Hi all

I have not done any Landmark courses but am trying to understand things as I am concerned for someone whom I believe has been involved for about ten years.

My question is: how does Landmark continue to extract money from people who have done all their courses? Is this where "Vanto" comes in? Do people get moved up to a new level of money-making? Or do they get involved in 'investments" such as real estate, fine art, antiques, old books etc?

Thank you very much for your help.

Vegiegardener

the simple answer is that they use you to bring in fresh meat. It is like a pyramid scheme. If I have done the landmark forum and I can recruit 4 more cult members then it has worked. Landmark's marketing plan (deviced by Werner Erhard) is based on implanting the thought in your mind that your success in life is dependant on how many people you can enroll into the cult.

It is very simple and smart. The problem for landmark is that people are doing a pretty lousy job in recruiting - very many potential "customers" are pissed off when they are being subjected to a newbie landmarker's enrollment practise. So eventually most potential customers have heard about landmark "in the wrong way". Then the pyramide crumbles. Just like a MLM-business. The people at the top does not have sufficient damage control in place. But it takes time for a pyramide scheme to hit rock bottom.

Of course landmark has a lot of courses and seminars to sell the landmark devotees. But these courses are not lead by the pretty impressive forum leaders (about 50 of them exists) so people start to become disgruntled when they go to a course led by leaders that are not as nearly impressive as the forum leaders.

Hi Nettie- thank you for that.
Another question- Would you expect someone who has been in for a long time to have a many more 'friends' than most people have?

Vegiegardener

Well, if they spend a lot of time, over the years, volunteering at the LE center, then perhaps they can spin things to LOOK as though they have many friends. (I mean, if one can really call that 'friendship.') But if one were to find out how many friends these volunteers have -- outside their lekkie network -- one would find that most of these 'individuals' have a low AND CONTINUALLY DWINDLING -- group of friends. For the lekkie will usually start to distance himself from non-believers in his/her life -- AND other old friends start to distance themselves from the lekkie, too. Pretty soon, many have no friends. For those whose lives proceed to bottom-out beyond that, then the other Lekkies turn away from them, too. Now, THAT'S true friendship for ya.

So, how long have you been patiently 'hanging in there' with the Lek-ster in YOUR LIFE?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 10:37PM by pauker.

It didn't take but a few months of Landmark before I stopped associating with my pre-Landmark friends. I had a broad social network before Landmark. Gradually I started to only associate with Lekkies. We would discuss Landmark stuff like our break throughs, break downs, and how screwed up some parts of our lives were. When I told Landmark to shove it and not to bother me I quit talking to my Lekkie friends and they stopped calling me. They were pretty taken aback by my sudden about face and hostility towards Landmark.

It was a pretty lonely time after leaving Landmark. I managed to rekindle a couple of old friendships, but that's about it. The social scene I used to hang out in didn't feel comfortable to me after leaving Landmark, infact it still doesn't. I even purposely avoid my old haunts and network because it became contaminated with some Leknoids.

I've started developing a new social network. But overall I keep my new network mostly professional and business related. I just don't feel like having a lot of friends anymore. I'm still trying to get my head screwed on straight and I don't like telling people I was involved with a cult. The one saving grace I have is I spend a lot of time working and a lot of time on the road traveling to see my customers. I guess you might say my car and work has become my sanctuary.

One thing I noticed in Landmark is that some Lekkies go away for a few years then come back and redo the courses. It's not a high percentage but I remeber that there were a couple of them at the center I used to take courses at. They probably keep making money because of the shere fact that there are so many people in the world that they have a constant supply of fresh meat to go after and suck money from.

Well that's my two cents.

The Lekkie is my brother, so I will hang out for him forever. But, I am not 100% sure of his involvement and I don't want to ask him. This much I know: he did the Landmark Forum in the late 1990s (and sent me money to do it but I didn't), and since then he has become a 'good' businessman and now earns lots of $$$. He never studied business formally, though (as far as I know). He speaks and writes formulaically, without warmth (in my opinion), and has many, many 'friends', ... He has lived a long way from me for all these years so I really don't know what his life is like. He used the vanilla and chocolate example with me about 3 years ago, and I thought it was so odd. I looked up vanilla and chocolate on the internet and found it was Landmark-speak. This reminded me of his involvement in the past. I started reading more and more and things began clicking and clicking. He has brushed aside my concerns on family matters by simply saying, "That's your interpretation". - end of story-!!! Goodness me. He also says, "are we finished?" or words to that effect, in order to finish off a conversation with me. He has told me he doesn't believe in morals. He speaks of Christians with contempt in his voice. He has called me a 'victim' recently (with contempt in his voice). I wonder if this is a strange and perverted way that Landmark arranges for people to be cut off from their own family. I don't want to ask him about his involvement straight-up because I think it could backfire on me. I need to be really sure of things before I go to the next step (I'm not sure what that is either!)
I can bear any nastiness that he tries with me, because I have borne nastiness before, and the paradoxical thing is that it has made me stronger (this is another topic addressed by Scott Peck at the very end of his book People of the Lie, if I remember correctly). He used to be a warm and loving brotherly brother. Somewhere in there, he still is.

