Trolling as Phobia Implantation? A Speculation

Again, it puts things in perspective to read what 'Makeup' posted--her husband's boss pressured him to take Landmark despite her husband having a medical condition that LEC's own health advice form advises to be incompatible with participation.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Makeup's humanity stands in contrast with the recent performance of 'rapologist.'

This being said, I have a possibly paranoid speculation...just something from someone who has read a few too many spy novels:

Might it be possible, that people actually have reason to want to get themselves banned from the RR.com message board?

That there are circumstances where this could have a potential pay off?

Some, for personal reasons might treat ejection from RR.com as an badge of honor.

Or, perhaps being banned from the message board could in some cases, (just my imagination) actually be required as a condition for promotion to high rank within some organizations that dislike what RR.com is about.

For if these hypothetical persons later decided they wanted to leave that organization, they might feel afraid to defect, fearing they have no place else to go, and have burned all their bridges.

Worse, they might feel their previous trolling made them permanently unwelcome to RR.com and they'd hesitate to use RR.com as a resource for their own healing--a sort of phobia implantation.

Get a person to troll RR.com and get banned, to ensure that even if they later defect, they might never feel able to talk openly on RR.com.

If this is the case, and if people are encouraged to troll and be banned from RR.com to ensure they will if they later defect, feel avoidant of RR.com this would be a tragic outcome.

Again, I dont know if this is actually done, but its not a concept foreign to
espionage tactics--at least as described in spy novels.

If anyone has once been a troll here, and later genuinely recognizes that they would appreciate being able to enjoy an honest and respectful discussion in RR.com's unique and protected environment, plus its splendid
research archive--

In the words of the old Motel 6 ad, RR.com will keep the light on for you, and a place at the table when your trolling days are truly over.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2008 11:21PM by corboy.

Like Rapologist I too had direct contact with Werner. Unlike him I do not support him or any of the organizational offshoots such as Landmark Education. They are coercive, manipulative and totally suppresive of critical thinking and fredom of personal difference. At the hand of my mother, I was pushed into taking the EST training at the tender age of 12 years of age. I will say that I chose the adult version versus the childrens version, but the difference is still minor.

The dammage done was years of lowered self esteem from continued psychological abuse from my family especially my mother. My mother fit with EST and Landmark Education very well as she suffered from the Narcicist Personality Disorder. If you have Narcicistic traits or the disorder, you will fit well with LGATs, but if not, you will find yourself fighting for your own sense of self worth.

Indeed these organization do nothing but dammage the very sense of who and what we are as human beings. However, I do not blame the teachers, I blame those like Werner and Hubbard, they were and truly are the ones responsible for creating organizations which are not healthy. The teachers have been just as manipulated and changed as the ones they are trying to convert to the mindset they are promoting.

Werner was a self absorbed man with a dynamic charisma. However, if one were to look a little closer, one would see more. One could see the cruelty hiding behind the so called "teacher" facade. He had a good poker face, I will give him that and he had such certainty that it borderlined on manic levels. Werner was emotionally empty, a complete and total vacum of a man. A man who IMO had no soul at all. No empathy, no kindness and no compassion. In all my memories of this man, all I remember seeing and experiencing was something which made no sense to my young mind and maturing emotions. I wanted to get out and yet I could not because my mother also worked for him. Yet at the same time it was familiar, Werner was very much like my mother. All narciscist share the same traits, lacking empathy, a sense of entitlement, high degrees of certainty, cruel and malicious behavior and a totalitatian authority.

Why are my observations and perceptions so different from Rapologist, yet we saw the same man. I do take and listen to the words of others, I do pay attention to media and I critically think and compare and contrast what is presented before me. My perceptions and experiences can be manipulated by those who know how. It was done well to me and I am glad I now can see clearly.

I think it is amazing that these people talk about clarity, but the don't even come close to it. True clarity comes from developing higher order critical thinking skill, using established standards of thought and perhaps even a level of personal discipline. Not from being beaten psychologicaly by someone who wants you to "GET IT."

I can say that one thing I developed from dealing with these types of individuals, was learning that you cannot win against them in their own territory. Don't fight, get out and keep your distance.

