rapologist:

You said, "I have met Erhard on many occasions (as an avid consumer of that type of training)...as recently as a month ago..."

You are not here regarding "curiosity," but rather as an apologist for Landmark and "as an avid consumer of that type of training."

Werner Erhard has a history of complaints, bad press and serious problems, with his family and employees.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Here is an article archived about Erhard written and published during his earlier years.

Encountering Werner Erhard

Washington Post/April 14, 1979

By Megan Rosenfeld

Torrents of words, cascades of clauses, sentences without ends springing up like dust devils, then settling and springing up again . . .Buckminster Fuller, 83, talks of alloys and Magellan and lawyers, and Werner Erhard, 42, talks about getting clear and taking responsibility and having a purpose in life . . .

Fuller, the indomitable inventor of the geodesic dome and all-purpose thinker, and Erhard, inventor of a self-help philosophy called est and ex-used car salesman, have teamed up for a six-hour audio-visual event to be held today at the Sheraton Park hotel.

In a joint interview yesterday they warmed up for the session, which will address the humble question: "Can an ordinary individual make difference in the world?"

Fuller tells you quite quickly that Erhard is donating all the proceeds from the $35-a-ticket event to his work, and that, no, he has not taken the est training."Werner said I probably went through my own sort of est 52 years ago. In 1927 I reorganized my life when I was 32 years of age, the year [his daughter] Allegra was born."

And what does Werner get out of it? Whoops, dumb question. "Ha!ha!" he laughs in two staccato bursts.

"I think he gets great joy," interrupts Fuller.

"The question," says Erhard, "already presupposes an answer that I would have to get something out of it in the ordinary sense of getting something out of it. In the context you're asking the question it's not possible to do something out of unmotivated behavior. So if I tell you I'm doing it because I'm doing it, you'd say THAT'S NONSENSE! But the fact of the matter is I don't expect anything out of it, or I expect to get myself out of it."

But. . . what's wrong with getting something out of something?

"I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. Those are your words. Megan, you're not getting it. If you're not getting it, you're not getting it."

Or, as Erhard's mother, Dorothy, was quoted in his biography after taking the training herself: "What is is; what ain't ain't."

Est, a two-day program that has now been taken by about 200,000 people, is aimed at "helping you take responsibility for your own life." It now costs $350, and its devotees sweat it has helped them to cope with their lives and aims more effectively. It is a synthesis of Erhard internal investigations of Dale Carnegie, Zen, Scientology, Gestalt, Encounter groups, Mind Dynamics, and his upbringing by a Jewish father who later turned Baptist and an Episcopalian mother. Or, as Erhard is quoted in a book titled "est - making life work":

"I had to separate the bull ---- from the gunsmoke."

Detractors think it's weird, another expensive mind-programming routine cashing in on the vulnerabilities of confused people and dosing them with a message that is a combination of gobbledygook and common sense. It has attracted its share of celebrities, and Fuller says that he checked out the financial side of the operation thoroughly before joining hands with Erhard, "It's anything but a cult," he says. "It's more a school."

Erhard, a lean, blue-eyed man with just a blush of tan, also has started The Hunger Project, which has enrolled about 350,000 volunteers dedicated to eradicating hunger from the plante by the year 2000. The project raises money to raise awareness of the plight of the hunger but does not spend money on food for starving people, an aspect that has prompted several journalistic exposes. But that is not the subject of today's discussion. There was a curious misprint in one of the press releases about today's event. People are not narcissistic, it said, rather they are affected with "a kind of social impudence."

"Social impotence," was the way the other notice put it.

"Maybe that's a Freudian typo," says Erhard, laughing. "It could mean thinking for yoursel, and- . . ."

And speaking up," interjects Fuller.

Fuller has never been one to hide his light under a bushel. The essence of his message - one hesitates to summarize what will be delivered in four hours of talk - is that man can make the world work, and he can prove it.

He met Erhard through his grandson, Jaime Snyder, who travels with him and works on the video aspects of the event.

There is something about Erhard that has attracted legions of hero-worshiping followers who speak about him as though he were some sort of deity.

He's a handsome, well-kept man who dresses casually in tan slacks, cardigan and a light blue shirt that accents his eyes.

In 1960, Erhard, who was then named Jack Rosenberg, left his wife and four children in Philadelphia and disappeared for 12 years, getting back into contact with his family only fater he had starred West in 1971.