Yep, Zorro, I can relate. I don't trust like I used to, I don't open-up like I used to, and I don't seek friends like I used to. The upside, tho', is that I can now enjoy being alone with my own thoughts for long periods and entertain myself just fine. Until I started confronting my own narcissism, I couldn't stand being by myself for over 20 minutes. I needed the company and the constant approval of others. But I'm also lucky that I have (and have had) the love and support of an amazing woman that stuck by me all while my former esthole life finally came crashing to an end with a nervous breakdown. I actually had sort of a psychological death and rebirth during this time, and I'm supremely fortunate that she 'stuck around' long enough to be there for it. From this perspective, I'm a FAR more fortunate SOB than I deserve, especially given how childishly I acted in my former life.

Veggiegardner -- If that's how your Brother is acting towards others as well as you, then his 'friends' are simply his 'network' of lekkie 'associates.' That's probably all that's left for friends in his life. I wish I had a helpful suggestion as to what your next step might be.....

when you become deeply entangled in the landmark world your friendships become kind of shallow. They tend to be focused on how successful you are in living the landmark technology. If you start to doubt the technology your landmark friends HAVE to distance themselves from you. It becomes too hard to understand that the technology is not workin for the doubter.

I had a lot of friends in the landmark world. I left in 1998 - I still am in contact with 2 guys from that time.

I have fortunately come to rekindle the friendships form older times. But there was some time when I felt a lot of shame for having been involved in a cult. It is very hard to make them understand what happened. Sometimes they think that you were just stupid. But all things in landmark was not stupid. I met a lot of very intelligent and caring people. But we were all duped but landmark's lies.

Thanks so much for your replies.

I still grapple with whether he is 'really in it or not...
But I really think he is...
My worst fear is that he now recruits innnocent new people into it... that would make me sick... and ashamed...

Do you have any ideas about how I could find this sort of thing out? Of course being very conscious and careful about privacy laws etc. Please PM me if you have any suggestions. Thank you very much.

Vegiegardener

Quote
Vegiegardener
Thanks so much for your replies. I still grapple with whether he is 'really in it or not... But I really think he is...
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Oh, if he's talking to you like that, then he's 'in it' alright. It's just a question of degree.



My worst fear is that he now recruits innnocent new people into it... that would make me sick... and ashamed...
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Be sick -- be VERY sick! If he still has that 'network of friends' among his Lekster & Lekstress associates, then the question is not IF he's dragged innocent people into it, but "how many." His 'network' would eschew him (as it were) if he stopped enrolling people. Remember, once folks graduate from their Forum, then its ALL about enrollment, PLUS those earrings they put on the pig so it won't LOOK LIKE its all about enrollment. (Hmmmm...come to think of it, most of the Forum is about enrollment, too...............DANG!)


Do you have any ideas about how I could find this sort of thing out? Of course being very conscious and careful about privacy laws etc. Please PM me if you have any suggestions. Thank you very much.
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Well, your heart is in the right place about all this, but if you're willing to dip your foot into questionable activities, legally, so that you won't have to ask him questions, then he really has you over a barrel about this and precariously dancing on eggshells. I'll betcha he knows it, too. Personally, I feel that you can stop worrying about whether its appropriate to 'start worrying.' JUST GO AHEAD AND START WORRYING. From all you've told us here, he's in it -- deeply -- and also bringing others into it. If he wasn't, he'd be truly alone and lonely, for the other Landmark robots would turn their backs on him otherwise.

You have much more ability to change the rules of the game between you two than you imagine; rules that he's been clearly setting by his temperament and his twisting of jargon. But it means you'll have to muster the courage to start spicing up your conversations with questions. Sure, he's liable to get defensive. But questions also sew seeds of doubt (and of future dot-connecting). I'll bet you could sit down and think up 2 dozen questions for him within 10 minutes. Just string them out so that he doesn't feel like he's simply being cross examined by all your queries at once.

Vegiegardener

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2008 11:56PM by pauker.