My best friend (and other people I know - chain effect) has gotten involved in a lesser known LGAT in NYC. I'm totally against it and have had confrontations with her about it.. I tried to explain to her how these people have no qualifications and are just out for your money. She seems to feel that the money doesn't matter if it is helping your life. She doesn't have this kind of money to spare. I recently met one of her friends she coaxed into going. Appartently she hasn't smoked since she started the program and feels the same way about the money aspect. Another friend who is bulimic hasn't purged since starting. My question is how are they able to actually get people to this "miraculous" point? I feel like how can I argue with them if they have had this kind of success? Then I start to doubt myself thinking maybe it is working for them. I do definitely know I would never do this program, I'm too negative, skeptical and cheap for these people. My friend has stopped trying to talk me into it.

I still don't believe in these programs and our relationship is not the same. When I am out with her one of her new "best friends" calls with a problem (no matter what time it is). Then my friend has to attend to this friend and help and be supportive. Sometimes on the phone for 20 min to a half an hour. Meanwhile I'm just sitting there. I feel like this is very rude. All of this seems so time consuming. It seems to me that they can't get through a day without having to talk to each other to get them through some crisis. My friend admitted her cell phone bill was almost $1,000 last month.

I also secretly called her husband to inform him about the things I found out (this website and others) because he was planning on going. I think he is still planning on going. I can't believe people don't investigate things further even when they have gotten the "heads up." She has probably still been able to convince him or threaten him to go because they already don't have a good marriage. My friend is presently in the Leadership program and is going out of state this weekend to do Ropes. I can't imagine what they would do. I'm sure you have to pay your own way. More money.

Do people really get anything long term out of this or is it going to fall apart at some point?

thanks for help -
very discouraged by being replaced

hi fuzbelflup,
i understand where you're coming from... my friend made the claim of "why should i be against them if they are making me feel good about things? i don't care if they're out for money - that's what businesses do."

but i try to explain that ethical businesses sell you something tangible that is worth the money you spend - not some mysterious "technology" that you can glean by yourself from a random stack of books in the library's philsophy, psychology, self-help, and spiritual sections.
and then i start doubting myself too - who am i to tell her how to spend her money? i guess my problem is that i don't respect the practice of willingly putting money into unethical business when you have other options.

i can also relate to your feeling of being replaced. i get a strong sense of jealousy about my friend's new community, and then i feel bad, i think maybe i'm being possessive. but i don't think i'd feel like i had lost her if she was involved in some other community - something healthy - like political or social activism, or clubs, or volunteering. the difference with this group is that they become terribly exclusive. non-LGAT people become outsiders to them, and they form a bond that goes beyond the healthy bonds of typical community/group involvement. their group isn't just *special* to them - it's full of enlightened people who they believe are better because they've all found this wonderful new way of life that everyone would be better off with if only they could see...

i'm starting to "get it" now. starting to see how they work. my friend has also been more and more religiously biased since she started her LGAT stuff. she used to be a fairly open minded christian, but now she has been claiming that christianity is the ONLY "right" religion, and that anyone who doesn't have it is missing out.

it's messed up because they claim to free people, but are only boxing them in. GRRRR

hi fuzbelflup,
i understand where you're coming from... my friend made the claim of "why should i be against them if they are making me feel good about things? i don't care if they're out for money - that's what businesses do."

but i try to explain that ethical businesses sell you something tangible that is worth the money you spend - not some mysterious "technology" that you can glean by yourself from a random stack of books in the library's philsophy, psychology, self-help, and spiritual sections.
and then i start doubting myself too - who am i to tell her how to spend her money? i guess my problem is that i don't respect the practice of willingly putting money into unethical business when you have other options.

i can also relate to your feeling of being replaced. i get a strong sense of jealousy about my friend's new community, and then i feel bad, i think maybe i'm being possessive. but i don't think i'd feel like i had lost her if she was involved in some other community - something healthy - like political or social activism, or clubs, or volunteering. the difference with this group is that they become terribly exclusive. non-LGAT people become outsiders to them, and they form a bond that goes beyond the healthy bonds of typical community/group involvement. their group isn't just *special* to them - it's full of enlightened people who they believe are better because they've all found this wonderful new way of life that everyone would be better off with if only they could see...

i'm starting to "get it" now. starting to see how they work. my friend has also been more and more religiously biased since she started her LGAT stuff. she used to be a fairly open minded christian, but now she has been claiming that christianity is the ONLY "right" religion, and that anyone who doesn't have it is missing out.

it's messed up because they claim to free people, but are only boxing them in.

