Pauker:

Thanks very much and so sorry to hear you are watching your daughter take this path. For me that would be even more awful - if my children were somehow lured.

I spoke with my partner last night. He is coming here this weekend. He sounded flat and lacking in confidence in his ability to do the job he is doing at the moment. I am wondering if he is heading down after the high. Although he is doing the SELP course and he told me that they meet once a month on a Saturday and that once a week he has a phone call with - I think he called it his coach.

I realise I am going to need quite a strategy and a good measure of tact to deal with this... and that is what is so stressful.
I feel like I am unable to gauge the extent to which: he is able to think critically and
he has the ability to take on certain anti-Landmark information.

I wish you well with your daughter - it is just so heart-breaking.

Zorro:

A thing that really gives me hope from this site are the posts from those who "got out" - thank you.

It is interesting that you speak about the strength of my partner. He is indeed a strong person with a formidable 'presence' and charisma. He has the most wonderful speaking voice and outstandinng projection when he does speak in a room of people. I have no doubt that Landmark would find him a very attractive and valuable acquisition.

I have been almost obsessed n my search for information, and this evening I found a site which had threads on it between full on Landmark people and Est people who seemed to have doen a lot of the courses. I was fascinated (in a scary sense) and astounded. I read through the exchanges trying to see how they used the language.

It WAS scary - and completely idiotic and arrogant. I was cringeing (sp?), shaking my head and wondering if my partner communicates like that with his support group and coaches. I felt embarrassed for them...and at the same time I really feel for ex-landmark people that when they start getting their head together, they have to look at how they were. It would be a major challenge to work through that and I take my hat off to you and the other brave exes here who have and are doing so.


Just now...

I have just hung up from a call that interrupted my typing here. It was my partner. (Actually he asked me what I was doing - so I told him I was on the internet - I didn't dare say where or what... not yet). Anyway as we were speaking his mobile rang and he said: "Oh can you just hold on - I have to get this, I am supposed to be at a Landmark meeting...". he answered and I could hear it was his daughter. When he came back to me I asked a few questions: "Are you supposed to be at a meeting?", "yes, but I called to say I was pulling out of this course, actually deferring" (this is the SELP course). In my head I am yelling "YES YES YES".. but I said "Oh really, why is that?". He then went on to tell me that due to his travel and other commitments he is unable to meet the 'attendance requisites' so he will defer it until later. I think he doesn't like this course much as I asked him when is the next SELP course... to which he replied "October, but i am not sure I'll do it. I'll definitely do another course but maybe not the SELP course." I hope that this is a window of opportunity for me now to try to kick-start his brain.

Anyhow I apologise for being so introspective in my postings - and I do recognise that I am slightly obsessed and threatened and worried about this Landmark crap.
The replies here are very valuable to me and I appreciate them very much. Thanks guys.

Hi amemg,

In order to see what actually happens at a Landmark course, you might wish to watch a documentary that is viewable on the CAIC site. It's in French with subtitles in English. There is also a transcript of the English subtitles. Very enlightening.

Pop over to watch the video here.

Hope it helps.

John

Quote
amemg
Pauker:

Thanks very much and so sorry to hear you are watching your daughter take this path. For me that would be even more awful - if my children were somehow lured.

Yeah, it's scary and it really sucks. At the very least, I do have an advantage over everyone else in her life who won't enroll in her training. And that is: I can turn-on and spew the jargon with the best of them. Hell, I talked that stuff for years (even long after distancing myself from est) thinking it was normal or something. But in this case, its proving to be somewhat useful (from time to time) for keeping a connection going with her. I want to be there for her when she crashes, and I want her to feel safe in opening up and communicating with me when she does, for that will be key to helping her open her eyes further. And so far, judiciously timed sprinklings of jargon to/at her has helped me keep those lines of communication open, as she feels we can speak a similar language even though I won't do Impact myself. I even went over to the Impact thread here on the LGAT forum to 'bone-up' -- as it were -- on their jargon and add a few choice phrases to my more 'retro' est-hole syntax. I must say, if there is any FUN to this whatsoever, its in seeing her eyes get really big when I casually toss in one of those phrases.



I spoke with my partner last night. He is coming here this weekend. He sounded flat and lacking in confidence in his ability to do the job he is doing at the moment. I am wondering if he is heading down after the high. Although he is doing the SELP course and he told me that they meet once a month on a Saturday and that once a week he has a phone call with - I think he called it his coach.

