Now I do feel sick.

Will write again soon

Vegiegardener

My best advice is to try to stay away fro direct contact with landmark and landmarkers. Do what you can to spread the word. Talk to every contact that you may have in common. Warn them.

Hi guys

I mentioned in an earlier post that my brother had called me a victim. I'd like to tell you how it happened (this one for me is a real cruncher): We had been talking about a family asset which I've understood would one day in the future come to me. He said some things which suggested to me that he intended to take ownership of that asset. This made me angry and I said words to the effect of "have it then!" He then called me a 'victim'. I asked why (why did he think I was a victim) and he said because I wasn't going to fight for what is rightfully mine. WOW. That is warped and nasty, nasty, nasty thinking. The concepts of kinship and family have been obliterated and replaced by 'the game of life'. I appear to be a meaningless chess piece in his meaningless game. (I read this analogy to a chess game somewhere else, - in relation to Landmark thinking- not sure where). He even acknowledged that that asset was 'rightfully' mine, but that did not hinder his desire to acquire. Am I right, that this conversation is another sign of Landmarker thinking?

I would like to deconstruct this stuff. It seems that the moment they can label someone as a 'victim', they are then 'able to' justify (in their own minds) any sort of nastiness towards that person. Wow, wow, wow. And they have absolutely no idea of what victims they are, themselves. Do Landmarkers ever cry???

I've also decided I have to get some sort of verification of his (present) involvement before I go any further. How I will do this I don't yet know.

Thanks so much all of you for your feedback, and to RR for this website.

Vegiegardner

Being a ~victim,~ in Landmarkland, is the equivalent of being a loser or a whiner or something similar. There are ~no victims,~ according to Werner Erhard, only "volunteers," or some other such nonsense. They don't differentiate between victims of crime or abuse and victims of a confidence game -- they're all contemptible and the lowest of the low. If you admit to any feelings of sadness, shame, remorse, grief, embarrassment, or humiliation you are one of these pathetic beasts and not even worthy of pity as you have ~created the reality~ of your victimhood and deserve to suffer. You can imagine the type of criminal/sociopathic mind that would come up with something like this as part of a life philosophy. Werner Erhard was a jerk.


Ellen

Veggiegardener,

Pardon my bluntness, but your Brother really has you running around in a vicious circle here. You seem to be both afraid of the truth, and scared sh*tl*ss to cut to the quick and ask him the truth. Kinda like not being able to bite through a giant hunk of beef gristle. I feel for you, but am afraid to say any more out of fear of sounding even more like an Est trainer (shiver....brrrrr).

Thank you very much for the info Elena. I will take it from your description that Landmarkers never cry.

Pauker- I can see how it appears like that, and I really appreciate your feedback and carefully chosen words. Nettie gave some advice four posts above to stay away from direct contact with Landmarkers. I also read a book a few years ago called 'Stalking the soul' (by Marie-France Hirigoyen) whose advice was also to stay away from such people. My brother, I believe, is a Landmarker. So the advice given by these two people whom I respect are my reasons for not confronting him. (Nettie, please let me know if I have misunderstood.) I'm not afraid of the truth and would like to know right now, what his involvement is (or is not). If I asked him straight up, "What is your involvement in Landmark Education?", I expect he will tell me to F-O and some other choice words. (I suppose I could be wrong, but I can't imagine him telling me the truth in the detail I'd like to know it.) Plus, he will then know that I know, if he doesn't already. It will completely change the dynamics of things. I'm also aware that whatever I write here is not private, it's here for the world to see...including my brother if he should be so 'paranoid' (as he has called me), but I will say that I've started making some other enquiries (but I won't be writing any details about them here).
Thanks again Pauker, I appreciate your directness and can certainly handle it.

Vegiegardener

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Vegiegardener
Hi all

I have not done any Landmark courses but am trying to understand things as I am concerned for someone whom I believe has been involved for about ten years.

My question is: how does Landmark continue to extract money from people who have done all their courses? Is this where "Vanto" comes in? Do people get moved up to a new level of money-making? Or do they get involved in 'investments" such as real estate, fine art, antiques, old books etc?

Thank you very much for your help.

Vegiegardener

Hi Vegiegardener, I don't think we have answered your concern about if landmarkers do invest their money AS WELL as their minds in Landmark and other things. The simple answer is no - Landmark is not after your money after a while...but your friends.

But landmarkers tend to think they can become rich (and famous) if only they use their new landmark thought system. A lot of people that have done landmark will try to associate with other people that have done landmark to set up some coaching company (mostly) or some money making scheme. A lot of people think they can make it in the MLM-business (Herbalife was big when I was involved).

However Landmark Education as such try to keep away from these business ventures that goes on between participants.

So maybe your brother will try to "grab" things (money) that he shouldn't have to use to further his career in landmark. That would be to rise up the leadership ladder.

Landmark uses people's lives (and their money in the process) by making them believe that the landmark way of life is the only way. So it becomes a cult. Any landmarker will deny this and say it is a racket, trying to be right and whatever jargon they can come up with. But in the end landmark uses people to the max.

When I write this I can see that this maybe will make you even more upset. Don't be. Most landmarkers snap out of it eventually. Very few make it to the top. Most end up being a bit disgruntled about landmark when they see that they don't live up to what they promise. Or when you don't make it at the next level of leadership.

...or when they crack up and their lives start to fall apart, like mine did for a while.

(I gotta stop waxing nostalgic.....as it were....)

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pauker
...or when they crack up and their lives start to fall apart, like mine did for a while.

(I gotta stop waxing nostalgic.....as it were....)

Pauker,

Could you identify or isolate any particular ideas, philosophical tenets, or ~concepts,~ that had a destructive influence on you? What do you think were the most dangerous of the est/Landmark directives, if not for you personally, then generally? How did these play out in your life?



Ellen

Good questions, Elena -- and ones that will keep me thinking for awhile. Particularly about the specific philosophic tenets as its been 25 years since i reviewed est.

Certainly something you wrote a while back in one of these threads hit me like a ton of bricks. To paraphrase, you said its not a lot of fun to confront one's own narcissism. For I realized at that moment that this is what I was doing when I was putting my life (and head) back together after my breakdown years ago. For years after est, I thought I was out there making a difference in the world, when in reality I was living and behaving as if it was ALL about me. And then I realized that every graduate I knew stuck in the est or the forum way of looking at life was acting the same way.

Its amazing how they spin things to feed one's desire to make a positive contribution OUT THERE while really they're gorging our narcissism so that we feel entitled to anything we want IN HERE.

I do now recall one catch phrase (tenet?) that was particularly destructive, though it messed with my Sister's life even more than with mine. It was, "Your word becomes law in the universe." Well, some folks can take that to even more extremes and live like whatever they decide they want becomes law in the universe. Then the end simply justifies the means, and folks act as though they are above any laws, rules, limits and boundaries that aren't their own. Reminds me of Scott Peck's brilliant take on 'willfulness' in People of the Lie. Then if these people also become manic, then this can also exacerbate magical thinking.

I don't know if you also wrote this, but its insight SOUNDS as though you might have written it. I think it was that: Empowerment in the hands of the narcissist amounts to nothing more than entitlement. That also hit me hard, 'cause looking back, that's how most of us old estholes acted.

More of those specific ideas, I'm sure, will now start bubbling up to the surface (like one of those belching Yellowstone mud-pots) now that you've asked the provocative questions here. As I remember them, I'll check back in with ya here. But I'm older now now and have teflon moments, so give me some time.