Hi mom1313. The thing to know about kids is that they are pretty resilient and, even though they probably will deny it, the thing they want most is to feel secure in their connection with their parents, families, and friends. You have every right to make a decision to take your kids out of LM and to keep them away from it. Your story reads like a classic case of LM trying to draw a whole family in by bringing the kids in first. It is evil and insidious and should not be tolerated.

LM leaders or mentors are not trained to work with children or teenagers, let alone adults. I am a psychologist and I mostly treat young adults and adults. I would never presume to treat an age group I'm not practiced in treating. It would not be ethical. I could get sued and lose my license. Yet, LM, because it sells itself as an un-therapy, isn't held to any ethical or professional standards. When pressed, they'll say, "What we're selling is a product."

In cases when you are feeling ambivalent, the best course to choose is the most parsimonious... Choose what you know in your gut rather than what some outside voice is telling you. Don't let LM rob you of your critical thinking or of your family's well-being.

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mom1313
I hear you. I watched the video.
1. Why - if I felt ok to take my child back there - did I also feel the need to come to an anti-cult website and post about it?

Good question. I had the same "need" before I did the Landmark Forum (for adults). And yet I did it anyway, regardless of what I saw here. I suspect the reason you came here and posted is the same reason that took you - not your child - into the Forum. You wanted answers. I wanted answers as to why my boss was an asshole (right before he fired me).

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mom1313
2. Why did I watch the video and think there wasn't anything relating to the teen forum? Yet I know that you must think that LF was what pushed your friend over the edge. I HEAR your passion - but why did I find myself thinking "it wasn't LF - it just happened that LF was the straw that tipped the camels back" (please take no disrespect in my saying that) - losing someone that way must be horrible!

People get pushed over the edge for various reasons. Dissecting the reason why a neuron in someone's brain fired and had someone off themselves is next to impossible. The best we can do is try to reason about it, and see what or who 'caused' the neuron to fire, or what had brought about the decision. nettie shared that she places the blame on herself - and who are we to judge that? Perhaps she will find in her heart to forgive herself. Perhaps not.

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mom1313
3. Why even with number 2 being said - do I feel a FEAR about my oldest son ending up in the ADULT forum - (will he be pushed to taking the course by his girlfriend who is doing the teen forum this weekend?) -- Why after watching your video did I feel like that if my son completes the adult forum that HE could end up like your friend?

The more important question is - why do you think your son will end up like nettie's friend based on nettie's experience with her friend? Is your son bona-fide mentally unstable? Let _him_ choose whether he wants to do the Forum. Don't do him the motherly favor of telling him what he's supposed to be doing. If he feels unprepared, he will say that, either way, without you pushing him either way.

I thought I would lose my mind the Monday following the weekend after the Forum. Yet I didn't. I didn't LIKE what I heard in there - not because I heard anything special or something I didn't know about us as humans - but because I was confronted with someone I had never been confronted with ever before - myself.

I still remained the same after the Forum, except the knowledge of who I really was (rather than who I THOUGHT I was) increased 10 fold, especially with regards to other people - #1 my wife, and #2, my parents.

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mom1313
4. Why - when it seems so many people on this board are smart intellectual, capable people, can they not PROVE the points they are making - I mean back it up with something substantial?

How do you know anyone here is smart or intellectual? And who said anyone is out to prove anything? All that goes on here is sharing of opinions about 1 of two things - someone's experience of an LGAT, or someone's opinion of what it might be like to experience an LGAT without actually experiencing it. Neither of which testifies to the intellect, intelligence or capability of anyone. Would you believe it if I told you I was a surgeon? Why would you?

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mom1313
5. Why am I questioning my judgement and my husbands?

I can tell you why I question my wife's or my parents' - because I never really was honest w/either of them about who I'd been w/them. The Forum brought about a shred of honesty in me.

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mom1313
6. Am I being brainwashed by LF or am I being brainwashed by buying into what is being posted here?

Good question - which is it? I actually thought my parents brainwashed me the most.

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mom1313
At this point I am afraid it will do more harm than good to go get my son. We are to be there at 3:30 today. I DO know that the statment "I choose not to participate...." is going to go to that meeting with me.

Then don't. No one is making you do anything.

mom1313:

Please understand that Lekkie is here as an apologist for Landmark.

Lekkie is no more qualified to give you advice about your children than Landmark leaders are qualified to conduct what amounts to group therapy through the Forum.

A child psychologist not associated with Landmark would probably be the best source for objective qualified guidance.

See [www.culteducation.com]

By reading through this subsection about Landmark Education you can see the company's history of personal injury lawsuits, complaints and bad press.

Many of the reports included are from journalists or others with first-hand experience attending Landmark's programs.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This is a study done by a clinical psychologist regarding LGATs like Landmark, which he calls "Mass Marathon Training."

