I have to speak after reading all the comments. I was very sad to see the new Releasetechnique commercial on You Tube. There is a person claiming to have not been sick in 3 years. That person had a heart stint implanted a year ago. Larry Crane is well aware of this. How can you trust a teacher who lies to as many people as they can just to rope them in?
There were many good things I learned from the technique. The best is just the technique itself. I think it's the visualization that differs from other self help programs. Seeing a hurtful or negative emotion actually leave your body really helps to make it go. Sometimes you have to do it over and over but it then it's gone. It makes a difference. The rest of it, you can learn from Buddhism, Hindus, or many New Age teachers and even Christian teachers. It's also true it becomes a little cult like or groupy like. Some of the people go to every seminar and buy anything and everything. I think it is sad to believe you have to pay somebody to teach you how to live.
They, both Larry and Hale teach so many good things, they should also teach this:
[b:b40fc2681d]

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Whole and Total Practice
By Jack Kornfield, Living Dharma
The precepts are enormously powerful. For instance, not to tell an untruth in any circumstance, alone could be one's whole and total practice. With regard to other beings, it means not misrepresenting anything, being totally mindful and aware of just what is being said and making it as direct and clear a reflection of the truth as one can perceive.... To carry this precept even further, if one practices the precept of truthfulness within oneself as well, not fooling oneself, not trying to look at things other than as they really are, seeing things mindfully, with full consciousness and awareness, this one precept becomes the whole and entire practice of Buddhism. Not only of Buddhism, but in fact of all religions. As soon as one becomes totally honest, automatically the wisdom of unselfishness arises. One becomes loving in a natural way because one is no longer trying to get or be something other than what is already true. --Jack Kornfield, Living Dharma

[/b:b40fc2681d]

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George
I have to speak after reading all the comments. I was very sad to see the new Releasetechnique commercial on You Tube. There is a person claiming to have not been sick in 3 years. That person had a heart stint implanted a year ago. Larry Crane is well aware of this. How can you trust a teacher who lies to as many people as they can just to rope them in?

Obviously Crane can't be trusted. It is disgusting that he lies to people with physical problems and gives them false hope in order to make a buck.

I am wondering why the person making the claim would say this as well.

Also, no negative comments about RT can be posted on youtube because Crane reserves the right to approve them first. My comments definitely didn't make the cut.

I hope you have not been harmed by RT George. I believe you when you say that it makes a difference, I'm just not so sure it is a positive difference in the long run.

On youtube, you can download a video, and host it yourself. I will do that today and post again with the link so you can add your comment! They may demand it to be removed, or they may not notice it.

I'm going to get involved in the Sedona method, as I've 'acquired' it. So far it's more appealing than Release because the cds don't go "and a little more... and more."

My main purpose is to become parallel to my mom, understand what she's feeling and maintain connection.

If you are a religious person, believe in Jesus, Allah, Mohammed, Abraham, Vishnu, Santa, Easter Bunny, Etc, do not read any more of this post, you will find objectionable. Otherwise, just highlight the text with your mouse and it will appear for you.


I've been an agnostic most of my life, and an atheist and skeptic (still TECHNICALLY agnostic.) So I don't believe in eternal life, a soul separate from the brain/mind, or even an ultimate objective purpose in life.

That however does not change the fact that I have love and compassion for my fellow humans, and a desire to fulfill my own 'hierarchy of needs' without taking from others. Nevertheless I've struggled with depression and purpose, from psychiatric to family and friends, relationships, etc. In fact a humanist book, 'In Defense of Humanism' by Paul Kurtz has a chapter on the meaning of life for naturalists, and that chapter makes a good case that my life is justifiably endable by myself. I am so emotionally depressed and confused that I am unable to meet alot of my own needs, from the physiological to the esteem, to the social, etc.

The method seems intended to help you describe and understand your feelings. My ultimate hope is just to organize myself emotionally with some tools to help process them without the train of thought ending in Suicide Pass any more.

So as I 'get into' the method, I would like for anyone who's interested to hold me accountable by messaging me weekly or monthly. We could even exchange phone numbers.

I am going to maintain my following goals, which have been important to me for a very long time:

1 Maintain a spirit of concern for fellow humans, and a spirit of volunteerism toward those who have less opportunity than I do.