'mysticjaw' wrote:

Quote

you cannot win against them in their own territory.

That is the heart of the matter. That is why they want you to go to these LGAT deals, do not want you to know ahead of time, what will happen and insist on doing this stuff in a controlled environment, often with its own special jargon.

You are entering territory where you are set up to become disoriented and to feel like a loser in relation to the leader who acts as the winner.

In earlier discussions, this was likened to trying to win a game where you think its an honest game, but the truth is, the cards are marked, so the game is really not a game at all...you are set up to lose.

This is why we gave so much time to examining the room set up--and possibly why this dicussion thread attracted a truly astounding number of trolls--as if someone didnt want us to examine any of this.

[forum.culteducation.com]

IMO this thread is one of the best things that exists on the RR.com message board. Yet it is also not fully appreciated, because most of us have been socialized, US style, to assume we are fully autonomous and impervious to outside influences. It is deeply threatening to face how very easily our sense of self and boundedness can be punctured by our being placed in a particular sort of room environment.

It is too bad we could not have gotten 20 bucks from every pert and chirpy visitor who showed up telling us, 'Give me information on how I can out-think (LGAT in question).'

LGAts are designed to get under the skin of exactly those persons who pride themselves on assuming they are too special (narcissistic?) and too intelligent to fall for such stuff and can out-think any situation.

If you think you can out smart an LGAT you may be narcissistic enough to be enthralled by an LGAT--for the LGAT is set up to inflame narcissism itself.

Even if a narcissistic bully goes through a phase of being abused and dumped on in an LGAT, he or she will be enthralled to behold the leader, a successful narcissist, being petted and adored. The suffering narcissist who is in the early stages of being broken in to the new society of the LGAT, sees a vision of narcissistic fulfillment by beholding the adulation enjoyed by the leader who is orchestrating the bullying.

So..the new member will gladly endure a period of probationary bullying, not because he or she has become humble and broken down his or her ego, but because he or she is energized by seeing a newer and better way to exist as a narcissistic leader---stay in that LGAT and become a successful narcissist oneself...by becoming one of the LGAT leaders!

Werner Erhard can rescue a person from a threatened narcissistic depression that has been incurred in relation to failed relationships with non narcissistic adult peers in mainstream society.

Werner may do this by functioning as an ideal mirror self to someone threatned by narcissistic depression but who wants to avoid facing his or her inner ache.

Instead, one avoids the depths but focusing outward on the vision of Werner, narcissistic just like oneself, but who has created an entire world that has validated his narcissism, rather than challenging him to face his inner frailty.

Werner offers narcissistic hope by offering 1) a closed society where one is rewarded for narcissism and 2) witnesses legions of successful narcissists--but who are successful only if they stay within the confines of LGATs and continue to recruit others into this closed society as well.

(Or learn the tech, then sneak away and start your own LGAT later)

One of Werner Erhards prize recruits was a well regarded academic philosopher, now deceased, WW Bartley III, who co authored the adulatory biography, Werner Erhard: The Transformation of a Man, the Founding of EST.

Bartley was an authority on Wittgenstein and other modern philosophers. If a brilliant man like this could pulled in, and remain an apostle of Werner's until death, anyone could.

LGATs know how easily we are influenced, and yet distract us by selling a dream of total autonomy--a narcissistic agenda, BTW. Yet, while telling us we are fully autonomous and make our own reality via our thoughts, the LGATs exploit that this is not really true at all--that we are mightily affected by our bodies.

And to influence our bodies, the LGATs have to coax us into their territory--exactly as mysticjaw has said.

It should be noted that some entities may enhance the impact of the LGAT format but holding such events in foreign countries, ensuring the subjects will already have jet lag and be easier to supervise as they will be bunched up in a hotel when not in the auditorium.

Yet others may use LGAT tech under the guise of something totally different such as the trappings of Hinduism. One such guru, Muktananda (siddha yoga) was a friend of Werner Erhards and reportedly incorporated EST tech into his intensives---seemingly based on ancient Hinduism.