Note 13 liabilities of such encounter groups cited.

# They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

# They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

# They lack clearly defined responsibility.

# They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

# They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

# They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

# They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

# They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

# They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

# They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

# They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

# They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

# They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.

Also note the four danger signs--

1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

In my opinion Landmark Education exhibits all four danger signs and I would not recommend its programs to anyone under any circumstances.

"Brainwashing," also called "thought reform," is not the same as other forms of persuasion.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the distinctions clinical psychologist and professor of psychology Margaret Singer made between education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform.

In my opinion what Landmark Education does can be seen in the category of thought reform.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2008 08:20PM by rrmoderator.

Sometimes I feel that talking to LGAT apologists is like talking to one of those automated phone systems - there is a voice, but no one is actually there. It's very frustrating!

they are there but they have an outer shield that "protects" them form rackets and winning formulas.

The way to go behind the shield is to show compassion - they know they are hurting inside. They may think that it is kind of lonely in there. Especially when you are involved in landmark and go up the ladder. Most introduction leaders do one year and then they quit - they are done with landmark. Then comes a new batch of lm robots - I didn't like when people quit - it made me feel that there was something wrong. Why didn't they take the next step to become seminar leaders?

Most people end up disgruntled with landmark after a while - even if they think that it is good. They start to see that it is only about recruiting more members to the cult. Enroll, enroll, enroll - meet statisics.

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Lekkie

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mom1313
2. Why did I watch the video and think there wasn't anything relating to the teen forum? Yet I know that you must think that LF was what pushed your friend over the edge. I HEAR your passion - but why did I find myself thinking "it wasn't LF - it just happened that LF was the straw that tipped the camels back" (please take no disrespect in my saying that) - losing someone that way must be horrible!

People get pushed over the edge for various reasons. Dissecting the reason why a neuron in someone's brain fired and had someone off themselves is next to impossible. The best we can do is try to reason about it, and see what or who 'caused' the neuron to fire, or what had brought about the decision. nettie shared that she places the blame on herself - and who are we to judge that? Perhaps she will find in her heart to forgive herself. Perhaps not.

----Lekkie I think it's pretty obvious what caused Nettie's friend to kill himself....His participation in Landmark. Nettie's friend isn't the first person to kill themself after participating in Landmark courses. There are numerous instances you can find if you peruse the web of people either killing themselves, running away, or having mental breakdowns after participating in Landmark.----

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Lekkie

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mom1313
3. Why even with number 2 being said - do I feel a FEAR about my oldest son ending up in the ADULT forum - (will he be pushed to taking the course by his girlfriend who is doing the teen forum this weekend?) -- Why after watching your video did I feel like that if my son completes the adult forum that HE could end up like your friend?

The more important question is - why do you think your son will end up like nettie's friend based on nettie's experience with her friend? Is your son bona-fide mentally unstable? Let _him_ choose whether he wants to do the Forum. Don't do him the motherly favor of telling him what he's supposed to be doing. If he feels unprepared, he will say that, either way, without you pushing him either way.

----Lekkie you're skirting responsibility here in typical Landmark fashion. She should tell him what to do, she is his mother and is legally responsible for his wellbeing until he reaches the age of 18. She is his legal guardian and has every right to pull him out of an organization or participation in something that could harm him. Especially an organization that is know for using brainwashing techniques on their subjects. Kids should be allowed to debate their parents and be part of a decision making process, it will help them grow and mature into adults that can make effective decisions. But she definately has the right to say "NO" and "Enough is Enough". If you don't believe me just go find a court of law and ask them.----

The more important question is - why do you think your son will end up like nettie's friend based on nettie's experience with her friend? Is your son bona-fide mentally unstable? Let _him_ choose whether he wants to do the Forum. Don't do him the motherly favor of telling him what he's supposed to be doing. If he feels unprepared, he will say that, either way, without you pushing him either way.


this is a glimpse into the mindset of a landmark grad


"dont do him the motherly favor of telling him what hes
supposed to be doing?



so many people can stuff stuff like this and just not get the fact as to what the other damage of landmark is.

landmark teaches these children not to do what their parents want them to but instead to recruit for landmark
and live for landmark and remove themselves from people who are not landmark.

very evil and so few realize.

quote:
I still remained the same after the Forum, except the knowledge of who I really was (rather than who I THOUGHT I was) increased 10 fold, especially with regards to other people - #1 my wife, and #2, my parents.



who is u really, and who did u think u was when u wasnt ?

a little question.

patrick-darcy - I thought I was the smartest human being walking around on the planet, a regular know-it-all.... Turns out, what I (or I suppose all of us) really wanted was attention, acceptance and love from other people, but was going about winning those things in the worst possible ways - by being cynical, resigned, attached to being funny and/or clever, by outsmarting people, by telling them what they know or what they don't know, by spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt about things I didn't know the first thing about (hmm, we have a President like that in office now!), other than what someone has told me or what someone put on some website about something.... I can go on and on - to say the least, I was a presumptuos asshole whom very few people wanted to be around, in spite of my six figure income, in spite of "living the American dream", in spite of being seemingly happily married, and in spite of having parents I thought I loved but deep inside resented - because they always told me what to do even as an adult, it was as if I was an extension of my father's/mother's identity.