According to the biography, his abrupt departure caused his family great pain and confusion. Now everyone in his immediate family has taken the "training" and some of them work for him.

After deserting his family and changing his name so his police captain uncle couldn't track him down, Erhard held a series of jobs. He sold encyclopedias for the Grolier Society Inc., and worked in perssonel for the Parents Magazine Cultural Institute. Meanwhile he began to dabble in various human-potential philosophies, and started developing est after he had a flash of insight while driving across the Golden Gate Bridge that his life had "stopped working."

Est sessions started in a friend's apartment in 1971 and grew to a multimillion dollar enterprise within four years. It headquarters is in San Francisco, with other offices in about a dozen other cities, including Washington.

Erhard today communcates a sense of serenity, and arrogance as well. His voice is well-modulated and pleasant; you get the sense he's said everything he's saying hundreds of times before.

In his introduction to the biography, he wrote that the quotation from the philosopher Soren Kierkegaard that author Bill Bartley used to open one chapter "seems to pierce to the heart of what happened (in his life)."

"What our age needs is education. And so this is what happened: God chose a man who also needed to be educated, and educated him privatissime, so he might be able to teach others from him own experience."

One of the mysterious things about est is that its graduates seem unable to describe just what the "training" is. It's an all-day, two-day process, which involves listening to lectures, "sharing" intimate experiences with 400 or so strangers, and other group-encounter techniques. It is not true, one graduate reports, that your are not allowed to go to the bathroom for eight hours. You are allowed to go after four hours.

In "est-making life work," the author describes his training. The first day ended at 3 a.m., he reports, and the next began at 9 a.m., with the trainer comparing the experience of life to "Grandma's Vermont Stew."

They were asked to "get in touch" with one item in the "stew." A body sensation, an emotion, an attitude toward life" were all possible stew ingredients. Then the trainees were told to "grab hold of the substance of the experience" and then take their "fingers off the repress button."

"I want to say something kind of personal," says Werner Erhard earnestly, "I think that the things that are worth telling people are difficult to tell them, the truth just doesn't work that way. . .

"A word that's synonymous with the truth is The Whole complete-the word completion. . ."

Fuller interrupts: "You know that wonderful quote, "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,' people don't really listen to it. . ."

"Yes," Erhard continues, "they want rules for life and rules and not the truth about life."

The public relations man keeps a beeper to signal that the interview is over. "I'll be finished in a minute, Vincent," Erhard says firmly.

"I want to be clear I'm not looking for agreement.Because the truth has its own potency."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2008 11:04PM by rrmoderator.

Here is another seminal article about Erhard.

The Winds of Werner

Forbes/November 18, 1985

By Richard Behar and Ralph King Jr.

The IRS, the Order of Malta and a Swiss banker have a problem: a one-time used car salesman from Philadelphia.

Plenty of controversy has swirled around Werner Erhard, the millionaire guru of est (Erhard Seminars Training) who began life as Jack Rosenberg of Philadelphia and who once sold used cars for a living. One man undoubtedly wishes that he had never heard of Erhard: Zurich-based Wolfgang Somary, heir to one of the oldest banking fortunes in Switzerland.

Bankers normally ask lots of tough questions - and demand plenty of solid collateral - before making loans to foreigners. But on one occasion that he's never likely to forget, Somary seems to have done neither.

Described by associates as ethereal, otherwordly and dedicated to humanitarian causes, Somary, 53, apparently became so enamored of Erhard's messianic notions about transforming the world that in 1981 he authorized a low-interest $15 million loan to help him spread his message. That money is now a key prop in Erhard's empire, which stretches across 20 countries and a bewildering array of foundations, trusts and tax-haven shells.

Somary apparently began to wonder if he would ever see the money again, and took the matter to a federal court in San Francisco, charging that Erhard was welshing on his deal. Both Erhard and Somary are tight-lipped about the dispute. In fact, when Forbes began pressing for an interview, Somary grew increasingly noncooperative and eventually withdrew the suit. Meanwhile, Forbes had turned up an astonishing labyrinth of characters and organizations in the case. They reach from a foundation in Switzerland to a bank in Panama and a government-connected charity in Costa Rica.

One way or another, all have left their finger marks on the multimillion dollar loan, shedding much light not only on the way Erhard does his deals but also on the complexities of offshore financial gamesmanship when big bucks are at stake.

