I appreciate your advice -- you certainly have experience with these things and I do not, so I respect your opinion. However, I am not sure you really answered my question (or allowed me to answer it myself) because I sense that you are seeing the whole thing through the filter of your ultimately negative experience. Although I am very skeptical (like you, I am a lawyer), I have heard that most participants are actually happy with the experience. In your view, are most of them mildly brainwashed by HAI, not realizing they were manipulated for sex or money, or did many truly have a good experience? It seems to me that you must have had years of positive experience before concluding that it was negative because of the effect on your marriage.

I also sense that your final comment about sex was somewhat sarcastic (sex sells). Without discounting your view that you and other women were sexually manipulated by men under the guise of HAI principles, isn't it possible for adults who don't know each other very well to have a positive sexual experience? Keep in mind that I have never had anonymous sex or sex with someone I did not know well, and apparently, you have. I am not judging the morality of that -- just making it clear where I am coming from. I am wondering why it would be bad for me to have the type of experience that you used to enjoy.

Is HAI really about requiring you to bare all of your weaknesses and then have it rubbed in your face? Or does HAI offer respect and friendship? These are honest questions -- I have no agenda here. Please let me know whether my probing is annoying you or you welcome the discussion.

I’m becoming a little confused with your train of thought so I want to clarify my understanding of your questions. Please identify if my understandings are incorrect:

Your first post expressed concern about the secrecy among graduates and wanted to know what actually occurs while expressing the thought
that a potential recruit should be able to consider in advance the wisdom of taking part in activities that may give them pause retroactively.
(I agree with you on this point. I believe it is inappropriate for HAI to be as secretive as it is, and this is a significant indication of cult-like
behavior.)

In your second post, you again expressed concern about the secret agenda, and then suggested that there might be legitimate situations
where HAI could present opportunities for sex, romance and friendship, such as people who truly need sex like single people who are not
meeting suitable partners, or people stuck in broken marriages but who are not free to end the relationship. (I suggest that people with
these issues have better, cheaper, and more direct ways of solving their problems.)

Your question was, “if you discount the profound lessons that they claim to offer, you are not concerned about the effect on an existing
relationship, and you view it simply as a means to have an interesting experience and meet people, would it be a mistake to participate for
those reasons?” (I think your logic is flawed and circular, but participating for these specific reasons is your decision.)

In your next post, you state: “I have heard that most participants are actually happy with the experience…did many truly have a good
experience? It seems to me that you must have had years of positive experience before concluding that it was negative because of the effect
on your marriage.” (I simply ask how many of the regular participants at HAI truly have good relationships with their family, and with their
outside friends? Cutting off family and having good relationships only within the group and not with others is another significant sign of
cult-like behavior.)

and …”I am wondering why it would be bad for me to have the type of experience that you used to enjoy.” (This is your decision.)

and finally… “does HAI offer respect and friendship? These are honest questions -- I have no agenda here. Please let me know whether my
probing is annoying you or you welcome the discussion.” (You seem to have gone from a cynical concern about the secrecy at HAI to
praising them for their proffered respect and friendship. Your questions are fair, your cynicism and sarcasm is unnecessary.)

I have suggested that you consider HAI to be like LANDMARK (EST). The people who remain in these groups always claim that they have found their happiness. I also suggest that those folks who followed Jim Jones called themselves happy as they drank the poisoned Kool-Aid. It is my belief, my opinion, and the result of my experience, that true self-help workshops should be designed to send their participants out into the worlds as healed individuals, not keep them in the fold as long as possible in order to provide the funds necessary to continue the cult’s business. I left the "family" more than once, and only went back because I found a relationship outside of HAI and believed their hype about making relationships better. Boy, was I fooled.

The people who run HAI are not trained in any of the healing professions. They are not licensed to provide specific psychological support to individuals. Yet, they do and their untrained interns specifically deal with people who are going through extreme psychological stress. There are many people who are traumatized by the HAI experience. This should be against the law, but it isn’t.

HAI talks a big story about healing relationships, but they don’t do it….I know of one leadership “team” that appeared to be a committed relationship until they broke up because one person was too busy having sex with all the participants and didn’t have enough desire, time, or energy to put into the primary relationship. I was able to speak with both of them, independently, and came away realizing how much they had hurt each other, and how much their relationship did not represent the purported philosophy of HAI. In other words, their actions spoke louder than the words.

Stan Dale came up with a self-help workshop at a time when developing these workshops was extremely popular and lucrative. He figured out the marketing scheme that “sex sells” and bought into the notion that was very popular in the 70’s and 80’s that “it’s all about sex.” It is my personal opinion that we, as a society, have moved beyond that. However, there are certainly plenty of people who still buy into it. These people often call themselves polyamourous and sell sex as a lifestyle.

In your postings, you seem to be asking for opinions and information about HAI. I have given you my opinion, and I am very clear that I would not recommend the experience to anyone….even though I participated and early in the experience, found some value. It is my opinion that I would have been better off seeking professional therapy for my specific issues at the time. It is my choice to find better avenues to meet people in social situations, and to address my relationship issues directly instead of surreptitiously sneaking around looking for sex outside of my commitments.

You are certainly free to make your own decision. I hope this string has been useful.

I appreciate your responses and I think you have answered my questions. I am not sure what confused you about my train of thought and I have no idea why you found my logic flawed and circular -- I am simply asking questions. You said:

Your question was, “if you discount the profound lessons that they claim to offer, you are not concerned about the effect on an existing
relationship, and you view it simply as a means to have an interesting experience and meet people, would it be a mistake to participate for
those reasons?” (I think your logic is flawed and circular, but participating for these specific reasons is your decision.)