[forum.culteducation.com]

And for mysticjaw and anyone pondering the impact of narcissistic leaders,
here is a reading list.

Reading material on narcissism for those interested.

There are articles and discussions on narcissism (see the list of article topics in right hand sidebar in this blog authored by an anonymous psychiatrist who states he (writes like a guy--and I enjoy this!) is an academic and, among other things, does consultations on forensic (criminal legal) issues. You may not agree with all he says, but give him credit--he even writes about the dysfunction he has seen in psychiatrists' own families.

[thelastpsychiatrist.com]

Here is LP's list of articles on narcissism. Scroll down

[thelastpsychiatrist.com]

Here is one of LP's musings on how narcissism can develop:

"Part of their development comes from not learning that there is a right and wrong that exists outside them. This may come from inconsistent parenting:

Dad says, "you stupid kid, don't watch TV, TV is bad, it'll make you stupid!" Ok. Lesson learned. But then one day Dad has to do some work: "stop making so much noise! Here, sit down and watch TV." What's the learned message? It isn't that TV is sometimes good and sometimes bad. It's that good and bad are decided by the person with the most power.

So the goal in development is to become the one with the most power. Hence, narcissists can be dogmatic ("adultery is immoral!") and hypocrites ("well, she came on to me, and you were ignoring me at home") at the same time.

There is no right and wrong-- only right and wrong for them. (Corboy put this sentence from Last Psychiatrist's article in bold font, for emphasis. This is the inner core of LGATs)

He's an exaggerated example: if they have to kill someone to get what they want, then so be it. But when they murder, they don't actually think what they're doing is wrong--they're saying, "I know it's illegal, but if you understood the whole situation, you'd understand..."

**(Corboy writes, See? If you only 'got it' in the EST sense, you'd see it isnt wrong...')

Last Psychiatrist notes:

"Narcissists never feel guilt. Only shame."

[thelastpsychiatrist.com] 2.html

In my opinion, the must-read book for people who have served time in cults or families run to serve the public reputation of a leader is pschologist Len Oakes' book, Prophetic Charisma. Oakes was able to interview charismatic leaders of 20 different groups and sects. He found that none of them had the ability to enjoy intimate, non manipulative relationships with adult peers and all twenty had important gaps in thier emotional and social development, for which they had compensated by becoming avid students of social and emotional manipulation. Paradoxicaly, these men and women were able to elicit vulnerability and passionate loyalty from their followers, but were unable to reciprocate.

Some selections from Oakes book can be read here. The bibliography goes up to 1995/6

Reading material on narcissism for those interested.

There are articles and discussions on narcissism (see the list of article topics in right hand sidebar in this blog authored by an anonymous psychiatrist who states he (writes like a guy--and I enjoy this!) is an academic and, among other things, does consultations on forensic (criminal legal) issues. You may not agree with all he says, but give him credit--he even writes about the dysfunction he has seen in psychiatrists' own families.

[thelastpsychiatrist.com]

Here is LP's list of articles on narcissism. Scroll down

[thelastpsychiatrist.com]

Here is one of LP's musings on how narcissism can develop:

"Part of their development comes from not learning that there is a right and wrong that exists outside them. This may come from inconsistent parenting:

Dad says, "you stupid kid, don't watch TV, TV is bad, it'll make you stupid!" Ok. Lesson learned. But then one day Dad has to do some work: "stop making so much noise! Here, sit down and watch TV." What's the learned message? It isn't that TV is sometimes good and sometimes bad. It's that good and bad are decided by the person with the most power.

So the goal in development is to become the one with the most power. Hence, narcissists can be dogmatic ("adultery is immoral!") and hypocrites ("well, she came on to me, and you were ignoring me at home") at the same time. There is no right and wrong-- only right and wrong for them. He's an exaggerated example: if they have to kill someone to get what they want, then so be it. But when they murder, they don't actually think what they're doing is wrong--they're saying, "I know it's illegal, but if you understood the whole situation, you'd understand..."

Narcissists never feel guilt. Only shame."

