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ellenaaa
Werner Erhard started his est "training" in the early 1970s. His major influences were "Think And Grow Rich," by Napoleon Hill, "Psycho-cybernteics," by Maxwell Maltz, and L. Ron Hubbard's scientology. He wasn't educated or informed enough to have ever heard of Heiddeger. Later, when some of his followers suggested his clap-trap sounded vaguely Heiddegerian, he latched on to the suggestion, no doubt thinking it gave his nonsense a more prestigious appeal. It was pasted on to what he had already started. The stuff you quoted at the beginning of your post is really from L. Ron Hubbard, which has its own bizarre derivations. There is also a subtext of the nihilism or existentialism which was pervasive in the post-war period of Werner Erhard's earlier years, though he was never much interested in any rarified philosophical pondering but rather what he could use to bend his followers' minds into sales machines.


Ellen

Actually Werner states his stuff is from Heiddeger...and he did meet with many highly intellegent infulencial people in San Francisco in developing the est training. Unless you have met him and he told you that he was influenced by something else...I think his own words about his influence speak for itself.

This video shows Erhard clearly speaking about Heiddeger...clearly using Heiddeger's thinking.
[www.youtube.com]

This video (starting just prior to 5:00) shows how all the great minds of the day met regularly at Werner Erhard's home in San Francisco.
[www.youtube.com]

If people want the inside dope on what is really done in LEC, run a search for all the posts by Guy, who was a former employee and Forum Leader

It really didnt matter whose philosphies Erhard used. What mattered was the nuts and bolts 'tech' (technology) of social manipulation Erhard had learned from Scientology and Mind Dynamics.

These were the active ingredients. The stuff from philosophers and the references to Zen (inaccurate, BTW) were the capsule in which the secret, active ingredient was slipped down people's gullets.


When Guy appeared here and posted, a lot of trolls showed up to disrupt the discussions.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Another user, gc4062 was quoted extensively and the inside information provided by this person was also valuable.

And a lot of trolls showed up.

[forum.culteducation.com]

From someone who was in LEC for 4 years.

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Wow! I'm so glad I came here. I was active with Landmark Education...as a program leader and participant for close to 4 years.

I recently terminated my participation after having been subjected to some very negative, abusive experiences in "coaching" sessions with senior program leaders "committed" to me having a breakthrough in being "effective" at sharing the forum with people in my life and at the guest events.

Unfortuantely, like many other people, instead of discovering the realities of how Landmark works by doing investigative research and pursuing further discussions with others, I experienced first-hand that the nasty, foul heritage and history of this organization is alive, real and will never cease.

Like Guy, I experienced firsthand what it was like inside the rotten, ugly underbelly and of this organization where people are demeaned, invalidated, and dismissed for expressing a viewpoint that isn't consistent with the "distinctions." Where one day your golden because you registered 3 people in a room of 5 and the next day, you're ineffective pondscum because no one in the room registered. I'm definitely on the pathway to resolving all of the negative, invalidating and abusive experiences that I allowed myself to be subjected to. I look forward to moving on as an individual with a close circle of supportive friends and family...

Thank god I gave them a choice to do the forum or not because who knows if I'd still have them in my life if I used the force and manipulation tactics that I saw so many other graduates employ

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timeless

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ellenaaa
Werner Erhard started his est "training" in the early 1970s. His major influences were "Think And Grow Rich," by Napoleon Hill, "Psycho-cybernteics," by Maxwell Maltz, and L. Ron Hubbard's scientology. He wasn't educated or informed enough to have ever heard of Heiddeger. Later, when some of his followers suggested his clap-trap sounded vaguely Heiddegerian, he latched on to the suggestion, no doubt thinking it gave his nonsense a more prestigious appeal. It was pasted on to what he had already started. The stuff you quoted at the beginning of your post is really from L. Ron Hubbard, which has its own bizarre derivations. There is also a subtext of the nihilism or existentialism which was pervasive in the post-war period of Werner Erhard's earlier years, though he was never much interested in any rarified philosophical pondering but rather what he could use to bend his followers' minds into sales machines.


Ellen

Actually Werner states his stuff is from Heiddeger...and he did meet with many highly intellegent infulencial people in San Francisco in developing the est training. Unless you have met him and he told you that he was influenced by something else...I think his own words about his influence speak for itself.

This video shows Erhard clearly speaking about Heiddeger...clearly using Heiddeger's thinking.
[www.youtube.com]

This video (starting just prior to 5:00) shows how all the great minds of the day met regularly at Werner Erhard's home in San Francisco.
[www.youtube.com]

I've met Werner quite a few times -- assisted at the Franklin House for over a year. Once he said on stage in the late 70's that his current influence is Richard Pryor. He was searching for influences, moving from one to another -- Bucky Fulller, the science of Quantum Physics, Heidegger, etc.

-- Caligari

-- Caligari

I thought you'd all be interested to know about an Erhard Community page on FB that I stumbled across. It leaves no doubt that Landmark leaders are still following his ideas. Its called Werner Erhard's ideas. Its currently visible publicly if you google Werner Erhards ideas.

