Hi all. This is my first post since joining the forum last night. I am very curious about Landmark Education since my dad is involved in this and hope I can get at least some of the answers here.

I am trying to get a level-headed read on it. I spent all day yesterday researching as much as I could on this, and found that, like anything, there are extremes of opinion out there. Some are saying it's an evil cult that must be stopped, others are saying it's a program that may not be for everyone, or perhaps may contain some benefit albeit with expected high pressure tactics. So, I'm trying to be as objective as possible to understand it as best I can.

The reason for my concern is that over the past couple years, several tragic events have unfolded and I am beginning to suspect his involvement in this type program as at least part of the cause. I'd like to get input especially from anyone whose lives were similarly affected. Please bear with my story here, I will try to give as accurate as possible background for all this.

The first signs started about 8 years ago, I was told by my mother that she had been contacted by the police having found my dad's abandoned car in the woods. At the time he had told her he was on a business trip, nowhere near where the car was found. Apparently, after he came back a couple days later he confessed that he was attending some sort of group event, the details of which he would not discuss with her.

Then, two years ago, I was surprised by my mom when during a visit she disclosed to me that they were having problems with their marriage. It was odd to me because my parents are extremely conservative/traditional and never discuss such things. She didn't say much however other than he was extremely consumed by his work and other things that she didn't understand. Two weeks after that visit, she told me that they were breaking up. They had been married, seemingly without problem, for 35 years. I don't remember them having a single fight.

At this time all the weird signs started pouring in. Being distraught, my mom was talking more openly and told me that basically he had came back from some weekend trip and dropped this bombshell on her that he wasn't happy and needed out. She didn't understand. She also couldn't get a straight answer out of him as to exactly what was the problem. Apparently, he wouldn't tell her anything specific, just things like "I need to work on myself". Now, my mom was 62 years old at that time and in failing health, and he was kicking her out of the house. And without the slightest hint of an actual concrete reason? One thing she did know however, is that he was still committed to go to his mystery meetings a couple nights a week. We were all stunned.

Other weird signs: Months later, after my mom moved out, and moved in with my sister, the attorneys became involved. He'd kicked her out but couldn't give her a straight answer whether he actually wanted divorce. My mom couldn't sit on pins and needles waiting and so tried to force his hand, at which point their relationship became the most strained. At this point, he would act even more bizarre by calling her up out of the blue and nonchalantly asking things like "Hey, I want to mop the floors here; what's the best kind of floor cleaner?", among other trivial things. My mom felt somewhat taunted by his lack of regard for her and the whole situation. Finally, about 6 months after he broke this news to her, she took her life.

During this whole ordeal my sister had decided she never wanted to talk to my dad ever again. Other family members also shunned him. I myself kept in close contact with my dad, since I was mostly stunned and confused during this time about what was going on and wanted to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and just be there for them. My dad was for the first time talking to me about very personal stuff, breaking down and crying about very deep things, choices he'd made in his life, etc. that he wasn't happy with and was trying to change. In a way, it seemed somewhat positive for him, like this was some sort of cathartic experience from which he would come out stronger. Except for the fact that a long relationship and whole person was destroyed in the process.

Now is when the Landmark stuff really comes into the picture. I hadn't up to this point been aware of his involvement with the programs, other than the hints my mom gave but didn't think a whole lot about. But now in conversation he started saying strange things: of my sisters refusal to speak with him, he would say: "You know, that's just her racket, there's nothing I can do about it". Of my brother's wife, who had some harsh words for him, he would say things like "She's created these stories in her head, she's already decided what it is, and there's nothing I can do to change her mind". He started using this weird language with "rackets" and "stories" and "acts". With each visit he would want to sort re-hash and then summarize his problems with other family members using this sort of empty jargon. I asked him where this stuff is coming from and he told me about Landmark. I don't know how long he's been regularly involved with this particular group, but I suspect a couple years.

The biggest problem I see with their teachings it is that it appears to be sort of an enticing but dangerous panacea for real problems by essentially absolving them of responsibility--they teach that people essentially bring the things on themselves, and that if you are having a problem with something, you can just abstract the real problem to a mere thought and "just let it go". My mother had just died, and he's basically attacking and criticizing family members for having strong feelings about it, saying they should just "let it go".