[thelastpsychiatrist.com] 2.html

In my opinion, the must-read book for people who have served time in cults or families run to serve the public reputation of a leader is pschologist Len Oakes' book, Prophetic Charisma. Oakes was able to interview charismatic leaders of 20 different groups and sects. He found that none of them had the ability to enjoy intimate, non manipulative relationships with adult peers and all twenty had important gaps in thier emotional and social development, for which they had compensated by becoming avid students of social and emotional manipulation. Paradoxicaly, these men and women were able to elicit vulnerability and passionate loyalty from their followers, but were unable to reciprocate.

Some selections from Oakes book can be read here. The bibliography goes up to 1995/6

[sustainedaction.org]

Finally, some advice: Beware of discussion portals that are owned and moderated by persons who are *not* trained and licensed mental health professionals.

and Pressman and Pressman wrote a book some time back entitled
Narcissistic Families.

Though they did not see fit to apply the concept further, some of what they discuss might well apply to LGATs and also to life in the close entourage of an LGAT leader.

I am convinced that Werner and people like him would have hand picked those who were close members of his inner circle.

The thing with NPD is that if someone is successful at creating a little tribe that is based on NPD values, prospect for healing is remote.

The one hope a person suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder has for healing, is to, at some point, feel a lack, a sense of emptiness in him or herself. This often happens if the NPD sufferer finds he or she is out of synch with people who are capable of enjoying closeness with adult equals and who insist that the NPD person reciprocate their loyalty--something that the NPD person will have a lot of trouble doing.

But if a charismatic NPD person sidesteps intimacy (which he or she just is not very good at) by seeking not love but POWER, and can create an entire society oriented around NPD priorities, the NPD leader and those followers who have this same set of developmental deficits will not feel empty and will not feel a lack within themselves.

They will feel validated and empowered by being in an organization that is itself a narcissistic family.

This is the long term attraction of LGATs, no matter what they are called or their belief system.

And because these are NPD organizations, they are insatiable. The essence of NPD is that no amount of validation or mirroring is ever enough.

New conquests are always needed to bolster the image.

And as the leaders get older this becomes yet more urgent.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 02:14AM by corboy.

Quote
mysticjaw
Like Rapologist I too had direct contact with Werner. Unlike him I do not support him or any of the organizational offshoots such as Landmark Education. They are coercive, manipulative and totally suppresive of critical thinking and fredom of personal difference. At the hand of my mother, I was pushed into taking the EST training at the tender age of 12 years of age. I will say that I chose the adult version versus the childrens version, but the difference is still minor.

The dammage done was years of lowered self esteem from continued psychological abuse from my family especially my mother. My mother fit with EST and Landmark Education very well as she suffered from the Narcicist Personality Disorder. If you have Narcicistic traits or the disorder, you will fit well with LGATs, but if not, you will find yourself fighting for your own sense of self worth.

Indeed these organization do nothing but dammage the very sense of who and what we are as human beings. However, I do not blame the teachers, I blame those like Werner and Hubbard, they were and truly are the ones responsible for creating organizations which are not healthy. The teachers have been just as manipulated and changed as the ones they are trying to convert to the mindset they are promoting.

Werner was a self absorbed man with a dynamic charisma. However, if one were to look a little closer, one would see more. One could see the cruelty hiding behind the so called "teacher" facade. He had a good poker face, I will give him that and he had such certainty that it borderlined on manic levels. Werner was emotionally empty, a complete and total vacum of a man. A man who IMO had no soul at all. No empathy, no kindness and no compassion. In all my memories of this man, all I remember seeing and experiencing was something which made no sense to my young mind and maturing emotions. I wanted to get out and yet I could not because my mother also worked for him. Yet at the same time it was familiar, Werner was very much like my mother. All narciscist share the same traits, lacking empathy, a sense of entitlement, high degrees of certainty, cruel and malicious behavior and a totalitatian authority.

Why are my observations and perceptions so different from Rapologist, yet we saw the same man. I do take and listen to the words of others, I do pay attention to media and I critically think and compare and contrast what is presented before me. My perceptions and experiences can be manipulated by those who know how. It was done well to me and I am glad I now can see clearly.