Its aimed at those who are Landmark leaders and the latest buzz words, new to me anyway, are "ontological" "phenomenological".

All the material is published in a book, The Handbook For Leadership: Knowing, Doing and Being" edited by Snook, Nohria and Khuran last Autumn, Sage Publications 2011.

On the fb page it is described as Harvard Business School's Handbook for teaching leadership. But if you look it up on Amazon, that is not how the book is marketed at all. HBS is only referenced as where two of the editor's trained. It is not a selling point of the book.

I think this book could be old news to many regular readers here. And apologies for repetition. The main point of this post is to say that for those in leadership at LE, the words of WE are still being revered. There is no doubt that he is the man in control from reading this. This is visually underlined by various photographs of WE looking over the shoulder of people typing away at laptops. Subtle, this page is not.

And one poster actually says, "Mr. Erhard is a clear thinker whose contribution is seen everywhere while he is nearly invisible." I suspect the author of this quote means that Erhard's ideas are not given the credit they deserve. But I read it as Erhard is still all over LE and only the marketing has changed. And it also occurs to me, on reflection, that this comment itself might be contrived to underline this idea of the importance of WE's ideas, rather than a spontaneous outpouring of admiration. After all, this page is to keep the drones hooked in.

The WE ideas page actually says very little except repeat words learned from The Forum onwards ie: integrity and authenticity. & repeat the pompous words 'ontological' and 'phenomenlogical' to sound clever. Here's a quote.

"For these authors, integrity, authenticity and being committed to somethng bigger than oneself form the base of ‘the context of leadership,” a context that once mastered, leaves one actually being a leader. It is not enough to know about or simply understand these fundamental factors but rather by following a rigorous phenomenologically based methodology, students have the opportunity to create for themselves a context that leaves them actually being a leader and exercizing leadership effectiely as their natural self expression."

The phrase that sent shivers down my spine was this - "Erhard, Jensen and Granger* anchor this collection by taking dead aim at the BE component."

I've highlighted the word dead. The nihilism of this philosophy is transparent. Dead aim at BE(ing)!!!

I guess if you're tranced out on Landmark, reading these posts and the trigger words top up their hypnotic effect. I'm relieved that it no longer affects me. In fact every time I saw BE, I misread it as BS.

* Michael C Jensen and Karl L Granger have co-authored this chapter with WE. Out of interest I googled their names individually. Jensen did go to HBS but no links to this come up on the first google page. Nothing came up quickly for Granger, he isn't a prominent leader, trainer etc.

I can tell you for a fact that werner erhard's ideas are landmark education. It's not that they influence landmark, or have some bearing on it: Landmark IS EST, just in a new more slickly marketed package.

Most of the people who 'lead' the landmark forum were senior EST people who were trained and worked for werner erhard under EST. They were his inner circle and core group.

Landmark Education is itself erhard's intellectual property (if you can call it 'intellectual' in any way). If you look at the complexities of the structure that was created in making EST into landmark, it is questionable as to whether he ever did really sell it or if some complex legal activities happened making it look like landmark was a separate company which was not owned by him, but which still gave him significant power and influence, if not actually having him still be THE main power but just behind the scenes. I recall reading erhard actually saying that due to the problems he was having in the US, he had to get himself out of the picture, and create something where he could be in the background.

If you watch any old werner erhard videos, and see any landmark "leaders" in practice you will see how eerily similar in style, tone, voice and bodily movements they are to him. They are taught to "recreate" him - which means to do what he does, as closely as possible.

I assume you don't know how landmark leaders get trained? A lot of it is reading from a manual and learning the manual off by heart, and then repeating it over and over again in front of people (in introductions etc), in addition to long 'training' weekends. What this means is that erhard has written down his stuff and it simply gets passed on down the food chain, with new trainees simply reading and memorizing it over and over again.

Ontology is a big word at landmark education these days. They are using big words like that to hook people and to make people believe that they are talking about something scientific and objective. When I did the forum I was told that it would be an inquiry into the nature of being, that it is ontological work. It's also why they use words such as 'technology' and 'inquiry' etc. What's scary is that erhard is going into colleges and taking his perverted use of the word 'integrity' and actually trying to redefine integrity in the public sphere, for his own ends. Now he's trying to be a 'scholar'. What a joke.

One of those papers by Michael Jensen is titled: "integrity - without it nothing works". That is taken exactly from landmark. They say that exact phrase repeatedly in landmark. Jensen is most likely in erhard's thrall, thinking of him as some kind of guru. BTW, Jensen is not an HBS grad, he is on the HBS faculty, and is a professor. For him to put his professional reputation on the line in this way, he must believe that erhard is someone very special. What Jensen hasn't realized is that not all leaders are good leaders.

I'm surprised that this charlatan (erhard) can still operate and hasn't been called out for what he is yet.

Hi Newfuture,

Thanks for the support. I was aware that Erhard's ideas are Landmark newly packaged. I posted this because their official line is that he has moved away and that they are now a separate company. This was how he was presented to us when I did the Forum. & for people who haven't been involved or are newly involved, they might appreciate this information.

