'mysticjaw' wrote:
Quote
you cannot win against them in their own territory.
That is the heart of the matter. That is why they want you to go to these LGAT deals, do not want you to know ahead of time, what will happen and insist on doing this stuff in a controlled environment, often with its own special jargon.
You
are entering territory where you are set up to become disoriented and to feel like a loser in relation to the leader who acts as the winner.
In earlier discussions, this was likened to trying to win a game where you think its an honest game, but the truth is, the cards are marked, so the game is really not a game at all...you are set up to lose.
This is why we gave so much time to examining the room set up--and possibly why this dicussion thread attracted a truly astounding number of trolls--as if someone didnt want us to examine any of this.
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forum.culteducation.com]
IMO this thread is one of the best things that exists on the RR.com message board. Yet it is also not fully appreciated, because most of us have been socialized, US style, to assume we are fully autonomous and impervious to outside influences. It is deeply threatening to face how very easily our sense of self and boundedness can be punctured by our being placed in a particular sort of room environment.
It is too bad we could not have gotten 20 bucks from every pert and chirpy visitor who showed up telling us, 'Give me information on how I can out-think (LGAT in question).'
LGAts are designed to get under the skin of exactly those persons who pride themselves on assuming they are too special (narcissistic?) and too intelligent to fall for such stuff and can out-think any situation.
If you think you can out smart an LGAT you may be narcissistic enough to be enthralled by an LGAT--for the LGAT is set up to inflame narcissism itself.Even if a narcissistic bully goes through a phase of being abused and dumped on in an LGAT, he or she will be enthralled to behold the leader,
a successful narcissist, being petted and adored. The suffering narcissist who is in the early stages of being broken in to the new society of the LGAT, sees a vision of narcissistic fulfillment by beholding the adulation enjoyed by the leader who is orchestrating the bullying.
So..the new member will gladly endure a period of probationary bullying, not because he or she has become humble and broken down his or her ego, but because he or she is energized by seeing a newer and better way to exist as a narcissistic leader---stay in that LGAT and become a successful narcissist oneself...by becoming one of the LGAT leaders!
Werner Erhard can rescue a person from a threatened narcissistic depression that has been incurred in relation to failed relationships with non narcissistic adult peers in mainstream society.
Werner may do this by functioning as an ideal mirror self to someone threatned by narcissistic depression but who wants to avoid facing his or her inner ache.
Instead, one avoids the depths but focusing outward on the vision of Werner, narcissistic just like oneself, but who has created an entire world that has validated his narcissism, rather than challenging him to face his inner frailty.
Werner offers narcissistic hope by offering 1) a closed society where one is rewarded for narcissism and 2) witnesses legions of successful narcissists--but who are successful only if they stay within the confines of LGATs and continue to recruit others into this closed society as well.
(Or learn the tech, then sneak away and start your own LGAT later)
One of Werner Erhards prize recruits was a well regarded academic philosopher, now deceased, WW Bartley III, who co authored the adulatory biography, Werner
Erhard: The Transformation of a Man, the Founding of EST.
Bartley was an authority on Wittgenstein and other modern philosophers. If a brilliant man like this could pulled in, and remain an apostle of Werner's until death, anyone could.
LGATs know how easily we are influenced, and yet distract us by selling a dream of total autonomy--a narcissistic agenda, BTW. Yet, while telling us we are fully autonomous and make our own reality via our thoughts, the LGATs exploit that this is not really true at all--that we are mightily affected by our bodies.
And to influence our bodies, the LGATs have to coax us into their territory--exactly as mysticjaw has said.
It should be noted that some entities may enhance the impact of the LGAT format but holding such events in foreign countries, ensuring the subjects will already have jet lag and be easier to supervise as they will be bunched up in a hotel when not in the auditorium.
Yet others may use LGAT tech under the guise of something totally different such as the trappings of Hinduism. One such guru, Muktananda (siddha yoga) was a friend of Werner Erhards and reportedly incorporated EST tech into his intensives---seemingly based on ancient Hinduism.
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forum.culteducation.com]
And for mysticjaw and anyone pondering the impact of narcissistic leaders,
here is a reading list.
Reading material on narcissism for those interested.
There are articles and discussions on narcissism (see the list of article topics in right hand sidebar in this blog authored by an anonymous psychiatrist who states he (writes like a guy--and I enjoy this!) is an academic and, among other things, does consultations on forensic (criminal legal) issues. You may not agree with all he says, but give him credit--he even writes about the dysfunction he has seen in psychiatrists' own families.
[
thelastpsychiatrist.com]
Here is LP's list of articles on narcissism. Scroll down
[
thelastpsychiatrist.com]
Here is one of LP's musings on how narcissism can develop:
"Part of their development comes from not learning that there is a right and wrong that exists outside them. This may come from inconsistent parenting:
Dad says, "you stupid kid, don't watch TV, TV is bad, it'll make you stupid!" Ok. Lesson learned. But then one day Dad has to do some work: "stop making so much noise! Here, sit down and watch TV." What's the learned message? It isn't that TV is sometimes good and sometimes bad. It's that good and bad are decided by the person with the most power.
