There is a meltdown happening on a forum that I used to frequent, especially in the immediate aftermath of my Landmarkian doctor. Apparently something political was posted by the owner of this website, a site for people who have been verbally abused. It is against the rules to post anything political becauase the threads usually just deteriorate and everyone ends up pissed off. The PhD owner basically said it's my site and I can do anything I want. Be thankful you have this place. She denied knowing her own rules about political postings, and has been quite rude in the way she is dealing with people who have questioned her.

This posting turned up today by someone trying to make sense of the PhD's words..

DR says*****If anyone chooses to take it offensively, that is your choice - you are creating that pain for yourself. The idea of recovery is not to ask someone not to say that which may offend you (that is being controlling!), it is about learning to deal internally with that which offends you. That is how you don't permit people to push your buttons! This tendency is a side-effect of having been in an abusive relationship. Don't we want to work at counteracting the effects of abuse?****

I think we live in a YOU MAKE ME world. It is a phrase i hear almost everyday. I also think it is one of the most unpowerful positions one can assume. If everyone makes everyone...then where does personal integrity come from? Integrity is not from with out...it is inside.

I think Wayne Dyer and also that *what the bleep do we know* movie really out line well the ideas around ones own Chemicals thoughts and seprateness. One must follow the trails of ones own Neuro net to find the source as to why xyz is not okay with you....these are your values.experiences.

Knowing alot about abuse which alot here do know......if ever confronted with offensive words deeds behavior....would you hang out, complain, try and fix it? Or would you just see it as good info for you to run for the hills ( this is speaking of hypotheticals, not this board)

You offendedness is info for you.

it is neither good or bad.

This poster is trying to understand the words of the PhD. Now, it is one thing to say "you make me feel", HOWEVER, the idea that the only reason something is offensive is because you choose to make it offensive allows anyone to say anything to anyone else and not take responsibility for their actions. This PhD has claimed to be Zen - though she made the claim without really going in depth. So many therapists have jumped on the eastern philosophy bandwagon and some may actually feel that doing so is Zen. The above comments about choosing really smacks of everything I learned in Landmark Forum.

Another point I'd like to hear opinions on. What about therapists with their own websites. It is not really a therapeutic relationship, but what has happened on this particular website is that posters are feeling uncomfortable posting their thoughts. Some, who have been in different places in their recovery from abuse, have been blasted for not taking responsibility. When is it a therapist's responsibility to monitor their website for the safety and wellbeing of those who post there? Is the disclaimer that it is not to replace professional help enough?

Another poster on the verbal abuse forum is having a very hard time with what is happening. She has articulated the crazy-making discussion going on there. It all smacks of LGAT rackets and how they are used to confuse, and also to insulate the manipulator. This is kind of sad to read. Her words are in italics.

I have more thoughts relating to this (that kept me awake yet AGAIN this morning)... summarizing things I've heard the past few days...

A. We're told to share our feelings and experiences, but...(my note, they got blasted when they did)

B. We're also told to de-sensitize ourselves to emotional triggers...(my note, don't take everything personally, toughen up)

C. and yet sensitize ourselves to disrespectful behavior from others (because we were told that we've normalized it and can't tell when we're experiencing it/seeing it).

Yet, when I shared how I felt as a result of a certain disrespectful behavior, I was told it wasn't applicable to share that. (However, see points A and C.)

All these things seem diametrically opposed. There doesn't seem to be a way to "be correct." It's an impossible situation.

Maybe it was a regional or generational thing, but when I was growing up, it was considered rude and mean to say certain things... among these, specifically, were words like "Tough!" and "Who cares?" (the latter of which is another one I've seen sometimes...not recently, but frequently enough to have it weigh on my mind). They were likely considered inappropriate because of the connotations of nastiness and disdain associated with such terms. People who were not bullies just didn't say those things, but people who were bullies, did. (And I grew up in a suburb of Detroit, not the South where manners are more highly valued.) And in all the intervening decades, I've rarely if ever seen or heard those words used. So I'm not accustomed to seeing them used to/from people who were not intentionally being mean. I wasn't aware of their usage as being appropriate in polite situations. If it is my lack of awareness at fault, I apologize.

