Hello--
As you are probably well-aware, est is the precursor to the Forum and Landmark.
Back in the late 70s and early 80s, my entire family was est. I grew up steeped in it, though I never (thanks to my rational mom -- my parents were divorced and dad's was the est side) actually "did" the training. I participated in and assisted at several workshops.

I'm looking for other people in my situation -- who grew up in est. My belief is that it was irresponsible at best of my family -- and est -- to use est-ian psychology on children. In fact, I believe it harmed me and the other children in my family very much. There must be others out there like me, yes?

Thank you!

Quote
h_r
Hello--
As you are probably well-aware, est is the precursor to the Forum and Landmark.
Back in the late 70s and early 80s, my entire family was est. I grew up steeped in it, though I never (thanks to my rational mom -- my parents were divorced and dad's was the est side) actually "did" the training. I participated in and assisted at several workshops.

I'm looking for other people in my situation -- who grew up in est. My belief is that it was irresponsible at best of my family -- and est -- to use est-ian psychology on children. In fact, I believe it harmed me and the other children in my family very much. There must be others out there like me, yes?

Thank you!

A few years ago "Grizz" posted several messages to alt.fan.landmark which were some of the best condemnations of Landmark I've ever read. You can pull up the others by searching "Grizz" within the group.


Ellen



Grizz

Mar 9 2002, 7:59 am
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
From: heychec...@yahoo.com (Grizz)

Subject: 24 years of brianwashed thinking

i would like to know if there is anyone out there stuggling with the
same issues that i have encountered....

first , my story:

I was 14, my dad got "enrolled" in est (1976). He proceeded to have
everyone in the family take the training and himself go on to being a
"guest seminar leader"
with the aspirations of becoming a "trainer" himself. He began
practising on me...i would have to sit through 4 hour sessions of him
telling me to "get off it" and to "be responsible for my own
experience" This was all mixed in with people calling me endlessly to
"assist" and badgering me unmercilessly to do seminars and courses.
Our entire life was est...(you get the picture, right?)

Ok, now....fast forward...today. Dad is still leading seminars, still
telling me to get off it...i have not had anything to do with landmark
for at least 14 years and i am down right hostile twards anyone who
throws jargon at me.
Just 2 weeks ago, while in intensive pshycotherapy i discovered that i
actually grew up in a cult...est.
I've seen how doing it at such an early age, basically in my
formulative years, i developed quite a few basic beliefs that are
wrong and really hard to live with...for example...those 4 hour
sessions with my dad taught me that whatever I'm feeling is not
valid...that i can deny it all ("get off it")That I am not okay the
way i am...that anyone who has not done est is not enlightened and
therefore we "graduates" are better that anyone else and everyone else
is "on it" and stupid to the way it "really is"...I have been trying
to figure out how to fit into society and not take a me against the
world attitude ever since...

Mostly, i have a problem knowing what is actually real. I cant tell if
a situation is good or bad for me or if I'm happy because i have been
taught that i can just "get off it and create a new conversation"
basically settling for anything by denying what i feel for the last 24
years. My other problem is this...Most people take these courses as an
adult, with thier ideas and opinions about themselves and the world
already in place, so that when they realize they have been conned by a
cult, they have some sense of self to fall back on. Since est and the
forum are what i formulated my views from, i have nothing to fall back
on and I am finding myself quite terrified, empty and having no clue
what part of me is real...

Anyway, i would like to know if anyone out there was put into the
little kids training and what you are experiencing as a result of it.
Or even if you weren't a kid, but are just having trouble with
pshycological issues as a result of being in the forum or est.

I am not interested in hearing anyones counterpoint to all that i've
said, i don't want to hear from people who are sill gung-ho, trying to
convince us wounded souls that we just went astray, and if we would
only take a seminar, everything will be alright....bite me and go _ _
_ _ yourself at the same time!

told you i was hostile twards anything positive anyone has to say
about these experiences...

ok, i'm done for now...

Grizz

My father and stepmother were in Scientology, then my father was ex-communicated and my sister left Scientology to stay with him. Then she went to an est seminar. She told me about it. I told it sounded incredibly inhumanitarian and cruel -- I was probably about 12, and I've always been outspoken. She said, "It's fine, people get over things, and we need to be allowed to communicate our anger." Yep, that's right, expressing anger in a destructive way is "good" because those who experience the destruction can just get over it, including children being verbally abused by their parents.