So the goal in development is to become the one with the most power. Hence, narcissists can be dogmatic ("adultery is immoral!") and hypocrites ("well, she came on to me, and you were ignoring me at home") at the same time.
There is no right and wrong-- only right and wrong for them. (Corboy put this sentence from Last Psychiatrist's article in bold font, for emphasis. This is the inner core of LGATs)
He's an exaggerated example: if they have to kill someone to get what they want, then so be it. But when they murder, they don't actually think what they're doing is wrong--they're saying, "I know it's illegal, but
if you understood the whole situation, you'd understand..."**(Corboy writes, See? If you only 'got it' in the EST sense, you'd see it isnt wrong...')
Last Psychiatrist notes:
"Narcissists never feel guilt. Only shame."
[
thelastpsychiatrist.com] 2.html
In my opinion, the must-read book for people who have served time in cults or families run to serve the public reputation of a leader is pschologist Len Oakes' book,
Prophetic Charisma. Oakes was able to interview charismatic leaders of 20 different groups and sects. He found that none of them had the ability to enjoy intimate, non manipulative relationships with adult peers and all twenty had important gaps in thier emotional and social development, for which they had compensated by becoming avid students of social and emotional manipulation. Paradoxicaly, these men and women were able to elicit vulnerability and passionate loyalty from their followers, but were unable to reciprocate.
Some selections from Oakes book can be read here. The bibliography goes up to 1995/6
Reading material on narcissism for those interested.
There are articles and discussions on narcissism (see the list of article topics in right hand sidebar in this blog authored by an anonymous psychiatrist who states he (writes like a guy--and I enjoy this!) is an academic and, among other things, does consultations on forensic (criminal legal) issues. You may not agree with all he says, but give him credit--he even writes about the dysfunction he has seen in psychiatrists' own families.
[
thelastpsychiatrist.com]
Here is LP's list of articles on narcissism. Scroll down
[
thelastpsychiatrist.com]
Here is one of LP's musings on how narcissism can develop:
"Part of their development comes from not learning that there is a right and wrong that exists outside them. This may come from inconsistent parenting:
Dad says, "you stupid kid, don't watch TV, TV is bad, it'll make you stupid!" Ok. Lesson learned. But then one day Dad has to do some work: "stop making so much noise! Here, sit down and watch TV." What's the learned message? It isn't that TV is sometimes good and sometimes bad. It's that good and bad are decided by the person with the most power.
So the goal in development is to become the one with the most power. Hence, narcissists can be dogmatic ("adultery is immoral!") and hypocrites ("well, she came on to me, and you were ignoring me at home") at the same time. There is no right and wrong-- only right and wrong for them. He's an exaggerated example: if they have to kill someone to get what they want, then so be it. But when they murder, they don't actually think what they're doing is wrong--they're saying, "I know it's illegal, but if you understood the whole situation, you'd understand..."
Narcissists never feel guilt. Only shame."
[
thelastpsychiatrist.com] 2.html
In my opinion, the must-read book for people who have served time in cults or families run to serve the public reputation of a leader is pschologist Len Oakes' book, Prophetic Charisma. Oakes was able to interview charismatic leaders of 20 different groups and sects. He found that none of them had the ability to enjoy intimate, non manipulative relationships with adult peers and all twenty had important gaps in thier emotional and social development, for which they had compensated by becoming avid students of social and emotional manipulation. Paradoxicaly, these men and women were able to elicit vulnerability and passionate loyalty from their followers, but were unable to reciprocate.
Some selections from Oakes book can be read here. The bibliography goes up to 1995/6
[
sustainedaction.org]
Finally, some advice: Beware of discussion portals that are owned and moderated by persons who are *not* trained and licensed mental health professionals.
and Pressman and Pressman wrote a book some time back entitled
Narcissistic Families.
Though they did not see fit to apply the concept further, some of what they discuss might well apply to LGATs and also to life in the close entourage of an LGAT leader.
I am convinced that Werner and people like him would have hand picked those who were close members of his inner circle.
The thing with NPD is that if someone is successful at creating a little tribe that is based on NPD values, prospect for healing is remote.
The one hope a person suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder has for healing, is to, at some point, feel a lack, a sense of emptiness in him or herself. This often happens if the NPD sufferer finds he or she is out of synch with people who are capable of enjoying closeness with adult equals and who insist that the NPD person reciprocate their loyalty--something that the NPD person will have a lot of trouble doing.
But if a charismatic NPD person sidesteps intimacy (which he or she just is not very good at) by seeking not love but POWER, and can create an entire society oriented around NPD priorities, the NPD leader and those followers who have this same set of developmental deficits will not feel empty and will not feel a lack within themselves.
They will feel validated and empowered by being in an organization that is itself a narcissistic family.
This is the long term attraction of LGATs, no matter what they are called or their belief system.
And because these are NPD organizations, they are insatiable. The essence of NPD is that no amount of validation or mirroring is ever enough.
New conquests are always needed to bolster the image.
And as the leaders get older this becomes yet more urgent.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 02:14AM by corboy.