Dwoskin marketed it better. I’ve yet to hear anything really bad about either group. I would like some feedback if possible.

Also, I wonder if there are LGAT groups that are any good at all?


[www.sedona.com]

[www.releasetechnique.com]

My wife did the course. Yes, it is effective if you have the good sense to apply what you learn. I don't know about Hale, met the guy a few years ago and was not impressed but Lester certainly was a unique individual who had a lot of insights into the human condition. My wife was actually employed by Lester in an effort to start a stress release program in Sedona back in 1991.

It's somewhat puzzling to me that Human Potential movements are receiving so much scrutiny on this forum. Sure, there are false gurus which is the case in any movement, but the real deal are those who seek to give their students the skills to dispense with any need for outside help. In that respect such programs are the exact opposite of religions or Freudian therapies which, in effect, create a long term dependence.

I don't mean to come here and try to defend any particular group, movement etc. but truly, before one starts in beating the drums against things they should look into the truth and not just follow the negative line of thinking that the anti this and that crowd utter. In other words, this kind of thing can, itself, become a cult. Don't be a follower of anyone. Use your intelligence to investigate and on the way, take all the bad press with a grain of salt. These things cannot easily be evaluated from the outside.

JimmyC:

You seem to be here as nothing mroe than an apologist.

In another post elsewhere on this message you dismiss criticism of a notorious cult leader "Osho" aka Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

See [forum.culteducation.com]

But historically Rajneesh was forced to leave the US, after a criminal investigation of his Oregon compound ended in arrests.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Just because something is not your "experience" doesn't mean much objectively, e.g. you "experience" with Osho/Rajneesh.

The so-called "human potential movement" is strewn with con men and self-proclaimed gurus that have caused quite a bit of damage. And it remains an unregulated industry.

See [www.culteducation.com]

People have died at retreats, such as the recent deaths at a James A. Ray retreat in Sedona.

Sedona sadly has become something of a magnet for phony gurus and cults.

And it's the money not the supposed "vortex" activity, which apparently attracts them.

See [www.culteducation.com]

"Baloney Detection Kit"

From "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a candle in the dark" Ballantine Books 1997

October 18, 2005

By Carl Sagan

Suggested tools for testing arguments and detecting fallacious:

* Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts
* Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
* Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").
* Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea.
* Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.
* Quantify, wherever possible.
* If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.
* "Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.
* Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, is it testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?

Additional issues

* Conduct control experiments - especially "double blind" experiments where the person taking measurements is not aware of the test and control subjects.
* Check for confounding factors - separate the variables.

Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric

* Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.
* Argument from "authority".
* Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavorable" decision).
* Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).
* Special pleading (typically referring to god's will).
* Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
* Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses).
* Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).
* Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!)
* Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not "proved").
* Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.
* Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect.
* Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?).
* Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).
* Short-term vs.. long-term - a subset of excluded middle ("why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?").
* Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile).
* Confusion of correlation and causation.
* Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..
* Suppressed evidence or half-truths.
* Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as "police action" to get around limitations on Presidential powers. "An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions, which under old names have become odious to the public"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2010 11:00PM by rrmoderator.

Quote

It's somewhat puzzling to me that Human Potential movements are receiving so much scrutiny on this forum.

That is what this forum is for--scrutiny.

And the purpose of the message board and website archives is to collect information, long term, so that scholars and journalists will have the full history of a group and its ideology and track changes made by using archived info that is preserved in searchable form.

We dont re-invent the past to suit present purposes.

The ability to remember history in coherant narrative form is also part of our human potential.

The now is connected to the past and does not exist apart from past history.

No human should be FOLLOWED. Lester Levenson is considered an American master but refused to even be called a teacher. Don't confuse him with his students or assistants capitalizing on his original work. Go to YouTube and hear what seems to be hundreds of hours of his talks if wishing to know the man. He started giving lessons for free and later charged a nominal fee to keep people serious, as far as I know, because he made his money in real estate. He was also an engineer and physicist, not a marketeer. Allusions to wealth and material success deal with testing your own spiritual growth, which is ego-elimination, in the world out there according to Lester. He was not selling material success. When you rid your subconscious of tje garbage accumulated in this life you become healthier and stronger. You are more capable of succeeding at what you do or overcoming disease. It is based in meditation and he used Hindu terms to describe the different stages of development. He often referred to Christ and mystics like Ramana Maharshi. He said that when self-realized you would not need material things nor be full of worldly ambitions. The end is never the material. It is in finding your true self, profound universal love. But he feels it important to prove mastery over the world by succeeding in life and not losing. That is a far cry from focusing on going after material things. He settled in Arizona to live a quiet life away from it all. Know your sources as he knew his.