Who I am now is none of what I just described. In the least, I've come to realize that is how I occurred to people in my life - and after I did the Landmark Forum, I actually had the cojones to ask a few of those people whom I thought I may have affected with something I've said or done to them for forgiveness - and some of them were like, "are you dying, is this why you are so nice to me? What happened :)? (that was the best one I heard), and another one was, "I thought hell would freeze over before I would hear you say you were EVER wrong about anything, being you're so "smart" ".... and I can go on and on here as well, as to the feedback I solicited with my new behavior around the same old people I've known for years.

nettie - it's funny you say that, because I know one of the sales people in the company I work very well, and he told me the same thing - "it's all about meeting statistics (or else you'd be out of a job too)". So, naturally, I was a little perturbed to hear that they saw me as "just another statistic", so I fired back at him - "So, you're just a number to the people that sell you food? I'm just a number to you when I say yes/no when you try to close the sale?" - to which he didn't really reply emotionally - given that I am not a sales guy myself - all he asked me was - "John - when you applied for this job, tell me, what were you doing inside of the 8 hour long interview with the team?". I smiled, thanked him and walked away. I did this after the Forum. Before that - I hated their guts. As a matter of fact, I _resented_ sales people in general.

Zorro - I was not skirting responsibility - I _have_ a child too. All I said was to for mom1313 to say it like this - "Son, I have fear, doubt and uncertainty about you attending the adult Landmark Forum as a result of my attendance to it". At that point she could say this - "Would you be interested in attending it?", rather than bark a command - "DON'T DO IT" - at him. What do you think is more likely to get a "NO" out of her son? That's what I was attempting to tell you, but I think you misinterpreted it or you may think that teens don't have cognitive ability....
My parents used to bark orders at me many times when I was young. Sometimes, they also used to make requests (e.g. by asking or offering) of me too, rather than order me around. Guess which ones I listened to and which ones I didn't? As a result of the Forum, I now damn well know exactly what works and what doesn't when communicating with people. Telling (ordering) people (teens or not) what they're supposed to be doing is an automatic resentment builder. ASKING them (e.g. making a request or an offer) instead has a powerful effect. You could get a "NO", but you will NOT get the resentment. That's what I want mom1313 to realize.

As for nettie's friends predicament - the only wrongful death lawsuit was this one - [culteducation.com], and I could not find any others. And the court found in favor of Landmark. Can you point me to other wrongful death lawsuits? I've been unable to dig up any. I'd be interested in reading them all. As for running away - I've known couples that've split up on far less than doing the Landmark Forum. In my own family my dad has not been talking to my mom's sister for over 30 years now. Wanna know why? She asked my mom to return a gift she gave her as an acknowledgment for taking care of me while my parents were away. She realized she couldn't afford it, so she ASKED back for it. My dad has carried that chip on his shoulder for 30+ years, to this day. Talk about splitting up the family - I give you mine (and my dad).

Lekkie:

Again, you are not qualified in any way whatsoever to offer a mother advice about her children.

This is better handled by a child psychologist, or a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Apparently, Landmark did quite a sales job on you.

According to your posts it seems that anyone who doesn't endorse Landmark's product, is somehow wrong.

But given the company's deeply troubled history, which includes repeated personal injury lawsuits, labor violations, constant complaints and bad press, it's more likely that you are wrong.

After all Landmark Education is a for-profit privately owned company, which is in business to sell its product for a profit collected by its owners.

In my opinion despite its name, Landmark isn't about "education," it's about manipulation.

This has been exposed through news reports--

See [www.culteducation.com]

And Landmark's ability to manipulate people is also illustrated by your posts on this thread.

What are you here for John?

It seems like your only purpose is to promote and sell Landmark in an attempt to help the company make more money.

Are you on commission?

Beware.

Landmark doesn't seem to always pay employees fairly, according to reported labor violations.

Imagine what people would say if Sears or some other commercial enterprise, relied upon free labor provided by "volunteers" to maximize its profit margins by reducing overhead.

That's called exploitation not "education."

Think about it.

And think about how a company with a reputation like Landmark sold a "six figure" guy like you.