I don't have time for a full answer, but here is a quick one.
There is an initial HIGH, but it wears off.
After some Adversities, and Time, the smoking comes back, the eating comes back, the drinking comes back, usually.
That's just human nature.

Humans do NOT make permanent change of long-standing psychological problems at these types of events.
That's the "scam".

And this is my personal opinion.
If i had a friend who was racking up $1,000 a month in crazy cell phone calls, and wrecking her life, personally, i would just sit down with them, and tell them what i know, and what i think.
I would be as persuasive as i could.

But in the end, its their "decision". (even though they are coerced).
Sometimes we have to learn by our mistakes. I sure did.
I got scammed a bunch of times when i was young and foolish.

Anyway, hang in there, and know that these things are VERY difficult to deal with, and there are no magic solutions.
I have lost friends that became Landmarkians and seemed to love it, and wouldn't stop with the Landmarking.
That's life sometimes.

Coz

There is an initial high people feel. The people you meet seem to be your new friends, but the high wears off. The LGAT experience is not enough common ground to have a lasting friendship or lasting success. It can be a real let down. Some people continue to work it by staffing and volunteering. Some of those people are very strange and you can't talk to them because all you get back are LGAT cliche's.

As far as your friends husband is concerned is it possible that her LGAT has found a way to convince her that she may leave her husband if he doesn't get with the program. My husband came home from a week long seminar in CA and told me he thought our marriage would be over if I didn't go. That's how I got hooked into the first class.

Some people do make changes in their lives after attending a program. In my opinion they get the credit for that not the LGAT. LGATS are kind of like a box of turd truffles. The box looks okay. The truffle looks okay. The problem is you can't eat the chocolate without eating the turd hidden inside.

LGATS want you to look at the concepts and tools and success they yack about, but the greed, manipulation, trance, thought reform etc all come with it. LGATS are very dangerous even though you will hear anecdotal tales of success and happiness.

What is the name of the LGAT?

Hi fuzbelflup,

Trust yourself and what you understand to be happening with regard to your friend. It's this element that LGATs are adept at undermining. If with your research, your observations of her behaviour and your own gut feelings and knowledge of your own values you conclude that what she's doing is extremely negative then stay with that. Her behaviour toward you, especially keeping you waiting while on the phone and the clicky group stuff she has with her new 'friends' are in themselves a manipulation to get you into her group. The message being, enrol and then I will give you my attention and you will then belong to this 'wonderful' group too.

An excellent book: The Guru Papers, by Joel Krammer and Diana Alstad looks into this issue of trusting yourself, along with issues around authority and power. In fact the recovery for people that have gotten sucked into these LGATs is all about learning to trust yourself again.

Your friend's behaviour is all about making you doubt yourself. Also the claims of quick fixes are exagerated in order to sell their message. A drug might make you feel better temporarily, but is only doing that for as long as you take it, and then so many side-effacts can take hold. The LGAT is her drug.

calling LGAT's a farce and leaving it that oversimplifies the situation.

a family I knew years ago seemed like kind and happy people before est and still do after est. they would probably say they benefitted from it.

the wife of my uncle who spent twenty years helping in est and then Landmark seems none the worse and says that she gained from it.

I have also seen family members pass through LEC without much change at all. until this spring I did not even know they had done the Forum.

Landmark can supply the tools to make the person powerful over themselves. whether the person will use the power in a good way or a bad way depends on the person.

strength does not always mean strength to do good.

the cliché says that Landmark grads make it hell for the people around them and I have often found that true in practice.

Does anyone here know anything about an LGAT called "The Miracle of Love"?

At the risk of throwing you off on a wrong tangent, is the "Miracle of Love" a rebranding of "A Little Course in Miracles"

Oz