I think it is amazing that these people talk about clarity, but the don't even come close to it. True clarity comes from developing higher order critical thinking skill, using established standards of thought and perhaps even a level of personal discipline. Not from being beaten psychologicaly by someone who wants you to "GET IT."

I can say that one thing I developed from dealing with these types of individuals, was learning that you cannot win against them in their own territory. Don't fight, get out and keep your distance.

mysticjaw,
Thank you for sharing.
We appreciate your words and the wealth of information imparted in your post.

Have the deepest respect for all the people who have suffered through a lgat experience.
Am not sure about the theory that people attracted to LGATs are narcissists though.
If I remember correctly,(and sorry can't find the original study:will see if I can track it down at some point ) someone did a study on personality types amongst cult members and found they were typical of outside society,and did not show signs of any particular personality disorder.
In the absence of studies to the contrary, maybe this could be generalized to those who join LGATS as well?
Actually, in some groups, calling members narcissists or egotists can be a common put down/form of control used by cult leaders to make people conform.
And it may make it harder for people to leave groups, if you try to convince them that the reason they joined was because they were psychologically damaged.

Yasmin, the group Spiritual Rights Foundation, claimed that their former member Steve Sachez who wrote "Spiritual Perversion," was psychologically dammaged prior to his involvement with the group. Its much easier to scapegoat than take any real responsiblity for what was done to an individual. And yes, it puts the responsibility back in the hands of the former member.

In regards to personality types and cult members, the fact is that most are a sampling of the general populace, not in any way psychologically impaired. The point I am making here though is that narcicists tend to fit more closely with the the cult ideal. Not a pretty sight.

My whole family has been involved with cults/LGATS and other subversive organizations for over thirty years to one extent or another. Although today few are actually participating, they never left the groups mentally. As a result, I can no longer be around my family and I have had to distance myself from them and their manipulations. It is a sad situation. However, I can say that my entire family has suffered in one form or another from LGAT's and other subversive organizations.

Ok - here are a few people that I have met personally;

Miss Y - a former girlfriend of mine. Suffered borderline psychosis during the advanced course. Was kicked out and ended up in a psychiatric ward. Is still suffering from the ill effects. She has no job and is according to her mother being manic. She did the forum in 1993.

Hans Linder: an ex girlfriends brother who I personally recruited. He killed himself by hanging 1,5 years after he started participate in the "landmark eductional programmes". He suffered severe depression

Myself: became hypomanic after the forum and the advanced course. Got down to earth after 3 months during a catch with the flu.

Miss Y2 - a former girlfriend of mine. Was kicked out during the advanced course. She became manic and wanted to go on a revenge bout. Sister of Hans who killed himself.

Miss Emma: participated in the swedish TVprogramme Cold Facts. She tried to jump out of a window while suffering a mental breakdown (unclear what type). Her mother stopped her. Breakdown occurred during the "empty and meaningless"-lecture during the forum.

Mr T. - was picked up running around naked on a stockholm street on the monday after the forum.

Then of course the woman I met somewhere on the globe who was threathened by her forum leader husband to the point where she had to flee their home - never to return.

Plus many others who have communicated with me via youtube

nettie/Lars/nisseberka
when will society wake up?

Plus a few others that were part of the TVprogramme.

Quote
yasmin
...Am not sure about the theory that people attracted to LGATs are narcissists though.
If I remember correctly,(and sorry can't find the original study:will see if I can track it down at some point ) someone did a study on personality types amongst cult members and found they were typical of outside society,and did not show signs of any particular personality disorder.
In the absence of studies to the contrary, maybe this could be generalized to those who join LGATS as well?
Actually, in some groups, calling members narcissists or egotists can be a common put down/form of control used by cult leaders to make people conform.
And it may make it harder for people to leave groups, if you try to convince them that the reason they joined was because they were psychologically damaged.