Spring is busting out all over, and so are new forum trolls!

Lester Levenson is considered an American con man. There's enough crap to watch on YouTube without watching his videos.

Better yet, watch something worthwhile:

[www.youtube.com]

I know, I know, ignore the trolls. But sometimes they're just so cute I can't resist poking them in the tummy.

Quote
truebut
No human should be FOLLOWED. Lester Levenson is considered an American master but refused to even be called a teacher. Don't confuse him with his students or assistants capitalizing on his original work. Go to YouTube and hear what seems to be hundreds of hours of his talks if wishing to know the man. He started giving lessons for free and later charged a nominal fee to keep people serious, as far as I know, because he made his money in real estate. He was also an engineer and physicist, not a marketeer. Allusions to wealth and material success deal with testing your own spiritual growth, which is ego-elimination, in the world out there according to Lester. He was not selling material success. When you rid your subconscious of tje garbage accumulated in this life you become healthier and stronger. You are more capable of succeeding at what you do or overcoming disease. It is based in meditation and he used Hindu terms to describe the different stages of development. He often referred to Christ and mystics like Ramana Maharshi. He said that when self-realized you would not need material things nor be full of worldly ambitions. The end is never the material. It is in finding your true self, profound universal love. But he feels it important to prove mastery over the world by succeeding in life and not losing. That is a far cry from focusing on going after material things. He settled in Arizona to live a quiet life away from it all. Know your sources as he knew his.

The Sedona method is a tool, in my view, which does not replace professional help. Personally, I have found it helpful, as have others for "processing" emotions/feelings. I have also had no use for "advanced 7 day seminars" "weekend retreats" and given up on the quest of owning a "$400 course." I came across the method after years spent frustrated, trying to get something that I couldn't get. While I was using the method regularly, I got what I had wanted, but it wasn't at all what I thought it would be like, and it actually became quite a burden. I learned valuable life lessons, and moved on with life. I keep the technique around (mentally) as a useful tool. I still use it now and then, when I remember to.

I'm not hootless, imperterbable, sociopathic, but maybe a little lazy, on my weekends.

In my experience, you can't release guilt, shame, or laziness ("apathy"). Guilt usually comes about because you're doing something awful, which you probably should stop doing. And how can you release being lazy? That's like watering water. It's more effective to get up and go for a walk.

In this situation I think it's easy to get the encyclopedias mixed up with the door to door encyclopedia salesman with all the grease in his hair.

Again, the way I see it:
Basic Sedona Method = Useful Tool
People Selling It = Questionable.

Of course I'm probably preaching to the (ex)choir here. But enough about me. If you don't like the Sedona method, don't use it.

I do not offer professional advice, nor do I endorse or oppose the technique. I am defending the truth as I understand it and offering a summary of my personal experiences.

Anecdotal claims like "it works for me!" are the primary technique of upselling these types of products.

The techniques are not neutral. They are loaded, biased, and dishonest.

The Sedona Method Technique in designed NOT to work as advertised. Because when it doesn't work as promised, then people wonder why. They buy another book, a CD, a DVD.
They then get upsold, come to a Sedona seminar, and learn how to REALLY do it.
The harder they try, the worse it gets.

Its the same tactic used by Byron Katie and The Work, or TM. They say the "technique" is what it is. But it isn't.
Its a trick, a bait and switch.

Its like a fisherman dangling a lure with bait, and saying, hey come and take a bite little fishes! Its just a free worm.
The fishes bite in, and the hook goes in, and they get reeled in.

That's how it works.

So each time you see the anecdote..."hey the Sedona Method works for me!"...that is a little worm being dangled on the concealed barbed one-way hook, trolling the ocean looking for another little fish to come and take a bite.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2010 03:49AM by The Anticult.