When last heard from in these pages (Forbes, Dec. 1, 1975) Erhard was riding high with his consciousness-raising cult, which combined everything from Scientology, Zen and Gestalt to echoes of Erhard's own upbringing by a Jewish father who turned Episcopalian. Est made Erhard rich, but it gradually lost its attraction, and Erhard closed his est training business last year.

Now Erhard, 50, lives on a boat in swanky Marin county, devoting himself to pet projects like The Forum, a kind of Son of est, and the Hunger Project, which seeks to eradicate world hunger through education.

Meanwhile, Erhard no longer retains his longtime offshore tax expert, Harry Margolis, who is under federal indictment for fraud and perjury involving over $100 million in false loans and tax returns. Erhard himself is spending plenty of time in court. He faces over $2 million in tax liabilities that the IRS asserts he has, and is in the midst of a nasty divorce from his wife, Ellen, who is seeking 50% of all his assets under California community property law.

That divorce is what has Somary shaking. Assuming that Ellen Erhard prevails, there will be that much less for Somary to go after if Werner Erhard does not live up to the terms of the loan.

The way the loan was set up was astoundingly complex. Somary used an obscure nonprofit Zurich association he cofounded in 1974, the Intercultural Cooperation Foundation, to lend the funds. But instead of having the money go directly to Erhard, he had Intercultural send the money via the First National Bank of Boston's branch office in Panama City, Panama, through what appears to be a spurious Costa Rican foundation, the Fundacion Soberana Orden de San Juan de Jerusalem, and only thereafter to Erhard's pocket in San Francisco.

The loan, made on Sept. 15, 1981, when est enrollment was peaking and Erhard was casting about for funds, proved enticing. Not only did it carry a virtual giveaway 2% interest rate and required no repayment of principal for ten years, but it also went to Erhard's for-profit, sole proprietorship Werner Erhard & Associates.

The Costa Rican group that acted as intermediary in the deal had in fact been set up by an Erhard friend several days before the transfer occurred, and also stood to benefit. Under the terms of the deal, a major portion of the interest payments would wind up not with Intercultural but, if Intercultural so chose, with the Costa Rican outfit instead.

What in fact is this Costa Rican group? A check with a staff attorney at the Controller General's office in San Jose reveals that the organization has never filed an annual report. And other local authorities claim that the group seems to do precious little charity work of any sort. The group makes pretenses to having a connection with the 900-year-old Rome-based Sovereign Military Order of Malta, an international charitable organization that has close ties to the Vatican. But authorities in Rome and Denmark (where an ecumenical version of the order is based) disavow any association with the Costa Rican organization and insist that it is illegitimate.

How did a man like Wolfgang Somary let himself get drawn into this mess? Good question - and one that seems to puzzle his own Intercultural colleagues. Dr. Hans Fischer-Barnicol, the executive director of Intercultural's research arm in Heidelberg, seemed completely in the dark about a $15 million Intercultural loan to Erhard through Costa Rica. So did James George of Port Murray, N. J., a current Intercultural board member who has been active off and on since Intercultural was founded. Said he ''This $15 million is new to me. [The organization] has been in mothballs for a number of years, without financial resources.''

Court documents obtained by Forbes reveal that Somary arranged for Intercultural to make the loan on little more than Erhard's promise to transform Werner Erhard & Associates into a charity, as well as to devote the funds to further ''charitable purposes'' and ''benefit the world.''

Benefit the world? That's a pretty broad charter, especially considering that Erhard was, basically, answerable to no one. ''Werner Erhard & Associates is a sole proprietorship, and it funnels right in to Mr. and Mrs. Erhard's tax returns,'' says Allan Goddard of Arthur Young & Co., Erhard's accountant.

What did Erhard do with the money? Here is where $12.5 million of it went: in 1975 Erhard's tax attorney, Margolis, established a charitable trust in the tax-haven isle of Jersey, consigning ownership to it of a California-based company entitled est, An Educational Corp., which happened to have certain real estate and office equipment assets.

With $8.5 million of the loan, Erhard in 1981 ''bought'' those assets for Werner Erhard & Associates, along with another $900,000 worth of artwork directly from the Jersey trust. Result? Erhard personally acquired the property that was formerly held by the trust, while the trust acquired $9.4 million in cash, courtesy of the Intercultural loan.