It isn't that those attracted to LGATs are narcissists but that those attracted to these groups have their narcissistic tendencies preyed upon and enhanced. These groups target some inner, immature longing to be treated as special. Sadly, there are many who didn't receive this kind of devoted attention and adoration as very young children, (or didn't receive enough of it). The designers of these programs recognize this fairly common human need and run with it, capitalizing on it and leveraging it into big bucks for themselves. They know that ordinary alienation or loneliness harks back to some primal fear of abandonment. They can tap into this fear quite easily with someone who has recently had "relationship" problems, for instance. It's a nasty business all around. The leaders know full well what they are doing. They use people's vulnerabilities against them.


Ellen

Quote
elena

Quote
yasmin
...Am not sure about the theory that people attracted to LGATs are narcissists though.
If I remember correctly,(and sorry can't find the original study:will see if I can track it down at some point ) someone did a study on personality types amongst cult members and found they were typical of outside society,and did not show signs of any particular personality disorder.
In the absence of studies to the contrary, maybe this could be generalized to those who join LGATS as well?
Actually, in some groups, calling members narcissists or egotists can be a common put down/form of control used by cult leaders to make people conform.
And it may make it harder for people to leave groups, if you try to convince them that the reason they joined was because they were psychologically damaged.

It isn't that those attracted to LGATs are narcissists but that those attracted to these groups have their narcissistic tendencies preyed upon and enhanced. These groups target some inner, immature longing to be treated as special. Sadly, there are many who didn't receive this kind of devoted attention and adoration as very young children, (or didn't receive enough of it). The designers of these programs recognize this fairly common human need and run with it, capitalizing on it and leveraging it into big bucks for themselves. They know that ordinary alienation or loneliness harks back to some primal fear of abandonment. They can tap into this fear quite easily with someone who has recently had "relationship" problems, for instance. It's a nasty business all around. The leaders know full well what they are doing. They use people's vulnerabilities against them.


Ellen

Very true Ellen. My ex was exactly in this group you describe. Landmark is a parrasite, and like all parrasites they have a profile for their prey. Some or all of the following? -

Overt confidence (but built on deep rooted insecurity)
Confused belief systems (religious but not sure why they are)
Feeling of wanting to belong
Tendency to adopt "different" solutions to life's complexity
Tendency to want to be told how to "think" (but curiously very outspoken)
Childish yearning for "Black or White" definitions which reject "Greyness"
Extreme yearning to "Make a difference" to themselves and others.
narcissists yes, if not a more subtle form of continual self analysis

She told me Landmark had made her a better person, what she couldn't see was the self obsessed monster she had become. I recall ridiculous conversations about all kinds of topics which I can now see where Landmark induced. The X files was on once, I asked her if she believed in Aliens. Answer "They don't exist". I really should have left it there! I went on to ask her why - "because there is no evidence they exist". Having a Physics degree I went through a very logical discussion about the number of Stars and potential earthlike planets and the fact thet they could exist but we haven't met them yet. No dice, my logically argued case is labelled as "wrong". Then it occurred to me - she is using the Landmark method of statement, ie "I declare that Aliens don't exist therfore they don't". I then thought of pointing out that her faith in the existence of God seemed to be in conflict with this (ie - where is the evidence!) but decided against it! It was this conversation and others that contributed to finding this and other sites, thank God! (excuse the pun).

All Landmark drones I came across where exactly the same. Wrapped up in there own little world of smugness with their "transformed" way of dealing with the world and others The biggest pity of it all being they just can't see what's been done to them and the insufferable, self obsessed, arrogant monsters they come across as.

I just found out my brother is involved in Men's Division International. I am concerned on many levels as I have been unsuccessful in finding information about this organization other than it is a step off to landmark, EST and lifespring.

Can anyone provide me some detail as to what this organization does besides arrange for secret meetings, offer retreat weekends and hold high regard for their members. Do they allow limited participation or is it an organization that requires full particiaption meaning do they rule what my brother does? Is he financially obligated to this group? Do I need to be concerned that he is the power of attorney over my mother's estate as well as the executor of her will while being involved in this?

My brother commented that he is doing a one day initiation for men on Sunday and then a three day initiation next month. I asked him if he facilitates the groups and he denied and explained that he does not run the groups but he could but has a few things he would like to achieve before coming more involved.

If I am in the wrong thread please forgive me and direct me to the appropriate place.