There is another method that follows James Ray's seven fundamental principles of group indoctrination. [forum.culteducation.com]

The Sedona Method and Release Technique upselling scam.

They pitch you can End Suffering, like Byron Katie does.
A Purpose
A Vision

They upsell you to Lester Levinson, Larry Crane, and other salesmen and scam-artists.
A Mentor

They sell the Sedona Method bait & switch.
A Practice

When it doesn't work as advertised, they upsell you to a Coach, who upsells you to the Sedona Group LGAT's and Retreats, to extract as much money from you as possible.
A Coach
A Group
A Retreat

The key to all of this of course, is to make sure the Practice does NOT work as advertised, as if it did work, then you would put yourself out of the Guru business.
The Practice has to SOUND like it could work, with lots of Testimonials, but does NOT work, but makes the person blame themselves for not 'releasing' hard enough, and to buy more Coaching and Seminars. Repeat until dead broke.

So the key is to have a Practice that doesn't work, of course.

Hello all!

Congrats for taking part in a thread some 6 years old now!

I stumbled on this forum when 'seeking' for some background info on the Sedona Method and its leadership. Thank you all for helping.

Basically I wanted to find out if all the stuff I had been hearing about Lester and his 'enlightenment' were true under a more critical light. And I am happy to say that I got a lot more out of this thread than expected.

After reading 15+ some pages of posts (I skipped a few years and hope I didn't miss anything vital) a general theme in regards to the method has started to appear:

1) the techniques seem to help (even some of the most skeptical of people), but
2) buying deeply into the the whole 'groupie' thing has hurt many, and
3) the leadership (mostly Larry and maybe Lester) are mostly likely quacks

For this info I am grateful.

My own story:

I got wind of the method via a blog site, torrented it (trying to be honest here), and kind of bought into it from the start...

Prior to that, I had just gotten out of a most painful business experience in which I nearly went insane. Waking up nearly every morning doing statistical financial equations in my brain for months, along with harboring deep anger and blame toward the people I had been dealing with for over a year, plus all of the self-esteem issues that come from that sort of stuff was, and still kind of is, my baggage.

Rational non-new-agey people would tell me, "Just let it go. You are just making it worse. Can't you just not think about it?"

Needless to say, by the fact that I was driven mad by the situation, I couldn't. Finally, at the end of my rope, I cut myself off, and laid in bed for two weeks, where I 'processed' what had happened to me. It was then I started listening to the Sedona Method. With its help, I have found much relief.

In brief, and after doing it for some while now, I now view it simply as a practical tool for dealing with stuck emotions and unnecessary desires.

Here are the steps as I see them:
1) feel the emotion fully, in addition to separating yourself from it
2) uncover and any underlying desires that may be supporting these emotions
3) let go of both the emotion and the desires

Note the emphasis on desires.

A la Tao Te Ching: "knowing contentment, one is rich" and the Bible via "the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want", it is my belief that this 'acceptance of what is' is what the method tries to give practical steps to but in a more snazzy NLP-type fashion.

Any 'power' it may hold comes only from the same age-old power that learning this valuable lesson has, plus maybe the convenience of using of an easy to grasp system.

Simple example: I have been living in China for the past few years now. Back in America nearly everyone had a car, access to washing machine and dryer, and a computer. This was the standard. Here the standard is a cell phone, a bike, and an electric water heater for showering, if you are lucky.

What I am trying to say is that here I am 'happy' if I have a cell phone, in America I am 'happy' if I have a car, and if I lived in 2000BCE I would be very happy to have a metal tool.

This, in brief is what I think the Sedona Method is all about. A sort of dumbed down re-packaged Taoist/Christian/Wherever-religious-or-philosophical-system way of accepting what is and learning to let go of crappy illusions that get in the way of that.

BUT this of course is to say nothing what-so-ever about all the kooky guru stuff surrounding Sedona, Arizona and its inhabitants, OR all the man-worshiping nut-cases heading up the rear.

And because of all you friendly posters out there, I am now a little bit more weary of 'the method' and will be careful to steer clear of any of it's more shadier elements, even if I do continue to 'let go' every once in a while.