Another $1.6 million of the loan was used to pay off Werner Erhard's personal debt. An additional $1.5 million went toward purchasing a ''body of knowledge'' from a Netherlands-based firm called Welbehagen (meaning ''pleasure''), which in turn was owned by a Zurich-based foundation known as the Werner Erhard Foundation for est. Swiss government records show that several months later the foundation liquidated itself, asserting that it had insufficient capital to carry out its stated functions. Really? When its Dutch subsidiary had just received that $1.5 million from the loan?

As Wolfgang Somary has apparently learned the hard way, making sense out of Werner Erhard's finances is about as easy as coming to grips with his high-sounding blather about ''benefiting the world.''

Fuzzy, but fervent

The est fad has faded, but Werner Erhard goes on. He still sits on the board of a lively outfit he cofounded in 1977 called the Hunger Project. Since then it has become an in thing for the socially involved, having attracted a whole range of est alumni, from ComputerLand founder William Millard to entertainers Valerie Harper and John Denver. All are drawn by the group's fuzzy yet fervent ideas about how to fight global hunger.

Set up as a California-chartered charitable foundation with a $100,000 grant from the est Foundation, the Hunger Project today boasts 4 million participants in 152 countries. Although this year it expects to show only $9 million from contributions, the organization is beginning to rival long-standing groups like Care and Unicef as the highest-profile hunger charity in the country.

What in fact is the Hunger Project? A lot of it boils down to est-like ''briefings'' in which well-meaning but naive do-gooders attend four-hour seminars. At the sessions, people are invited to change the ''context'' in which they think about hunger, to close their eyes and imagine what it would be like to starve, and, among other things, to make regular monthly cash donations to the project.

To be assured of a fresh supply of acolytes, the graduates then go forth into the world to spread the word not just that starving is bad but that Hunger Project seminars are good. And this brings in the next wave, creating a kind of chain letter.

Although very little of the money collected actually goes to feed people, the Hunger Project does have the occasional token development project to show the curious. The largest such project is a five-year, $1 million development effort funded jointly with Save The Children in rural Costa Rica.

Why Costa Rica, the most prosperous country in Central America, and a place where most aid experts say hunger is virtually non-existent? One reason may be the man who put the deal together, a prominent Costa Rican government official and friend of Erhard's named Fernando Flores-Banuet. He just happens to be the same individual whose San Jose charity served as a conduit for the $15 million Zurich loan to Erhard in 1981.

Here is an interesting article concerning employee litigation filed against Erhard.

Ex-Employees Describe Abuse In Suit Against est's Erhard

San Francisco Chronicle/April 3, 1990

By Don Lattin

Former employees of EST founder Werner Erhard say they were forced to obey the pop psychology guru in a manner ''akin to God'' and to submit themselves to ''numerous instances of verbally and physically abusive behavior.''

In sworn statements, the ex-employees also charge that they were required to worship Erhard as ''the Source'' and were controlled with exhausting work schedules, loyalty oaths, threats and emotional abuse.

The allegations -- by five former staff members of est, of the Forum and of Werner Erhard and Associates -- were filed last week in San Francisco Superior Court in support of a wrongful termination lawsuit against Erhard by Charlene Afremow, a longt ime associate of the human potential movement czar.

Vincent Drucker of San Anselmo, the former chief financial officer of est, said in one of the affidavits that a program begun in the late 1970s ''put great pressure on the executives, including myself, to surrender to 'Source.' ''

Erhard often compared the relationship between himself and his trainers ''to the bond between a samurai lord and the samurai vassals,'' Drucker said. ''Mr. Erhard threatened me with death on two occasions,'' he said, by citing ''certain people in the Mafia.''

Allegations Denied

In a statement released yesterday, Erhard denied all the allegations, calling them ''ridiculous fabrications from a few disgruntled former employees.''

''Responding publicly to these unsupportable accusations point by point would only further the malicious intent of the individuals in question,'' he said.

Erhard's weekend est trainings -- launched in 1971 and repackaged as the Forum in 1984 for a more corporate clientele -- are among the most financially successful human potential movement seminars. Nearly half a million people took the est training, and 500,000 have participated in the Forum, an Erhard spokesman said.