At this point, he appears to want to repair these relationships that have been broken or strained over the past years. I don't think it going to happen, though, because this thing he's become involved with seems to teach how to alienate and disrespect people more than actually maintain healthy relationships. Since he's always wanting to talk to me about these situations, I try to give him my perspective--based on reality--about respecting people and not just reducing them to, and dismissing them as theoretical philosophical constructs. He doesn't seem to get it and continues ever more with this weird mindset.

Questions:
- Am I over-estimating this as a problem? Is it common for such seemingly transparent groups to have this level of effect on a man?

- He now lives alone with only Landmark friends as acquaintances (nearest willing to communicate with him lives outside the state). Is it possible to break through to get him to see things clearly, for the sake of his and our family's well-being?


Thanks for listening. I appreciate your input.

Landmark "programs" were designed by a narcissist/sociopath. Underneath all, and despite the normal-looking superficial appearance, they are a reflection of his own sick character and personality. Often they provide ammunition or excuse or impetus for people with narcissistic tendencies who might otherwise have been restrained by convention, societal expectations, cultural or religious proscription, or even good manners. There were and are good reasons people referred to Werner Erhard's followers as "est-holes" and called the programs "catnip for the conceited."

On a positive note, often Landmark followers are their own worst enemies. When they attempt to "Landmark" each other they can turn into a dog-on-dog fiasco. Imagine two "stars," two power-trippers, or two control-freaks in a relationship and you'll get the picture. Perhaps whatever shreds of decency he retains will re-assert themselves when he finds out what a cold, cruel place the Landmark universe really is.


Ellen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2008 04:27AM by elena.

Quote
elena
Landmark "programs" were designed by a narcissist/sociopath. Underneath all, and despite the normal-looking superficial appearance, they are a reflection of his own sick character and personality. Often they provide ammunition or excuse or impetus for people with narcissistic tendencies who might otherwise have been restrained by convention, societal expectations, cultural or religious proscription, or even good manners. There were and are good reasons people referred to Werner Erhard's followers as "est-holes" and called the programs "catnip for the conceited."

On a positive note, often Landmark followers are their own worst enemies. When they attempt to "Landmark" each other they can turn into a dog-on-dog fiasco. Imagine two "stars," two power-trippers, or two control-freaks in a relationship and you'll get the picture. Perhaps whatever shreds of decency he retains will re-assert themselves when he finds out what a cold, cruel place the Landmark universe really is.


Ellen

I can relate to the narcissist/sociopath angle of landmark. My friend has been in landmark nice 05. He has become the most cocky person i know. It's very sad. Thinks he knows everything. When things don't go his way, watch out.

thanks for coming here thunderjet.

I am the one saying landmark is an evil cult. I have been there. I was heavily involved with landmark btw 1994-1998.

I truly enjoyed the landmark courses in the beginning. But after a while I started to see that they are screwing with people's minds.

If you have watched my videos on Youtube that is fine. To understand what landmark education is you have to have been there. I have - and I have gotten out.

I hope you will get peace with all that have happened to you and your family. It was probably causes bu landmark.

nettie
an ex introduction leader to the forum who has turned sour....with landmark.....wanting them outlawed

How long has he been involved in Landmark? Has he been involved with it since he stated acting weird 8 years ago or did he just recently become involved with the group? It's odd that he would hide his involvement from the get go. Every Lekkie I've known, including myself, talk about Landmark and try to recruit their friends and family members into the organization.

Landmark will definately destroy relationships and people. I was involved for nine months and my relationships went into the toilet. During my time in Landmark I began to only associate with other Lekkies.

I think it's not quite so black and white. It's almost as cultish to be so vehemently anti-Landmark with such strongly held beliefs as it is to think they are God's gift to humankind. It's not fair or accurate to say things like, "Landmark wil definitely destroy relationships and people." I was involved with it's earlier incarnation when it was still called the est training, in the 70s and 80s, and though I would eventually develop misgivings about them and chose to leave, I wouldn't say it ever destroyed any of my relationships. On the contrary, it helped restore my relationship to my parents and other people close to me, because the training emphasized letting others be as they are and "not making them wrong." Nor did it destroy any of the close friends I made in those days who remain in my life today, 30 years later, and not a one of us is still involved with est or Landmark, and yet I would say we all look back on our time there mostly with appreciation, and humor. I never became a full-on "est-hole" in terms of seeking recruits, but for awhile I did genuinely want people I cared about to have the experience because I had found it exciting and useful. The fact that over the years it developed some cultish tendencies and apparently some people felt abused or harmed by it is not to be dismissed lightly. And certainly this person's story of her father is a nightmare, though we obviously don't have all the facts, nor how much Landmark played a part in it. I just think the whole thing is not quite as black and white as "evil" vs. "good."