I lived with my grandparents while he was in Scientology, so I wasn't part of his life when he was active in that cult. However, when I was eight years old he returned to my hometown and I stayed with him on weekends, and then full time when I was a bit older.

I didn't quite realize until I had read A Piece of Blue Sky that I realized how much I was raised with Scientology concepts and attitudes. Ignoring a response and repeating a question/response. Using the word "flunk" to give negative feedback. And other creepier things I'm not in the mood to delve into just now.

One that sticks with me is that when I became ill, common cold or something severe, my sister was rewarded for not manipulating them, as I was. This lasted until my sister (my stepmothers own child) because extremely ill. I guess her maternal instincts kicked in, and then they couldn't reasonably treat me that way anymore.

Thanks for your responses.

I don't have the first clue how to heal this, or how deep the wounds may go. Therapists don't seem to know what do to about it. It's amazing to me that people are still falling for the Forum bull; whenever I hear those people talk, I can tell within a few moments -- from the very tone of their voices -- what they're into, and I simply want to run away. If Erhard Spits, or whatever name he's going by today, winds up back in the states, I'd love to have a few words with him (at least). How does that man sleep at night?

I have also found that therapists are incredibly clueless on this issue. They also don't seem to understand that I am naturally going to be VERY resistant to just swallowing up their advice. I have found a lot of therapists just want to be their own cult leader. It infuriates me. I'm not very well suited to therapy at all, is what I finally decided.

What I've done instead is read a lot of books, especially textbooks intended for clinical psychologists. Most of the best minds in psychotherapy agree on two things. 1) You have to change the meaning of what happened to you (the basis of Cognitive-Behavior Therapy) and 2) You have to regulate your emotions , ie, your autonomic nervous system arousal (which is as much a physiological skill as anything).

Essentially I go looking for techniques that help with either of these, and ignore the b***s*** attached to it otherwise. :)

To exscientologykid: I am actually a therapist with a huge interest in the connection between LGATs and trauma. PM me. Tell me where you live and I may be able to help you find a therapist who knows what he or she is doing.

CBT will only go so far. Something much deeper is needed along with CBT. Most good therapists won't give advice, but rather will ask questions and make connections. The most important part of therapy is having a good connection with a therapist and that may take time.

Sulalee. "Something much deeper is needed." Uh huh. Again, you therapists sound just like them. You have no idea how much. Thanks, but no thanks.

I'm sorry that my language evoked LM for you. Actually, they try to sound just like us. The fact of the matter is that they have taken language from psychology and given it their own special meaning. There are some important differences that I'd be happy to tell you about, but I will let you decide if you want to hear about it. Unlike a LM leader, I have no reason to impose any of my ideas on you. And should you seek therapy, I'd have absolutely nothing to gain from it.

I think that's why I haven't done well in traditional therapy either -- it sounds too much like est, and I don't trust it. I have had success with body-centered psychotherapy (or Hakomi), which focuses on physical sensation and the emotions and memories those sensations elicit. That way, the information comes from *me* and not from a third party who, no matter how hard they try, sounds to me like an est trainer or seminar leader.

Even being in therapy is tricky for us, I think, because it reinforces that there is fundamentally something "wrong" with us, just like we were told there was when we were kids. I don't want my life to "work," I want my life to be joyful. I don't want to "handle" my problems, I want to resolve them. I wish I could erase everything est implanted in my psyche.

Sulalee, the fact that you ASSUMED that I needed therapy is a red flag enough. You know absolutely nothing about me, other than a piece of my childhood, which ended decades ago. Yet you think I need therapy, why is that? It's because that's what you sell. You have nothing to gain from it? You or a colleague have approximately $100-$200/week for months to years to gain from it. And therapy is nothing BUT imposing ideas from therapist to patient. That's what it's for. Once I realized that, I realized that therapy is not what I needed or wanted.

I have had such intensely bad experiences with therapists that I think I probably have PTSD from them. I've had them laugh at me. I've had them be so less informed and intelligent than me that they get angry and tell me "you think you're so smart." I've had them flirt with me. I've had them be so fascinated with my life story they never provided any help for an immediate issue.

I'm sure to someone of your profession that all these experiences sound like a matter of projection. If all my experiences with therapists paralled my experiences with non-therapists, I'd be inclined to agree. But it's only therapists (and cultists) I inherently distrust or have these types of conflicts with. If I trust my significant other, my close friends, my colleagues, why would I need to learn to trust a therapist, other than to give a therapist a job?