Werner Erhard and Associates, which runs the Forum and several other consulting businesses, last year took in $ 45 million in U.S. revenues, the spokesman said.

Born in 1935 as Jack Rosenberg, Erhard created his ''personal transformation'' empire by combining ideas from Zen Buddhism, Scientology and some of the alternative psychotherapy and self-motivation techniques developed in the 1950s and 1960s.

Today, initiates to the Forum pay $ 595 for two consecutive weekends designed to inspire ''a breakthrough in personal effectiveness'' and produce ''a new experience of vitality and aliveness'' through a ''challenging, rigorous inquiry . . . into the profound possibility of being.'' Groups of 100 to 250 people participate in the workshops.

Range Of Opinions

Opinions vary as to whether Erhard is a leading-edge thinker or slick purveyor of meaningless psychobabble, but the accusations in the court documents paint one of the darkest pictures yet of his San Francisco-based organization.

Former est trainer Irving Bernstein of Mill Valley, who quit in 1985, said in one affidavit that ''the Source'' was understood ''to mean that Erhard was akin to God.''

''Leaving WEA ( Werner Erhard and Associates) was looked upon as an act of heresy,'' stated Bernstein, who said employees ''essentially committed their souls forever to do the Work and do what Erhard asked.''

Michael Breard of Corte Madera said in his court declaration that his ''interview process'' for becoming a personal aide to Erhard involved spending two days ''cleaning the bilge of the boat on which Mr. Erhard was living with a toothbrush and Q-tip.' Breard, who said he was hired on Erhard's staff in 1984, stated that he was told by Erhard's brother, Harry Rosenberg, that he would be harmed if confidential information about Erhard's posh lifestyle were ever revealed.

Breard said he was told that ''Mr. Erhard had a friend in the Mafia'' who would ''take care'' of anyone who leaked information.

Wake-Up Massage

He said one of his duties was to wake Erhard up every morning by ''kneeling at the foot of the bed, putting my hands under the covers and massaging his feet and calves in a particular manner.'' Breard also was supposed to make sure that Erhard's toiletries were lined up in an exact row each morning. ''Mr. Erhard was an incredible perfectionist and was extremely verbally abusive if tasks were not performed according to his exact specifications,'' he said.

Breard said that he was physically struck on one occasion but that Erhard's usual way to ''berate me would be to scream obscenities at me in a voice which is louder than I can describe.''

At the request of Erhard's attorneys, the affidavits were put under court seal last week by Superior Court Judge Ira Brown. For a short time, however, they were open for public viewing and photocopying. The suit is set for trial April 16.

In previously filed court documents, Erhard's attorneys have denied Afremow's allegations of age discrimination, sex discrimination, defamation and the intentional infliction of emotional distress.''

Based in San Francisco, the Forum is offered through 35 Werner Erhard and Associates offices in the United States and 14 other offices around the world. Erhard has also expanded into the corporate consulting and personnel management business in recent years through a network of franchise businesses sold under the name Transformational Technologies, Inc.

rrmoderator

I refuse to accept conclusions that are not from my personal experience and unsubstantiated. I was replying to corboy's comment. I came on this board to ask you the two questions which I asked you re: alternatives and material.

My curiosity includes my experience. Is that OK with you? Why do you have to resort to insulting condescending labeling and name calling to marginalize a person's responses?


rapologist

rrmoderator

I have no way to validate the truth in these articles you are posting. My personal bias is not to trust most media or articales like this. You study abuse Rick - have you ever seen more abuse then we have seen in print media , newspapers, news, tabloids, and shameful dishonest unauthorized biographies?

People tend to trust what they read. I do not. I am not an academic but my understanding is that the academic world does not take these articles or debates seriously because they are never backed up by facts. It is all hearsay, opinion, innuendo and recycled half truths and lies and distorted biased points of views.

I have to go with my experience. It is what I trust and count on in life. Others can hang on the words of others if they like. That is their choice.

rapologist.

rapologist:

You say, "I refuse to accept conclusions that are not from my personal experience and unsubstantiated."

Then you say, "People tend to trust what they read. I do not."

This is the typical response to be expected from an "Internet troll," that comes to message boards hoping to subvert them and not to engage in any meaningful dialog.

The long history of Landmark/est as documented within the Ross Institute Archives is complete with court documents, research and press reports, which substantiate what's wrong with the LGAT program and its founder Erhard.