What was the logic that was flawed and circular?

You implied that no HAI participant really has a good experience because its cult like behavior necessarily causes people to cut off all relationships except those within the group. I have never attended a HAI workshop but I would never have the slightest thought of cutting off any relationships and drinking that much HAI cool aid. Are they really so ominous and effective that they can have that effect on me? Is that truly what they want to do to all participants? I am very skeptical but didn't think HAI was generally viewed as so extreme. Do you stand by your Jim Jones analogy or was that a gross exaggeration to make your point?

Your comments about HAI being bad pseudo-therapy and failing to heal people are well taken but I am not looking for healing or therapy and that is not really what they claim to be selling. Do all participants come there in an emotionally damaged and fragile state and in need of therapy -- or are some of them just healthy normal human beings looking for a new experience or a new way of relating to other people? If they are all basket cases, then I would have no interest. But you apparently made friends and relationships -- were you really high on their cool aid all that time? I do like the idea of meeting new people and getting to know them intimately in a safe way. So that's all this is about for me. I get that you are suggesting that I stay away from HAI for all the reasons you cited. I probably will.

However, I was particularly confused by your following statement:

(You seem to have gone from a cynical concern about the secrecy at HAI to
praising them for their proffered respect and friendship. Your questions are fair, your cynicism and sarcasm is unnecessary.)

I have not been inconsistent at all -- I am simply asking you if the positive part that originally attracted me actually exists -- I was not praising them because I don't know them at all. That is why I am asking questions of someone like you who knows them well. And where did you find cynicism and sarcasm in anything I said? That comment totally confused me. I started this discussion with you because you seem to be an intelligent and sincere person who knows HAI very well.

You answered some of my questions by saying it is "my decision" -- that is fairly obvious -- I wasn't asking your permission, just your advice. I am clear on your advice.

Thanks again for your help (honestly, no sarcasm there) I did find your responses useful. However, I am left with a slight feeling that you are angry and therefore not completely able to answer my question in a purely objective manner. On the other hand, maybe you just saved me a bunch of money and a horrendous weekend.












I have no idea why you said I was

Well, I can't resist sharing one more tidbit about how Dennis Jimmink destroyed himself...and how he has now destroyed his two lawyers. And yes, we are still embroiled in Dennis' legal shenanigans.

Somehow, these two lawyers were so enchanted by Dennis that they threw caution and all legal ethics to the wind and believed his "poor pitiful me" story....now both lawyers, Jeanette Rice and Bruce Desimone of the firm of Walsh, Becker, Moody, and Rice in Bowie, Maryland have been the subject of the court's scorn. They believed Dennis, and now they have been chastised by the court and are in trouble with the State Bar Association of Maryland!

Last week, a Federal Judge issued the following statement regarding the work done by these two lawyers: "Next, the Defendant’s Answer filed in the Circuit Court for Prince George’s County, Maryland, Case No. CAL 08-28966, filed by bankruptcy counsel’s partner in the firm of Walsh, Becker, Moody & Rice contains serious misstatements of fact and law that appear designed to mislead the Circuit Court Judge." He then went into great detail to explain every serious mistatements of fact and law.

Lawyers don't do this unless they have been mesmerized by the client to the point that they feel they must "rescue" him at all cost! They lied to the court ad got caught!

Bye bye Chip ...

[forum.culteducation.com]

Wonder who is next to go?

Isn't this interesting about Chip....as I said, HAI is destructive to relationships.

I find it most instructive that Chip wants to date without his "work" interfering...what about how much HAI might have interfered with his primary relationship....the temptation of all those wonderful naked women making themselves available to him. The temptation of the HAI philosophy that free love and free sex is the best thing for a relationship?

This has to say something about the HAI leaders...how many of the leaders and facilitators have had long-term temporary relationships and then simply made it "sound good" when they broke up.

Isn't HAI all about making relationships work? What didn't work here?

HAI is supposed to be out making relationship works... as long as the relationships are polyamory at best, and group sex at worst.

I am THRILLED... the latest HAI Level 1 workshop in the midwest had to be canceled because there simply isn't enough participants. Yay!! now if only it would spread to the rest of the organization.

A lot of concern is raised in these forums about rant, untrained amateurs applying psychotherapy on unwitting participants.

This is especially so with Mankind Project (MK) on their New Warrior weekend after which there has even been suicides.

Then there is the situation engineered by James Ray which resulted in a number of deaths caused by the appallingly run sweat lodge experiences.

There are the abusive [*] Osho workshops as run at OshoLeela (UK) and Humaniversity (NL) and Poone (IN). [*] mentally, spiritually, physically. And you need an AIDS test before admittance.

But I would also opine that HAI workshops are equally dangerous, both mentally and spiritually. This is because the facilitators, invariably Americans, ARE trained in psychotherapy and hypnosis, etc. So on HAI workshops they can really take participants into deep places within their psyche, they can strip layers of protection from people's minds, and replace them with their own thoughts. They can hypnotise participants into believing that the next workshop will always be better than the current one, that there is always another step to go, another weekend to pay for, that the process never finishes.

This is shades of Landmark and Scientology. I wonder if there are connections between all of these?

The common factor in all of these cults and LGATs is that there is never adequate and professional support to help participants afterwards who might have had a bad reaction to a weekend.

Here's a free book about organisations and how they influence unwitting people:

The-Hidden-Persuaders

[www.ebookee.com]
[w17.easy-share.com]

Its a classic. The author has received death threats for revealing the secrets.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2010 11:20PM by SeekingTruth.