This poster then goes on to relate a story about her abusive spouse, who would yell at her and when SHE became upset, would tell her "don't take it that way", which is EXACTLY what the PhD owner of this board did to her.

In the past, he has also said "Don't take it that way" when I've told him how his anger affects me. He said, "Don't take it that way. You know I don't mean anything by it." So he is putting the responsibility for the effects of his behavior onto me - how I take it - which I thought we learned is not appropriate. He doesn't have to own his anger and its effects - I am supposed to own my upset at his anger, and it's my fault if I get upset from his behavior (?).

The Turnaround Technique...Bullying on Steriods

This sort of turnaround technqiue ('get over it' or 'you are too sensitive') lets bullies off the hook and enables them to pathologize the very people whose hearts and toes the bully has stomped on.

**This 'turnaround technique' will not wound an adversary who is also a self involved bully. It will only wound someone who is not themselves a bully.

Best of all, the bully can pathologize and confuse the person trying to get through to them. Anyone who has empathy and has the capacity to feel hurt by a bully, will find his or her human empathy is pathologised as 'too sensitive.'

Worse, the bully can tell the target, 'I didnt hurt you by my behavior. You are abusing yourself by telling a story to yourself that I hurt you. You created the story, and so you abused yourself.'

So a legitimate attempt by a target to bear witness is turned into mind fuck by the perpetrator who has learned the turnaround technique.

It turns everyone but the bully into a meat puppet who can be smacked with impunity, for the bully can invalidate the target's suffering by declaring the suffering is the meat puppets own fault.

This revolting technique would supply armour plate and give a bully your a 'bullet proof' ego.

That turnaround technique has to be a egotist-bully's dream--the bully can deflect any corrective input or cries of pain from persons the bully has wounded.

But what is the most horrifying for us, and most thrilling for the egotist, is that if you buy into the turnaround method, you get automatic social validation for this because you join a society of people
who are learning to do the same turnaround mind fuck tactics.

Some learned it in EST, others learn it today in LGATs that derive from EST, still others are learning it from Byron Katie, yet others are learning it in shitty bogus Hindu and Buddhist groups.

In the old days, people who behaved like the person Hope describes would find themselves somewhat isolated and disapproved of by polite society, because this kind of turn around behavior was considered deviant, even psychopathic, and had not become normalized through New Age smarm.

Persons who pulled this turnaround stuff would have had tomatoes thrown at them, and been given poor marks in school for deportment or citizenship--unless they were charming, rich or talented enough to become entertainers or acquire sufficient social power to attract bootlickers who hoped to profit from the bully's patronage.

But now, thanks to the internet and self help types who market bullet proof armor for egos, and teach effective judo for deflecting adverse input from people dismayed and hurt by this supercharged
bullying---you get an automatic support group that is world wide---and even get to attend refresher courses on keeping one's bullying technique fresh and up to date.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2008 11:23PM by corboy.

You've pretty much summed it up, Corboy. The forum has a bunch of supporters who are circling the wagons around the forum owner. The mass marketing of The Secret, What the Bleep, and the messages expressed on Oprah and Dr. Phil, have appealed to many who are at their most vulnerable, and all the posters on this particular forum are vulnerable, being abused. The supporters are pretty much seeing, what we define as crazymaking, in action. What happens then is people either suppress a lot of confusion and anger to go along, or they bail out. There have been several who have bailed out and now they're being blasted as the bullies who should have left a long time ago. This is exactly what happens in a Landmark Forum. All of it. Those who leave are the examples referred to throughout the weekend as people who just don't get it.

The therapist who owns and operates the verbal abuse board posted real identities and email addresses of some of her long-time posters when they started asking questions of her about her double standards. This is serious, as some of these people are in very abusive relationships, cannot afford therapy, and have been using that board for support. Not only has personal information been posted, but this therapist is making disparaging remarks about people she is banning, seemingly at random, after they're gone. Sounds like someone may have gone off her meds.

The whole idea of support boards owned and operated by licensed professionals who have disclaimers about advice on the boards not being a substitute for therapy, yet who know many of their posters are using their forum for their only means of support, is a gray area. One of the posters whose name was revealed has filed a complaint with the State licensing board. But how far will that go? This is not therapy via email, and the doctor/owner only started after many, many years, of actually corresponding via the forum with her posters. Some of the posters became paying clients.

