>>These guys must be working from a Manual.
>>Is there a Mind Control Cult Leaders Manual out there? I am only >>partially joking. If someone knows of one, could they PM me about its >>name?


Coz,

[www.aspma.com]




Ellen

Quote
Cosmophilospher
That must be a technique of Thought Reform.
Take a complex idea from a "famous Genius" so you get Credibility, use the same word he used, but totally pervert and change the MEANING and usage of that word to whatever suits the Cult Leader's interests.

Don't forget it's also coupled with an environment that's uncomfortable, very difficult to leave once there, and set up to create conflict to weaken your critical thinking. Plus you are unable to use outside resources to investigate their claims while the course is taking place. Ah, how genuinely open, caring and ruthlessly loving of them!! (Note deep sarcasm in that previous statement!!! :twisted: )

Aurora - It is the lying that hurts. It is the secretiveness that hurts too.

For me, it first came in my LGAT participation. I recall a journalist telling me how he was invited by the leader of my LGAT, Robert Kiyosaki - "Money and You", to do a story on him. It was 1am on Sunday morning when groups of 5 were playing the "blocks game", trying to communicate the essence of words like "Integrity" through the use of childrens' building blocks. This is the point in my LGAT process where either participants had psychoitic breaks or experienced the emotional high "transformation" from abnormal serotonin production caused by lack of sleep and cognitive confusion. The discourse between the journalist and Kiyosaki went something like this:

[b:c3184845b1]Journalist: "What is happening now?"
Kiyosaki: "I'd expect them to "pop" soon. Tomorrow their brains will be like mush and I will be able to make them believe in anything." [/b:c3184845b1][/color:c3184845b1] :twisted:

The Journalist returned with a film crew for the next 3 day LGAT, filmed the story aired it in a "4 Corners" presentation and Kiyosaki's LGAT was destroyed in Australia back in late 1993.


(As a passing note: witnessing to the destruction of my LGAT through the powers of the media is why I am such a firm supporter of the future 60 Minutes Story on Landmark Education: [board.culteducation.com] )

Oz

More of these goofy Rich Dad books arrived from the library after a long waiting list. Sadly lots of people seem to want to read them.

In his book, "Rich Dad's Guide To Investing" he tells us that he wants to become a Billionaire.
He goes on about how the American public education system needs to be privatized, like health care is privatized in the US.

So he wants to become a Billionaire in the "education" system.
"Teaching" adults and children.

Can you imagine what the world would be like if con-artists like this start running schools?
That's a terrifying thought.

Coz

I just scanned another sickening ScamDad book called "Retire Young, Retire Rich".
This book is a travesty. Seriously.

Firstly, its laden with many disclaimers, in seperate boxes, so one can imagine that they have had legal problems, and are attempting to block those troubles.

There are so many absurd and vague claims in this book, one doesn't know where to begin.
Near the end of the book, he says,
--------------------
"Would you like to be able to invest without any money and without much risk for very high returns?"

"The reason i suggest this exercise only if you are brave enough is because after the discussion, you may wind up without any friends, and need to make new ones. If you find your family, friends, and co-workers are not coming from the context you want to come from, the got to our Web site at Richdad.com to meet people who are".
--------------
the book is full of stuff like this.
He also makes claims that he can make $5,000 in 5 minutes, without putting up any money, or selling anything tangible using a "naked put option". (he lists many types of sophisticated trading techniques).
He also lists many "magical" real estate deals he allegedly did using almost no money, etc, etc. (of course, you have to train with him to find out how to do it!).

Here's the scam.
99% of people want to be rich.
He tells people he became rich using these "tricks".
He offers to teach you these tricks.
Seminars are 5 grand for 3 days. Buy all the books, tapes, sign up for the website.

He basically says if you want to be rich, become an owner of a large, profitable corporation, AND become a professional financial trader, AND a professional real estate investor.
So become Bill Gates, George Soros, and Donald Trump.
How?
Train with Kiyosaki. (Kiyoscami).

So he can charge people thousands and thousands and thousands. There is no end to it.

Of course, those trained in business and finance see what he is saying is bullcrap. His target are those who know NOTHING, and want to be rich FAST and EASY.
He then isolates you from friends and family, who are telling you you are being scammed.

At the end of the book, he has this BIZARRE section about "Alice in Wonderland", making claims of this nature...

"WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF THERE WAS NO RISK AND IT REQUIRED NO MONEY TO BECOME RICH?"

He wants to lure you down the Rabbit Hole into a magical world where you can become rich, without money, with no risk, and i guess without working? (But of course you need to start Microsoft, become Warren Buffet, and Donald Trump, all of who have been workaholics for decades).

Its crazy making.
And that's its goal.
Down the Rabbit Hole you go, and listen to his endless bullcrap ScamDad BS "stories" and make Kiyosaki richer and richer. Dream that you will be a Billionaire just like him.
Give Kiyoscami all your money.
He has dozens of tentacles trying to lure people in.
But don't even try to sue him. Didn't you read all of those disclaimers?
Evil.

Coz

Quote

He basically says if you want to be rich, become an owner of a large, profitable corporation, AND become a professional financial trader, AND a professional real estate investor.

I recall vividly in Kiyosaki's LGATs in Sydney during the early 1990's that so many times he castigated people for making money on the stock market. He referred to them as parasites because they did not contribute to society by creating something worthwhile and selling it.

Kiyosaki says what suites him at the time. He is a "wona be" second class Werner and Tony Robbins. Remember from the research on this thread, he was trained with Robbins by Marshall Thurber before Robins commenced his NLP scam. He has been scaming for decades.

Oz

The idea that the Finance-Capitalists are parasites, he probably got from Bucky Fuller, as that's what he said."Fin-Cap" were going to wreck the world, according to Bucky.