2 Not gab about or obsess about the method, nor make it the center of interactions with everyone I know or meet.

3 Not spend a single dime on the seminars, other materials, etc, that would benefit the corporation itself. I may spend some money printing some notes or burning a backup CD, etc.

I don't believe in luck or wishes, so I'll just ask that you be in a supportive state where you can be glad for a greater number of fortunate events or changes.

For anyone who might think this is a publicity stunt to publicize the method, please message me. We can exchange numbers, and I will discuss in detail any why questions you may have. [/color:6c97238f25]

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mindconcern
For anyone who might think this is a publicity stunt to publicize the method, please message me. We can exchange numbers, and I will discuss in detail any why questions you may have.

For anyone who might think giving their numbers away so easily, see my and other's posts about what happens when you do something like that.

I've never been too convinced one way or the other on the God issue. On one hand I want to believe, and on the other I feel worried it's just another lame letdown in a long series of frauds (Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, etc). I suppose, though, it wouldn't hurt to see the lighter sides of the things I despise along with the dark.

One thing I temporarily gained with the Sedona method was a sense of security, that I always had at least one extra option (even if you will believe it was only a cognitive placebo of self-adjustment) to let go of whatever attachment I had to what was going on. Although now I see there were monsters looming in the dark, of which my Sedona method tools were not yet powerful enough to drive into darkness. dissolve. Etc. It's been a tool, but sometimes something I can't face comes along, and I'll end up drinking or smoking again or indulging in some sweaty ice cream desserts. I have just noticed that on the whole, sedona method has been a lot more fun than overindulging in sex, ice cream, tobacco, and alcohol. But alas, I am a novice :oops:

[b:5ecb0cbb20]So anyways, [i:5ecb0cbb20]yeah it's a good tool, but nothing to brag about [/i:5ecb0cbb20][/b:5ecb0cbb20]

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The Anticult
The old "kill-the-Ego" gag is one of the oldest, most destructive aspects of these kinds of pseudo-philosophies.
There are some more ancient monastic traditions in Buddhism that hold onto these ideas, and are actually rather "attached" to non-attachment to their own Ego.
;-)

Anticult,

I am interested in your remark of the 'kill-the-ego', even as it is in Buddhism, being a destructive aspect. I do understand that here the topic is this Sedona method, and dangerous cult practices, and in that sense you are not talking about traditional Buddhism. But as you mentioned their monastic practices too, I hope this off-topic question is acceptable.

Little background: I've gone thru a colourful enough life of a lot of work, fun and parties, which I still enjoy, being an atheist / agnostic, and somewhat a researcher too (in information technology) and interested in science. During the past few years, however, Buddhism has been growing onto me and I've started slowly practising it the little I can, mostly based on information in the books about it that I have been able to get. I feel that I'm still very early on in
this journey, but also that have read a lot and have at least a vague overall understanding of those teachings, plus some personal experiences from observations during meditation and how it has affected life.

My position so far has been that the idea of 'non-self' or anatta, as the Buddha taught it, is as essential today as ever for the mental development and well-being of people. As I understand it, the Buddha did not deny of there being some sort of conceptual entity in a moment that can be characterized as a 'self', but instead recognized it as a valid tool we need in talking about people and actios in everyday life. But the point is that such a self is not real, in the senses that it would somehow persist unchanged over time, and that it would be a singular thing -- as far as I know, those ideas are in line with contemporary psychology: personalities change and are sums of many elements within the mind.

Also I find that the notions of unity, of us not being really separate from others and the world, nor being really unique either (perhaps every consciousness is basically similar in the end), are fruitful and healthy. If you consider you being basically the same as others, the golden rule rises easily.

Of course, as Buddhism is scepticism, as it urges everyone to not believe anything without observing it critically yourself, it is very much opposed to the cult abuse of the idea of non-self where victims are lured to uncritical acception of ideas. And you did separate the actual idea from abuse in your post too, so I'm not accusing you of anything - mostly just being curious and sorting this our for myself here too, so I hope you don't get me wrong.

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The Anticult
This kind of thing has no place in modern society, and modern psychology. This idea of Ego-death, literally is a form of Cognitive Suicide, its very very sick.