Uh-huh. Combining what you just noted here with your subsequent post (where his phone call interrupted your typing), it sounds like his plane might be "coming in for a landing." (At the very least, it sounds like a chink in the armour.) Kinda spooky now, cause you won't be able to gauge really well until you see him just how far and how fast (and at what angle) he's a comin' down. But even if he comes straight down (and hard) it beats the hell outta the alternative, for some folks go from hypo-mania to full-blown mania, and then maybe have to go onto Lithium for the rest of their lives: IF THEY'RE LUCKY. (BTW, that's what ultimately happened to my Sister after the Forum).



I realise I am going to need quite a strategy and a good measure of tact to deal with this... and that is what is so stressful.
I feel like I am unable to gauge the extent to which: he is able to think critically and
he has the ability to take on certain anti-Landmark information.

Actually, you already have stumbled upon a principal tool in this. Quoting from your most recent entry:
In my head I am yelling "YES YES YES".. but I said "Oh really, why is that?"
BINGO, Amemg -- that's it. Frame most of your comments as questions, and for the time being, spend more time listening than talking. This does two things: it helps you more quickly assess where his head is "at" (and which way it may be heading). PLUS, having him answer questions (in lieu of having him endure your current opinions) can kick-start his left-hemisphere -- which may be starting to shake-off some fog now -- into its old pre-Landmark habits of 'connecting the dots.' If you can get his brain to start doing that, then he may have a chance of coming to the right conclusions on his own. He may even think that these new ideas are his own, before ultimately seeing that you were, in fact, leading him to water to make his own discoveries.


I wish you well with your daughter - it is just so heart-breaking.

It is. Damn, I hope to God I'm playing my cards right here. With bi-polar disorder already in my family genes, I fear that my Daughter's sanity truly hangs in the balance. And now I understand better the extent to which I was playing with fire w/my OWN sanity when I first took est in the 70's.

As an aside to everyone posting on this thread, I'm so glad I found this website and these forums, especially the LGAT forum. It is incredibly informative and supportive for me at a time I really can use some help here, for I truly fear for my little girl's mind. If my posts on various threads here appear to some to be expounding like I'm some kind of expert, believe me I have learned far more here in the past week than I've shared (ooops, sorry for the jargon).

Update:

Pauker, thank you very much for your detail. I feel for you as I have also had to deal with bipolar in my family at close range and you get a good feel for the context and the events that surround the high highs and low lows. It is a worry and there is no easy answer.

I am sitting here in my dining room with my partner. He arrived early this morning and until now (7.30pm) there has been no mention of LM. But... I just suggested we watch a DVD together and he said he would like to but the call that he got (about 30mins ago) was from his LM Leader and she has told him that "we will make it work for you" and so he has decided not to pull out of SELP (and now he has 'work' to do). She said just because he leads an international life doesn't mean they can't work it out and she will organise for him to be able to complete the requisites in Sydney and London and Perth. I asked a question about it (one to make him think) and I got the 'you don't understand because you haven't experienced it'. He also added that I had been a little "derisive" in my attitude when he invited me to do the Forum (I did say I wouldn't be surprised if they all stand on chairs and wave their arms in the forum... (when he first asked me to go)). I asked him not to underestimate how much I understand about LM. I asked him when did he do the Forum ... he told me 1997. I asked why did he decide to do the Advanced Course "For some CLARITY" was his response. He told me that his possibility was "Courage and Completion" and that is why he had to stay in SELP now (I guess he would not be in INTEGRITY if he didn't follow through with his COMMITMENT).

I feel totally deflated. I thought I saw a glimpse of Hope. Clearly she hovered at my door and moved on!!!

As if my deflation wasn't enough.
I engaged in a discussion about LM. I just couldn't help myself.
The short of it is that I said I was concerned about him. I asked him had he done any research on LM before he went to the Advanced Course. He said he had seen a couple of articles and some silly newspaper articles that called it a cult. So I asked him "what defines a cult". He said "what is a cult"... and then decided to look up the definition for me.
He eventually got on to Wikipedia and I asked him to go to the section on psychological definitions I'll paste it here:

Psychological definition
Studies of the psychological aspects of cults focus on the individual person, and factors relating to the choice to become involved as well as the subsequent effects on individuals. Under one view, an important factor is coercive persuasion which suppresses the ability of people to reason, think critically, and make choices in their own best interest.