But now Kiyoscamu sees he can make a bundle by "training" people how to make 5 grand in 5 minutes from home.
He doesn't talk about losing 5 grand in 5 minutes though.
These poor folks are going to lose their shirts.

Coz

The following report of a 1979 joint interview of R. Buckminster Fuller and Werner Erhard is quite interesting. Back then, both men seemed to be of similar minds.

[www.culteducation.com]

Readers of this thread will recall that Kiyosaki's LGAT used the "Generalised Principles" of Buckminster Fuller and that Kiyosaki had done Werner's Est.

Kiyoskai's LGAT had components of Est and Landmark Education's Forum in it, in particular the "Chocolate and Vanilla" exercise which is designed to enocurage "graduates" to be "unreasonable" in obtaining what they want and need without giving a reason.

Werner also tried to get credibility points by rubbing shoulders with members of the Esleen Institute in Big Sur California, of which Buckminster Fuller was a respected Master.

[b:7ee0a7b167]ADDITIONAL EDIT NOTE:[/b:7ee0a7b167]
The following link to a article in 1988 also suggests that Werner Erhard worked with Buckminster Fuller and picked up his mode of speaking delivery:
[www.culteducation.com]


[b:7ee0a7b167]From the article:[/b:7ee0a7b167]
"I can say that to you after two or three hours together," Werner continued in his characteristic tone that suggested a question mark with every pause -- an inflection he said he picked up from working with R. Buckminster Fuller -- "and I know that you know what I'm talking about. I know that you get the flavor of what I'm talking about. Now, it's damned tough to put it into clear prose. Damn tough. That's why we've got poetry. That's why we have fiction."[/color:7ee0a7b167]


I recall that the trainers in Kiyosaki's LGAT used this type of "twang" to re-enforce what they were saying: for example in a sentence like:

What you can do...

Would be said this way -

What you can doooow

This technique had a whole bunch of Australians in the course speaking with highly pronounced and exaggerated American accents. 10 years later, people would come up to me and say, are you from the USA? Readers need to bare in mind that in the LGAT process, we were in a highly suggestible state and that is how we picked it up.

I have also noticed that my ex-girlfriend on occassions also speaks this way after doing the Forum and her Forum leader was an Australian too. it is quite a technique and shows the degree of suggestibility when a person's accent can change over a three day LGAT weekend.

Oz

Its my view that Erhard and Kiyoscamu just wanted to use some of Bucky's "credibility" to give themselves some legitimacy.
Bucky worked with countless hundreds of people.
Its also seems reasonable to me that Bucky was fairly naive in certain ways, and Erhard would have found it easy to play with him in the short-term.

I can tell you, after reading most of Bucky's books, dozens of them over the years, that his vision is NOTHING like that of Erhard, or Kiyoscamu.
Obviously Bucky was not a saint, and had some crackpot ideas. But he also had a cool poetic way of writing and speaking, and i would say that most people have no idea of what he was talking about.

To me, he was a type of Technological Utopian. His work was NOT about "personal development". His idea was trying to make the world a better place by using technology.
His reputation reminds me of Marshall McCluhan, or Wittgenstein.
Everyone talked about it, but no one read his actual books in detail!
Actually, Bucky said many times that the way to save the world was through "self-regenerative" technology, what is now called "green technology". But that is a misnomer, as Bucky would not refer to "green" as "natural", but just what evolution has produced in this area of Universe. (he would not say "the universe" as that takes the observer out of the universe).
He also didn't use the terms "up" or "down" as there is no such thing in Universe.
Also, "Generalized Principles" from Bucky were what are called Laws of Nature. Gravity, the speed of light, etc.

The reason i say all this is that he literally deconstructed the way humans think about reality in hundreds of ways, and could tell a hellava great story.
One of the reason Bucky was popular is that all of the Stoners could listen to him and go..."wow...man....deep...mind blowing...".

What these people have done is taken some of his ideas, and just twisted them around. To me Bucky is similar to McCluhan in that sense.

Here is a transcription of a lecture series Bucky gave called "Everything I Know".
[www.bfi.org]

The only thing i know is that 99% of people could never make it through the first 5 minutes of reading, never mind the 10 hours of reading it would take to read this lecture!

In my view, Bucky has nothing to do with these clowns.
The guy was an engineer and architect, and a type of crazy "genius", and just an interesting creative guy out there doing his visionary thing.
Tons of people latched onto him.
Look at all of the crackpot newagers who use Einstein's name in vain. Its common practice.

I have even copied some of Bucky's writing techniques, but they were all done long before by James Joyce.

Coz

I understand your point about Bucky, Coz.

I also understand what you mean about how taxing it is to stay with Bucky's writing and speaches. He seems not to process ideas and speach linealy but in series so to speak... I recall listening to his tapes in Kiyosaki's LGAT and his diction too was hard to follow but his mind is great.

Earlier we had uncovered how Werner Erhard tried to "create" for himself credibility by associating with the Esleen Institute. I was just slightly amazed that Bucky gave Werner the time of day let alone be in a joint interview with him.

Both articles do lean toward the two working together but like you I tend to agree that Bucky may have been a bit nieve about Werner.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, guilt by association needs to be avoided. However what is most interesting is how all the personalities written about in this thread are linked.

In the second article it talks about Werner Erhard using Gestalt Therapy in Est/Forum. Fritz Pearls, the author of Gestalt therapy was also a member of The Esleen Institute.

It is my opinion that Fritz Pearls' Gestalt Therapy groupwork may have been the forerunner to enocunter groups and the Human Potential Movement's LGATs.

The distinction between Gestalt Therapy and LGATs is the use of ethical practices by many Gestalt therapists. It is a widely respected therapy.

Oz