Anyhow, as you seem to so strongly state that the ancient Buddhist idea of 'killing the ego' would have "no place in modern society, and modern psychology" and it being sick, I am interested in getting some references for studies, theories, essays or anything on the matter. Or of course your personal views if you are interested in discussing. So far my view is that nothing in our contemporary lifes justifies attaching to a wrong kind of an illusion of a self, not any more than 2,500 years ago -- perhaps vice versa, if/as the societies have developed to be more individualistic and ego-centric, even. But this is a very much non-trivial topic for me and I hope to learn more about it.

Concerning your remark, and what seems to be a strong theme in contemporary western psychology in general, of the wonderfulness of having "healthy, assertive ego-strength": in my understanding of the Buddhist view this would translate to having a strong coherent view of the world ('right view' is the first element on the eight-fold path), and a trained peaceful mind to deal with issues .. without the need for an ego, nor emphasizing individualism. But I guess having such a strong position could be also called having 'assertive ego-strenght', so perhaps to some extent this is just about differing definitions of concepts / semantics.

BTW: This is the first time for me on this forum, and a first post obviously, so PMing would not work .. if this talk would be better in another thread, feel free to move, or resort to PM if this is off-topic alltogether. Then again if the 'killing the ego' idea is central to Sedona, perhaps this talk is on-topic after all - I apologize for not bothering to find out much of Sedona now. And thanks for the great fora & site!

-an/t

Hey an-t...

Well, I don't want to talk too much into "Buddhism" as I don't even know what that is anymore! I used to sorta be one...many moons ago.

There are current so-called Buddhist groups, that Chant for fancy cars, and larger breasts, and fame, fortune, and better orgasms, etc. Seriously.
SGI
[www.culteducation.com]

Of course these issues get very complex, but I am just saying my view about "Ego-death", is that it has no place in the modern world. Its based on the idea of renunciation of the world, and you can seriously mess your life-mind-self up with that stuff.

I read books years ago like "The Path To No Self" and have come to the conclusion that stuff is very very very damaging in the way it attacks the normal, healthy, decent, imperfect, fallible human Self. It can be a form of SELF-HATRED. Nature gave us Self-Consciousness for a reason, that is what we are, its not something to be killed. It seems to me its Cognitive Suicide.

This is why The Sedona Method uses that technique, not for Enlightenment. But to weaken the minds and thus improve the SALES of their products. Its very devious. Even in this thread, there is tons of evidence of outright bald-faced lying from the Sedona Method leaders. They are selling enlightenment? They don't have a clue about anything other than making some fastmoney, and suppressing the Critical Mind is clearly being used as a sales-technique. I would like to think the Buddha would kick their lying asses for abusing his ideas to sell more product. (that's a joke)

That being said, there is evidence that Mindfulness combined with Cognitive Therapy ideas is getting good tested results for people. This stuff seems quite good, and healthy.

Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT
[www.mbct.co.uk]

That also being said, people have religious freedom, and can and will do what they want. If a person is a monk living in a cave...well...even some of those guys have been busted running around with the ladies and going to Burger King these days!
:-)
Its much better to be a Human, in my books, and not to try to pretend to be super-human.

There are even people who preach Ego-Death, as they Chant Buddhists slogans in front of an alter, to get larger breasts, a bigger house, and hotter sex with famous people.
I wish that were a joke, but its true. Reality is funnier than any joke it seems.

The bottom line is that classical buddhism is being abused, just like other ancient traditions, to turn a fast buck.

Hi again and thanks for the quick reply,

yah I think I agree with almost anything you say, and found it a good description of things as they are. In fact the reason I came across this thread was I searched for Buddhism on this forum, when became curious to see what kind of suspicious activities there are going on under / related to that name. As I'm trying to study it mostly alone at the moment, but am curious of groups, organizations and events related to it, it seems essential now to be very careful to avoid harmful contacts. Already came across SGI a little earlier when was getting a picture of the spread of Buddhism now in the west. After reading reports from the all kinds of scams out there, it is easy to believe that such groups abusing Buddhism as you describe are there too. Perhaps best to just dismiss those as funny, people do all kinds of things and I dont find that most harmful (at least they are just trying to get bigger genitals, not killing someone!), and I'm with you that we should let humour be around too ;)

On this issue of no-self / self and healthy being, I was reminded of the idea of conscience. I understood 'right mindfulness' from a Buddhist book on it so that it is basically about listening closely to you conscience (even though the concept might not be exactly identical, that is the closest translation i know), the idea being that we all can know what to do if we let the conscience tell us. But again so that conscience does not require an ego.