See [www.culteducation.com]

As far as your subjective "personal experience," such anecdotal stories are frequently offered by "cult" members attempting to apologize for their various groups.

But there is no scientifically substantiated, peer reviewed and published paper that substantiates any objective measurable results produced by LGATs like Landmark, e.g. higher grades, higher salaries, lower divorce rate, less need for professional counseling etc.

Landmark offers only subjective personal testimonials like yours, much like the testimonials offered to support "faith healers."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2008 11:19PM by rrmoderator.

rrmoderator

I will agree that defending or promoting any point of view can drag all sides into the same place and your comment here has validity in my opinion.

I have never once seen a message board on any subject not become a game of one-upsmanship where no one gets to enjoy being heard and comunicate in a great way... and myself become a argumentative pinhead trying to covertly do in my opponent. What can I say. I chose a nickname to be up front with my point of view.

I came to ask two questions. You answered one and declined the other. I will take my leave on that note and thank-you for the engagement. I will read you next reply then I will sign off.



rapologist

Quote
rapologist
corboy


What I personally observed was Werner Erhard time and time again spending hours upon hours with individuals that *I ( *I can be a very unforgiving and harsh person) would deem worthless, annoying , stupid, insincere and of no consequence because I did not like or trust how that person looked or spoke....and yet Werner Erhard seemed to have none of those judgmnents of that person and would stay engrossed with that person in dialogue for hours! patiently talking with them on some issue or thing, and honestly, it drove many people present crazy that Erhard considered this person worth all of our time.

Werner Erhard seemed to approach that person he was talking to as if they had allot of value and of high quality and when they were done talking, those people, who had probably been margianalized by everyone else many times because of how they are, would be beaming and look fully acknowledged and hardly left feeling like an "object" or as if they had been related to as a "mere mechanisms" as you suggest. I just do not see it. No way.

I know this is not what you want to here especially on this message board but that is what I experienced.

rapologist: you are going OT of this thread - but since I am not a moderator (which I tried to imply when starting the thread) I cannot do much about it. Thanks Rick for all the info you have posted.

Rapologist - you seem to be obsessed with promoting WE. In the quote above you talk about how Werner could listen to a person for hours. Why did he do that? Simply to make the person into a Werner fan so he could use that person to build his pyramid scheme. The same thing goes on in every forum. I have seen it myself and I can agree that the forum leaders seem to be very "friendly" to the person that is in the spotlight. But is is all part of mind control. Forum leaders have trained in that way of "coaching" by Landmark. It is a way to seem like you are a benevolent human being. But what happens if someone is resisting the "coaching". They will be belittered and if the forum leader cannot turn the "coachee" to "get it" they will probably be thrown out of the course. I have seen that happen.

There is no way to win against a forum leader. I have heard them say that. So it is a matter of pushing the "coachee" either to submission or "out". It is very abusive.

You seem very uninterested in knowing the "truth" about WE. You are simply here to confuse. Typical esthole behaviour. You have probably lost some of your "critical" thinking.

What do you have to say about people that have suffered psychosis during the est/forum courses? Anything?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2008 01:26AM by nettie.

rapologist:

Good-bye.

Quote
nettie

Rapologist - you seem to be obsessed with promoting WE. In the quote above you talk about how Werner could listen to a person for hours. Why did he do that? Simply to make the person into a Werner fan so he could use that person to build his pyramid scheme. The same thing goes on in every forum. I have seen it myself and I can agree that the forum leaders seem to be very "friendly" to the person that is in the spotlight. But is is all part of mind control. Forum leaders have trained in that way of "coaching" by Landmark. It is a way to seem like you are a benevolent human being. But what happens if someone is resisting the "coaching". They will be belittered and if the forum leader cannot turn the "coachee" to "get it" they will probably be thrown out of the course. I have seen that happen.

Yep and worse. ALL the forum leaders I was unfortunate enough to be "exposed" to (like a disease) had fluffy, well rehearsed, glossy outsides. Expose that and look beneath to see a dark, self obsessed, selfish and evil core. The behaivor I have witnessed is little short of illegal. They are several notches below child abusers and its time laws were created to deal with them in a manner befitting the damage they inflict to individuals and society as a whole. If I came across one of their paths in future I would have to restrain the urge to chin the evil little prick.

Bunch of parrasites the lot of them......