Studies of religious, political, and other cults have identified a number of key steps in this type of coercive persuasion:[25]

1. People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
2. Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
3. They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader;
4. They get a new identity based on the group;
5.They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.[26]

As he went through points 1 to 5 .. he started off with saying "they are maybe three or two that could be said to be Landmark" then he read them aloud and said "maybe one point"... he then concluded that actually none apply! He said from the start that point 1 definitely did not apply, point two was a maybe for a about one minute and point four was an "if -ish - sort -of". But he was able to actually discard them all after about one minute. So I think I am getting a gauge to how far he is in.
And I think he realises that he is not going to enroll me. In fact he said I think I have done Landmark a dis-service. I asked him if he was supposed to be "serving them"... and he twisted that. I think I need to go see a counsellor as I find this a bit too stressful. He is saying all the things that the LM trolls and zealots say.

John Fox

Thank you for the video link to the French program. I have already read the transcript a few weeks ago... but i will watch it now.

PS to all. sorry about my errors... my typing is really bad

These bastards set their hooks deep.


Ellen

I found this link about a week after I took the LF it really helped.

Pro's and Con's of LGATS


One of the problems I see you facing in all this is being able to hold your ground agains the insanity. Because my girlfriend has taken 4 of their classes and is assisting and I can't get her out I have been using subtle logic against what she is experiencing. Its hard and fortunatly for us we will both be out of the country and she won't be able to access landmark people and I will have my chance to do some deprogramming on her.

In the case of your partner I will say this, he is in deep. With his dismissal of the 5 items within a minute he is going to be tough. When seeking out a counsular or therapist see if they have had any experience with people who have been in LGAT's before.

One thing I will share that has some effect on the hold is books. I just read the book called "the five languages of apology" and it encourage my girfriend to read the book from Ekart Tole "the power of now" which describes things that she's dealing with which allow for an alternative path to self healing instead of thinking that LF is the way.

H

Ooooohh, that phone call from LM and his response to it was a red flag to NOT push too hard or fast just yet. You're gonna need to sift through weeks more of jargon-y pre-programmed answers to your questions even after his 1st crash, I'm afraid. But perhaps all is not lost in this game of poker just yet; even tho' you likely blew most of this weekend's round by showing him all your cards. For now, if he's still there, just try to chill about all this. Wait until he discovers that LM's new 'accommodations' for his international lifestyle is just making his SELP experience worse. That's how the attrition process peals people off from est/LM: as they begin to more fully realize they're being used. AFTER that, they can more fully recognize how badly they've been taken (in general).

If you can stand hanging around his life long enough to watch that process unfold from close range, then you can actually be there for him when he (cognitively) wakes up. Time is an X factor here, though. (dang) Anyway, this is what I HOPE I can pull off with my Daughter, too.

From what I understand, a lot of SELP is about enrollment (surprise -- but then, all their advanced coursed are); so your expressed concern for him and your resistance to enrolling in LM is smacking up directly against his current dose of mind-fuck and its probably throwin' him for a loop.

HOLLY - Thanks for that link - I have started reading it now.

Pauker:

Yep I blew it by laying my hand on the table. He is DEEPLY troubled by what I had to say. He maintains it is not what I had to say about LM but how I communicated with him. He told me he felt attacked and alienated. Even though I was calm, my body language was defensive - that's true. He told me he never wants exchanges like that a sthat is not he woman he knows. He also told me he felt confronted (but again he told me it was not by what I had to say about Landmark... but by how I communicated). (I would have thought both were connected).

We spoke about it later and I got very upset. He reiterated that LM was harmless. I tried to pose that : if I had concerns based on research and my gut red flags, then I wouldn't call it harmless. He said he can walk away from it. If I say so he will leave the SELP course. I explained that he probably needed to come to the realisation (of leaving) himself rather than (eventually) resenting me for 'making ' him leave. I don't think he will.

I have decided to be quiet and try to support him when or if he does come to some realisations. In the meantime I have decided to try to find a counsellor to deal with me as clearly I have big issues with it.

BTW he 'justified/acknowledged' his first conversation with me the night he called to try to enrol me... he told me he was "babbling". But when I asked why, he couldn't explain it. I then asked him if he got back to his group and shared that enrollemnt attempt. He said yes and that he told the group that I was "a scientist and needed evidence". I then asked "did they tell you that you were not enrolling properly?".... he was silent... I asked again "did they suggest that you were not enrolling effectively and that it was your fault?"... he was quiet... I then asked "did they suggest that you were not enrolling properly because you had not 'touched, moved and inspired' me?"... He went into an explanation of the terms "touch, move, inspire" and never did answer my questions... I interpret (and I may be incorrect) his silence as like being stunned... a bit like "how does she know that?" was going through his head.... maybe time will tell me.