hi all,
i'm looking for some advice, stories, any thoughts on dealing with what is i'm sure a common situation.

a good friend of mine recently began the landmark forum courses, and came out of the first weekend making all the typical praises and speaking a whole new language (landmark jargon now littered all of our conversations, which had me feeling both annoyed, and disappointed in her as an intelligent person). she has since been attending weekly forum meetings and has shelled out enough money to make me seriously doubt her critical thinking abilities.

after reading both the pros and cons online, i confronted her honestly about my views of the forum early on: i believe it is a manipulative, greedy company that preys on emotionally vulnerable people, using shady tactics to make millions of dollars, and with no real regard for the actual health or happiness of its "graduates." i call it a cult, but not in a religious sense... i think of it as more of a business cult. she reacted defensively, and we still have quibbles (usually a back and forth nonsense, slightly playful but also quite tense, of "it IS a cult"/"it IS NOT a cult" until we give up and move onto something else).

she uses the forum jargon a little less frequently in our conversations now, but when she does talk about it i find myself disturbed and upset, even angry at her inability to see what i feel is painfully obvious about the forum - that it is fleecing her and her family of money much better spent on real education, or private therapy. she *seems* so happy but i feel she's kidding herself... watching it happen is really difficult.

my issue is: i don't want to lose a friend over this.
but i have lost a lot of respect for her because of what i see happening. i feel dislike for her because she was so easily "duped," even though it happens to plenty of people all the time, even sometimes the most stubborn skeptics.

any advice on how to deal with friendships with forum people in a way that respects their decision to be involved, but also does not drown out your own skepticism?
i tend not to be closely involved with people who support companies i disagree strongly with - from politics to religion to the economy. but would i be a jerk to ditch a person over something like this?

thanks....

If you want to see what your friend was up against, read the material on this thread which is entitled 'Manipulating the Room's Environment.'

Lots of info from persons who used to work forLGATs and who set up the rooms, plus from participants who reported how very tightly scripted social interactions were inside those rooms.

[board.culteducation.com]

thanks, corboy. i'm beginning to wonder how anyone holds up in these seminars, no matter how skeptical. she did go into it saying "hmm, this is rumored to be a cult, i'm gonna keep my mind open..."

the more i read about the tactics they use, the more i understand why it's a rarity to *not* be deceived.

i guess the better way to phrase my issue is: do i even have a right to try to convince my friend of the deceit she's been exposed to? is it in my hands at all, or do i need to just watch and wait to see what she figures out on her own? i've read a lot of what this site has to say about supporting family/friends through cult stuff, but i believe landmark isn't harmful in the same way as other cults are - so it's much harder to justify intervention of whatever kind.

how do you tell someone they're being robbed and cheated when they are willingly handing over their money and emotions?

and hope it blows over. Or that someone else gives her the bad news so she doesn't associate YOU with the humiliation she will feel.


If she's having some success, which is quite likely at first, she will probably be in for a while. Depending on various factors, it could be a long haul. Years sometimes. If she deepens her involvement, she will likely become cagier and more adept at deflecting what you say. She will also begin to see YOU in a more critical, "unenlightened" light.


Some smart cookies begin to sense the hypocrisy early on, if they get involved with other members or start "assisting." Unfortunately, it will probably take some kind of setback or misfortune for her to start questioning the group, and by that time she will have invested a good deal of time, energy, and money which will make it that much more difficult for her to face reality. She has apparently already prepared herself to counter whatever criticisms you come up with.


Landmark is poisonous to normal relationships. It is designed that way to keep her oriented towards the group and away from outsiders. My advice would be to forget this one for a while. And get a copy of "Outrageous Betrayal" to read yourself. Then send it to her anonymously.



Ellen

I can identify. you described the situation between my sister and my myself.

since then, we don't talk. she decided she could make decisions for me and I send her an e-mail saying to keep away and telling her that I would keep away from her. I did it out alienation and in part for revenge.

I have felt contempt for her. lack of respect for her and thinking like, anyone stupid enough to get caught up deserves. I hate her so much it pleases me.

she has said that she felt ignored in favor of me, the "smart one", in the family. me trying to talk her out of Landmark, when I bothered, I do not now, obviously, has made that difficult, because that would make me, again, the smart one.

on the good side, Landmark influence does tend to wear off. a number of grads have told me that after two years they could start seeing through the commercial aspect and would not respond to the manipulations.

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elena
Landmark is poisonous to normal relationships. It is designed that way to keep her oriented towards the group and away from outsiders. My advice would be to forget this one for a while. And get a copy of "Outrageous Betrayal" to read yourself. Then send it to her anonymously.

great book. I thought the same myself and yes I thought of sending my sister a copy. when I thought about it some more I thought it might just alienate her.

if you meet a disenchanted Landmark grad and put that grad in touch, that would have much more effect.

Socrates has given some great tips on what you can do.

your scenario sounds familiar. A month ago a landmarkian friend who's now taking the SELP class and I agreed to disagree that "landmark is not a cult (because it has no religious leader) but has cult-ish aspects."

a few weeks later she told me that someone in her class had THE SAME OBJECTIONS to landmark, but he 'embraces' the idea that some of the landmark ideas or practices are culty but that it is not a cult.

urgh. it may not be a cult but i see it as harmful. she went on to give me the usual 'every subgroup has its own jargon' spiel, what makes landmark different? the marines don't try to get you to pay money to sign up for new classes, that's what.

my friend is totally involved in her SELP and her assignment this week is to ask for the impossible (within the realm of the possible). one guy in her class had missed workday sessions three times, and was told he could not continue unless he made up the last one before the next class. the only makeup class between now and then is one in Seattle. (He's in NYC.) and he's broke most of the time.

so he 'stood for the possibility' of everyone in the room giving him $5. then he'd have $200 and he could stretch his budget to make up the other $200 to go.

the leader told him that there was a rule against soliciting $ in the rooms. (maybe this was brought on by another story i read here about a woman asking for $20 from each participant to go on vacation, and people did.) but it was said with a nod and the guy was encouraged by other people to stand by the door and see if people offered him $. he cleared $180.

yo, all i gotta say is- she'd better not be asking me for $ as part of her impossible things.

-val

Bad news story here.

One buddy of mine became so obnoxious and confrontational with his Landmarking, i warned him numerous times to stop it, he just kept at it.

Bottom line, the friendship ended.

Coz

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Cosmophilospher
Bad news story here.

One buddy of mine became so obnoxious and confrontational with his Landmarking, i warned him numerous times to stop it, he just kept at it.

Bottom line, the friendship ended.

Coz

Sorry to hear that, Coz. My friend says that she's going to take a break after SELP to work on her own businesses. I hope the break becomes permanent.

I was telling my Dad in L.A. about Landmark, and he thought it might not be so harmful because he was involved with Summit in the 70s. I reminded him about all the anti-cult stuff they taught us during childhood, including watching an anti-Moonie film. He likes to think of Summit as benign; I equated it to the group-think I felt at a religious summer camp.
Ugh.

-Val

Hi!

I'm new to this board...just wondering how it's going with your friend?

Parrot