Yes I had some idea on how they train the leaders. Partly from my own observations - reading from a script, highly slick performance. And from what I've read on here. One poster said how they train to hold a fake smile for up to 2 minutes, watching themselves in a mirror. Sent shivers down me. Good to have more information on this too.

Thanks for the correction to Jensen's credentials.

@GloriaG - yes you get 'trained' in a number of strange techniques. I'm glad to say that when I did that leadership programme I didn't do any of the homework. The homework includes 'mirror work' which is standing in front of the mirror and practicing being 'ten times more excited' for up to two minutes - faking excitement in other words. There is another where you are supposed to stand and stare at yourself in the mirror, and to just 'be' with yourself and 'notice what comes up for you'.

There is another weird exercise where you have memorize a poem about a mosquito and you have to perform it in a very excitable manner on one of the training weekends in front of a group.

You also prepare 'shares' which are the stories you hear leaders tell about the breakthroughs and 'transformations' they had from the forum. These are rehearsed over and over again, and before introduction leaders lead introductions, there is a whole process for creating new shares, making the shares 'vivid' (they call him "vivid shares") with exact scripts for the format of the share, length, that it should include the creation of a new possibility and a 'victory over the past'. This is all part of the training for 'leadership'. Before leading an introduction, an introduction leader is processed by several people so that they are 'clear' when it comes to leading, and are coached in how to most effectively deliver their 'vivid share', rehearse the share and do the 'mirror work' where they practice smiling and being excited etc.

You are right that when people do the forum they are not told of the connection that werner erhard still has to landmark or that it is 100% based on est - they lie and say it's something new and different. landmark lies about everything. everything they say is a lie. It is all subjective opinion and not fact, which is what they present it as.

@newfuture. So glad you escaped! That all sounds very scary indeed. But so good that you're putting this out there for us all to see behind the fake facade.

You reminded me of a moment at my Advanced Course. I made an innocuous comment - ie a share - to the group - nothing personal. But I have poise and speak well. The woman who ran my introduction leader course was there that night. Afterwards she came up to me and whispered in my ear, "great share. Think about the Introduction Leader programme." And that is such a clever manipulative device. I felt special and I was considering doing it as I had no idea, at that point, I would have to pay for it. Thankfully I awoke from my Landmark spell not long after that. From reading your account, they must do what happened to me all the time to get more 'victims.'

And the last point you make is partly why it hurt me so much when I escaped. That I fell for their lies because it was dressed as fact. But I'm over that part now, with a valuable lesson learned.

But I'm still shaken even now, by discovering afterwards, their nasty techniques, as you describe above - faking excitement, group hypnosis, trance and mind control. The physical high I experienced after the Forum is actually evil. Yes it sort of felt good but not really because deep in my subconscious I knew something wasn't right. That and the terrible fear they made me feel in the Advanced Course. That is why, like you, I would love them to be exposed and disbanded.

@gloriaG - Yes, there is no doubt that they watch and groom people. I was picked out for similar reasons. They want successful, articulate, poised people who have credibility in their regular lives as these people will find it easier to recruit others because of the "listening" (as landmark calls it) that others have for them. But they also want to smash your individuality out of you so that they can fill your head with landmark programming. That's a paradox that makes it hard for successful people - who tend to be strong willed - to go all the way through.

Many of the people who went through into the higher ranks seemed to be to be the most weak minded.....They were willing to follow instructions without asking questions and desperate to please, and at times desperate for some power because they didn't have much/any outside of landmark. Some people I met were bus drivers and doing menial jobs (about 1% in my leadership programme were doctors/lawyers but few and far between) so imagine for them they have this opportunity to stand up in front of hundreds of people and be the boss and tell them what to do! Opportunity of a lifetime! I found many also to be without their own moral compass and without strong sense of their own principles. It's sad really.

It is hard to get people who have been genuinely successful to believe that they need landmark to be successful when they have already experienced success in the real world and most likely know plenty of other successful people who have done well in life without landmark. At some point, I experienced such deep cognitive dissonance where I knew in my heart of hearts that those people wanted me to give up my entire life to them, and I just could not do it. They'd had enough of my time, energy and money and even parts of myself, and I was not going to go further into the labyrinth.

I too had so much fear after doing the courses and to this day I'm not sure why. I was disturbed by the landmark forum leader saying that you die and your family and friends throw dirt in your face and then go off for a drink and life goes on. In my mind I heard this as nobody really cares about you. Any of us who have gone to a funeral know that is no pleasant matter and goes much deeper than throwing dirt in your deceased loved ones friends. It's an insulting image when I think about it. I was also disturbed by the "there is no hope, no change and things will never get better" pronouncement in the forum. In the advanced course, there was a lot I didn't understand, but what got me was having to tell our 'stories' over and over again. They call this the "disappearing suffering"part but for the life of me I do not know in what world people suffer less by telling their sad incidents over and over again.

I'm happy you are out. I'm happy I am out. I have much more I can say to expose these guys. I know a lot and saw behind the veil. I pray that other people get something out of this forum. It is the most evil, disturbing and destructive set of experiences that I have ever had in my life - and I pray to God to never have to experience again.