Nettie, I would like to see your You-Tube stuff--how do I find it?

Eliezer
www.the99thmonkey.com

(I actually just published a whole chapter about Erhard and est in my new book)

eliezering:

Do you mean to say that your book has positive things to say about est and Erhard?

Is your book about the good things gurus and groups can provide or is it critical?

My book is an account of 30 years of being a spiritual seeker. It includes critical takes as well as appreciations of many leaders over the years. In the case of Erhard and est, it is a little of both, I was neither a True Believer in any of the gurus or spiritual systems I encountered, but nor was I a pure cynic The chapter on est speaks about both the good things I remember and which stay with me, and the shadow side of things I began to get a hint of. Of course I was never in the "inner circle" so perhaps I was spared some of what people are speaking about here. I was somehow always able to walk a line most people couldn't: I had both a certain distance as a journalist that protected me from getting sucked into cults, but also the openness of an ordinary person looking for something that allowed me to receive what benefits were there. When the Moonies got me to their "camp" for a weekend, for example, my experience mimicked exactly the experience of the character depicted in the film mentioned above, Ticket to Heaven. The only difference being, I left Monday morning, even though it meant walking through the woods for miles to find a road and hitchhiking down to SF. The guy in the movie never left.

Eliezer

Quote
Thunderjet2
Questions:
- Am I over-estimating this as a problem? Is it common for such seemingly transparent groups to have this level of effect on a man?

- He now lives alone with only Landmark friends as acquaintances (nearest willing to communicate with him lives outside the state). Is it possible to break through to get him to see things clearly, for the sake of his and our family's well-being?

- You are not over-estimating the problem at all. Its VERY common these days for these group to completely take over people's lives, and even their minds. They are using hundreds of extremely sophisticated techniques. Landmark is not transparent, they are highly deceptive.
These groups are the direct cause for many cases of injury, and suicides, severe depression, bankruptcy, etc. They can wreck certain people's lives.

- It very difficult to get through to people. Sometimes those trying to "help" the person inside get sucked in themselves. Sadly, are no easy solutions.

Quote
eliezering
My book is an account of 30 years of being a spiritual seeker. It includes critical takes as well as appreciations of many leaders over the years. In the case of Erhard and est, it is a little of both, I was neither a True Believer in any of the gurus or spiritual systems I encountered, but nor was I a pure cynic The chapter on est speaks about both the good things I remember and which stay with me, and the shadow side of things I began to get a hint of. Of course I was never in the "inner circle" so perhaps I was spared some of what people are speaking about here. I was somehow always able to walk a line most people couldn't: I had both a certain distance as a journalist that protected me from getting sucked into cults, but also the openness of an ordinary person looking for something that allowed me to receive what benefits were there. When the Moonies got me to their "camp" for a weekend, for example, my experience mimicked exactly the experience of the character depicted in the film mentioned above, Ticket to Heaven. The only difference being, I left Monday morning, even though it meant walking through the woods for miles to find a road and hitchhiking down to SF. The guy in the movie never left.

Eliezer

I dunno. I'm not convinced.

My quick take is that you seem far too self-congratulatory and far too forgiving of the spiritual "ists" -- the counterfeit gurus and purveyors of spiritual snake-oil.

They succeed because, mostly, people get better all by themselves or grasp at spiritual straws and think they've found salvation. The placebo effect is real, up to a point. The history of these "movements" is littered with the burnt-out husks of phenomenally successful and charismatic mega-messiah types. Aimee Semple McPherson comes to mind as a good example. Sure, I could make the argument that thousands of people were uplifted, millions of suffering souls comforted, and bucket-loads of ordinary misery salved. But so what? It was all fantasy and people wanting desperately to believe. I can't think of anything more discouraging or pathetic about the human race than this persistent desire for some pie-in-the-sky existence in some other imaginary place and the slavish worship of these all-too-human scammers who know a business opportunity when they see it.


Ellen