Hi Surlykatt (and Parrot?)
I might know you both from elewhere on the 'net... :D

I've been 'friends' with folks who are in cults (not Landmark). The cost of discussing the 'cult issue' directly alienated the friendship, and I lost the relationship. :(

With other cultees still in my life, doing as Hassan suggests in "Releasing the Bonds", I am a loving, friendly presence, but I do not participate in their cult activities. I listen supportively. But for myself, those relationships are not (able to be) primary relationships in my life. Maybe, someday, those folks.. my brother's family, my parents, and a few isolated friends... will question their *groupthink* on their own. and maybe not. But I've moved on to fill my own life elsewhere. ... oh well...

So, Surlykatt, what's the latest w/ your friend?
t

Gi:

Please don't promote a book repeatedly.

"Cults in Our Midst" by Margaret Singer is probably the definitive book about cults, written by the leading cult expert of the 20th Century.

Coping strategies regarding cults can be obtained through the Internet for free.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Being Friends with a Landmark Person can be summed up like this:

From the Landmarkian perspective, you are in their life because they have allowed it on their terms as they create all the possibilities in their own life in a godlike fashion. They give meaning according to their whim to all events, objects and people in their life. A person who is in a relationship with a Landmarkian is objectified ie: they don't have intrinsic meaning on their own. The Landmarkian give that person meaning. This is Existential Philosophy taken to the extreme. It is an unequal relationship, even when they have left LE.

A truely loving and mutual relationship may only be possible once the former LE Grad is no longer in denial and their heart has returned to its former loving capacity and desire, pre LE.

The question remains: How long will you wait for your former loved one to return from out of the LE fog. I waited 10 months and for my efforts of getting my loved one out of Landmark I was ridiculed and rejected.

Oz

I am really grateful for this site. I was invited to a Landmark meeting by someone I had just met due to a mutual hobby. She was pleasant and personable and amazed that I had heard of Landmark before. She was very excited that there was an upcoming seminar. She felt as if Landmark had freed her mind. There is a weekly meeting and I had the impression that it was sort of 'church'. I declined because of what I have read here. I don't need to be in a cold room getting bullied to find myself. I'm not lost.

Neria

Something I observed with Landmarkians.

My doctor and his girlfriend were Landmarkians. She knew of his unscrupulous behavior, but since she didn't believe he had done anything terrible to her, that meant that her relationship with him was authentic. Had he robbed a bank, that would have been fine, because that was an interaction between him and the bank, and none of her business. This may or may not be an extreme example. The same reasoning was observed with people I met at LF. ONly when it becomes personal do you need to choose whether you are experiencing inauthentic behavior and do somethng about it.

The same was true w/ my experience w/ folks in Miracle of Love. But then still the unscrupulousness would pass into other relationships, but also justififed because it was in support of "The Mission" of the commitment to one's direction "to home" via MOL.

Has everyone read the info available on the rick ross site? I've been following the expert advice to be open and caring with your Landmark loved one, and it really works. My friend was pretty arrogant and dismissive ("you'll never get it," he snapped at me once), but he really turned around once I started acting supportive. In fact, he now chats happily with me and has spilled all sorts of Landmark "secrets." It's important to let your LE friends know they have people who support them on the "outside." It also helps me to realize that my friend has been pretty thoroughly "brainwashed" but doesn't realize it...LE participants are victims, and it might help all of us to be more understanding if we look at them that way. That's not to say we should agree with LE teachings or be deceptive.

In fact, it helps if you talk about happy times before LEC...it helps bring out the "authentic" person you knew before.

He's not out of LE yet, but at least he's talking to me about it, which is a good first step.

Check out:

[culteducation.com]

[culteducation.com]

Glam (aka Parrot...for some reason I couldn't sign in with that username)

Glam,

What you write is good advice and what is available on the RR site on this matter is the right way to go. It is about having respect for the Landmarkian and their situation.

Problems occur when the Landmarkian or even exLandmarkian if they have not been properly exit counselled, make lifestyle changing decisions based on the flawed philisophical teachings of Landmark that impact the "loved one" on the outside. These lifestyle changing decisions may be detrimental to the Landmarkian and the loved one and the pace at which these decisions are implememented can cause a multitude of crises. Given this situation, it is very difficult for the loved one outside to remain cool and supportive. It almost requires "Saintly" characteristics.

Factors that influence the fractuous gradient in the realtionship are:
1. The degree to which the Landmarkian has "bought" the principles of LE;
2. The degree to which the Landmarkian implements lifestyle changes based on LE principles;
3. The degree to which these implementations are removed from the Landmarkain's prior principles and life constructs, and existing relationships;
4. The frequency and pace of lifestyle changing decisions made;
5. The intensity and seriousness of the relationship commitment between the Landmarkian and the"loved one".

If all these areas are considered high, the harder it is for the one on the outside to remain cool and not reactionary.

I am defining lifestyle changing decisions and implemtatations as:
a) Resigning from employment to pursue a whim with no foundation;
b) Disengaging from realtionships and family - Divorce, breakups etc
c) Participating in dangerous activities once held to be against the principles of the Landmarkian like promiscurity;
d) Breaking away from belief or faith traditions;
e) Moving from one incompleted project to another;

Not wanting to labour the point, my ex-girlfriend left me for a married man she met at Landmark and she could not understand why I was not happy for her that she had found someone. She was a practicing Catholic and could not see the disconnect between what she was doing and what she believed in. She also put at risk her career for the sake of her involvement in LE. In this situation, it was very hard for me to not be reactionary and instead be supportive.

Oz

Hi Oz,

Yes, I agree. It's probably easier for me because I'm just a platonic friend and only see my Landmark friend maybe once a week or so; I'm sure it would be much harder if someone I was very close to was inducted into Landmark. If your girlfriend leaves you for someone else...well, I certainly wouldn't expect you to be supportive! That must have been a very tough situation.

Unfortunately, my friend is starting to show the promiscuity you mentioned, as well as a disdain for women and even his own wife, which is very uncharacteristic of him. And hard for me to be supportive when he acts that way!

I'm struck by how some people leave LEC and even seem to have some gripes about it, but even years later still "believe" and get angry and defensive about it. I think they might go on believing forever without exit counseling or information-giving of some kind, even after leaving.

Glam

Glam/Parrot,

I'm sad to hear that your friend is going down the promiscuous path. It seems to be a common way amongst them. They are told in the InAction Seminar that sex is not love, it is "mechanical". Many months after my ex left Landmark and relaised that she was brainwashed, in conversation she remarked that our last intimate kiss, (the day after the Forum), was "mechanical". I pointed out how she used the word and she exclaimed that she recalls being told this. This is part of the reason why she left me, because our kissing was mechanical the day after the Forum. She was shocked she described it so but still she has no love for me. All her love for me was stripped away in a three day course. Even knowing interlectually what has happened, she still has no emotions for me at all and no desire to rebuild and she has never been able to offer a reason. it is as though she does not know either. - sorry, digressing.

Your friend's moral code has been put to sleep. He is not fully accountible for his actions. Keep this in mind - but his poor wife. Landmark is a scurge on society!

oz