I do not know if the books you mention, like "The Path To No Self", are in line to what I've been reading and what am curious about, but how you view it being damaging reminded me of an interesting point I came across recently in a Thai remark on studying Buddhism: in the west the way seems reverse, as people encounter it via meditation retreats and practise, whereas in the classic teaching right mindfullness is at the end of the path! A recommended way, instead, is to start from simple concrete practise first, with generosity - it is practically beneficial as it helps humanity (the poor), but also a technique for spiritual/mental development as it helps to be more relaxed about useless extra material things (like a 3rd car).

Now I guess that has been abused too, in cults urging people to sell their house and give the money to the leader, or something :roll: .. but at least in movements where also the leaders live by their teaching I guess that is a good activity, and in any case I think a good point about learning strategies: advanced messing with the mind can be dangerous too, and is not the best place to start with improving life.

As a final remark, I'd like to note that we should remain sceptical of the natural ways of the mind and self-consciousness: my understanding is that nature gave it / them to us by accident .. more advanced cognitive skills developed slowly in the evolution, proved powerful for our otherwise weak little mammal species, and have hence grown even more, and perhaps as a side-effect the ever more capable brain resulted in this strange new phenomena of being able to reflect self which further enabled new intellectual tools that we have used to advance cultures and technologies since. Hence we lost innocence .. that is how I understand the Book of Genesis as an explanation of that evolutionary path that brought us apart from other animals. And it seems apparent that people easily end up doing very stupid things for weird reasons, 'ego boosting' (resulting from fear / weak self-consciousness I guess) being one of them, so I find that help in dealing with feelings, thoughts and passions is needed for us to live good lives. Perhaps especially in the post-modern times. Not to be superhuman, as healthy humans already are great, but to not be a bad person and destroy lifes of others and the whole planet as a result of our ego trips.

Thank you again for explaining the view, and I totally respect your wish to not go too much into Buddhism here - this is not the place, and perhaps we are not the people either. This exchange already was much for me, can happily continue with my life for a couple of weeks, letting these ideas mature or something, and see what happens later..

an/t

Just to add a quick comment. There are certainly all sorts of valid concepts out there. My comments are to be taken along the context of this forum, and thread, which is destructive groups, like The Sedona Method.

For example, in every one of these destructive groups that call for their people to move toward Ego-Death, or some variant of that...in EVERY case I am aware of, the Leader is the EXACT opposite. He/she is usually a malignant narcissist, who might benefit from trimming down their Ego, but they do the exact opposite. They might play-act in public, but their real self is usually the exact opposite.

Ego-submission is for their followers, not for them. Their world is only big enough for one Ego...theirs.

I am just saying, consider being like a philosopher, who looks at all sides of a position, and the problems with all sides of it.
This Ego-death stuff can grab people, and next thing you know they waste 10 years of their life, sometimes decades.
I am putting out the idea that it might be an outdated concept from a more primitive era, where life was nasty, short, and brutish.

Regardless, its clear the Sedona Method is abusing this technique, as a way to makes the Sales process easier. Do they even realize the potential damage to people, or do they just want more money for a bigger house?
Any claims these Sedona Method people are making about "enlightenment" clearly are falsified by their blatant lying.

I doubt they even understand it. They don't seem too bright.
But they do understand that people who believe stuff like that will BUY ANYTHING you tell them too.

They are in the same arena as Peter Popoff, the con-artist who is at it again. I predict this time Peter Popoff, will end up popping-off to jail for fraud. Some of these guys cannot help themselves, it seems, its just too easy to lie, and get easy money from people.

[abcnews.go.com]
Selling Salvation?
Reverend Peter Popoff Is Making a Comeback, With a Little Help From 'Miracle Spring Water'
[img:8120c44444]http://a.abcnews.com/images/2020/ht_peter_popoff_070511_ms.jpg[/img:8120c44444]