The nonlegal, gray-area stuff comes from the shock many of the posters are now in as a result of finding out their doctor is now really who she claims to be, and has turned out to be a bit of a verbal abuser herself. She is feeding them crazymaking lines straight out of any Landmark/BK forum. Many posters are beating themselves up now for being so stupid, being so gullible, not seeing red flags, etc. so much of the same stuff many of us have gone through in real life, with real organizations and individuals that we've interacted with.

too bad we can't see the website...or have the therapists name..
;-)

but if she is a real licensed psychologist, they would probably force her to take those names down.
They should phone up the head of the licensing board personally.

but on the other hand, if she is like a TV psychologist, and is not licensed anymore...

it does sound like she's gotten into some type of LGAT.
Also, often therapists go into fields where they have problems themselves.

but a real therapist revealing identities, that is way over the line. I've never seen that before. That's nuts.

She has "temporarily" closed her forum but is adding to the home page. www. Dr Ir ene. com is the forum, if it comes back up. There were quite a few threads from the recent past regarding Byron Katie, The Secret, and BK was a part of the resource section. The doc praised BK's work and recommended it to her clients, though, to be fair, she also has many "legit" authors in her resource room.

Another forum has popped up on www. fr ee to b i t ch . com where some of the former members from the first forum are finding a place to, well, bi t ch.

I took a very tiny look at it, so anything I say could be way wrong, of course.

She did take her forum offline, but all the old threads are still available in the google cache. I won't post a link to any of them unless asked.

but the first impression her website gives seems to be a therapist who wants to be famous...maybe get a TV show, or appear on TV, get a radio show, etc.

one has to wonder what she knows about anger? Isn't there such a thing as healthy anger? (and destructive anger,of course).
I've noticed most LGAT culty things try to pathologize healthy anger and assertiveness, to pacify their people.
Its ok for the Guru to rage, but not her sheeple.

I think people should be Free To Bitch all they want. Some venting is better than the pathological denial of normal anger, which then comes out in a crazed rage, like what seems what happened with this person!

She may have learned that horseshit from Byron Katie.

I think you are absolutely correct about BK. Though her homepage bookshelf lists all the heavy hitters in the psychology, like Albert Ellis, it is her own assessment of BK's work "cognitive therapy in disguise" and the fact that she recommended BK in her private practive, that is behind a lot of her words and actions, though some actions are dumb-founding. A long-term, adored poster, who suffered emotional, verbal and physical abuse by a boyfriend, asked Dr. I to end her membership (members cannot do that on their own) and delete all her posts. Instead, the doc left her posts up and renamed her user name from D__ to Dingbat. It has not been lost on me that the abuser of this woman was very into Landmark and it wasn't until I started posting about Landmarkians over there that D___ wrote about her own abuser's connection to it. So - perhaps the whackjob doctor is more into LGAT stuff than she has ever let on. It really appears as if she is having some kind of meltdown.

The following excerpt is from the doc's interactive board where abused people tell their story and the doctor posts advice (on the website, she uses a bright blue font - I've bolded and italicized).

(Abused woman) My son has been very supportive. He is a very good kid coming from a couple of formerly - much better lately - screwed-up parents! But I also worry that I shouldn't be involving him in all my pain. I know it can't be this easy ... or can it?

Why can't it? Sounds like it is.

Two steps forward, one step back. I ordered a couple of the books you recommended. Any others you know that specifically address recovering abusers?

I see you already picked up Loving What Is: Four questions that can change your life by Byron Katie, one of my favorites! This is another of those books that you have to practice, as you are doing. Read and re-read it. Also, she gives seminars; you may want to track her down. Look at The BookShelf, especially the Acceptance /Spirituality and Mindfulness sections. See if anything catches your eye. Books with a spiritual twist are very good for you in the space you're in these days.[/[/i]b]

Quote on the bookshelf.....
Oh, I love this one! I call it "cognitive therapy in disguise" to help you love you and accept what is... Loving What Is: Four questions that can change your life by Byron Katie.