Quote
vlinden
My ex was insulted that I could ever think he could be brainwashed. He came out of the Landmark carnival ride glassy eyed and vomiting up jargon, telling me everyone should take the Forum, everyone should have this experience, that he now saw the "possibility" for living a full, courageous and free life.

it is tricky... actually when you come out of the first course, the forum, this experience is real for the individual,
For you it is real - you have constructed a mindgame for yourself that is real. Then when somebody has doubts about this new reality you have to defend it or die mentally.

Landmark are very good at implementing this mindgame. All the leaders are running this mindgame on themselves. But to succeed with it you have to give the control of your mind up.

It is "interesting" that people willingly go into the trap without doing research first. But it is essential for landmark to keep bad publicity at bay. In some countries they have lost and left.

Too accept that you have been brainwashed is not easy. It's like you would be told that a table is not a table, a glass is not a glass. For most people (sane ones) that what be a bit harsh. But in a way a table is not a table unless we people agree on it. This agreement about what is real is a big thing in the advanced course. Everything is supposed to exist only in language - as an agreement between people. Which I guess is correct. The problem is when you start to think that experiences are not real. Then you can lapse into psychosis if you are unlucky.

I know firsthand - I was heavily involved with landmark for 4 years. They stole my mind for a while but I got it back.
The way to do that is to leave landmark - telling them that you CHOOSE to leave. Just say NO. Then probably you should seek some kind of counsel. Wellspring in the US are good. They can give you ideas. I spent 2 weeks there. They know all about these LGATs and other manipulative groups.

Hi Nettie.

I can understand if someone doesn't run into the bad info about Landmark, but I was waving it in his face for weeks before he decided to go. He was willfully ignorant. That's what was horrible. I'm surprised he didn't put his hands over his ears and make duck noises.

I understand now what he went through at the Forum, and I know how it hooked him in and how it will continue to hook him, now that he's going to take the Advanced Course. Everyone says that's where the mind virus is really deeply implanted.

I hope that maybe he'll have a really bad instructor or something will happen to wake him up because otherwise I'm sure he;ll sign up for the next level, and the next.

Posing it as 'a challenge' or 'an adventure' is very effective and seductive.

Especially if one has been socialized by American mass media/machismo (and a lot of girls and women are being sold and socialized on the adventure deal, these days, its not just the fellas)

How many of us feel grounded enough to say no to 'But you need to challenge yourself'? Its a set up that frames caution and fact checking as wimpiness.

Trouble is, there are things that look like a challenge, look like an adventure, but are no such thing---they are covertly orchestrated, scripted games in which you're going to play with a marked deck, have some wild mood swings, end eventually get drained.

As for experience, that isnt always reliable. That is why the scientific method was created.

An example of how misleading vivid experience can be. If someone has a serious feverish illness, such as the flu, their bodies will actually be hot, as measured by a thermometer.

But as a result of the infection, one's body released chemicals called cytokines, and these can screw up the parts of the central nervous system that affect how we perceive tempreture regulation.

You can be running a fever of 104-106 farenheit plus as measured by a thermometer, yet if your body is full of cytokines, you can feel ice cold, and be rolling up in blankets, begging someone to give you a hot water bottle or turn on the heat--when your body is actualy already blazing hot.

People wigged out on amphetamines will gouge holes in their skin, thinking bugs
are under there--but there are no insects. Its a typical warping of experience
produced by amphetamine psychosis. In the old days speedsters called these
non existent entities 'crank bugs'.

What is not yet understood is that we can be given misleading experiences in scripted social situations, adventures that look like adventures, but really are not. People dont want to see that this is so because it undermines our most
cherished notions that we are autonomous and too smart to be fooled.

Again, the glory and the danger of being human is that we are deeply influenced by whatever social context we are in---and its necessary to know how to evaluate these social contexts before we go too far in.

Its like sniffing and tasting food before gulping the whole plate down. If a morsel
smells funky, we know not to eat it.

We need to know that its smart to sniff for the equivalent of funky odors before we set off on what is sold to us as a challenge or an adventure.

One way to 'smell out a situation is to use Google--or at the very least, leave the credit card at home and listen to one's gut.

Must confess I do worry for the next generation. Many kids are so over supervised while growing up that they are robbed of opportunities for real adventures--fewer kids get safe, unsupervised play in vacant lots.

So when they grow up, they will need adventures and be quite vulnerable to being sold fake ones.

Must confess I do worry for the next generation. Many kids are so over supervised while growing up that they are robbed of opportunities for real adventures--fewer kids get safe, unsupervised play in vacant lots.

So when they grow up, they will need adventures and be quite vulnerable to being sold fake ones.


That is true, corboy.

I know that some wilderness programs for teens have gotten some flak for being almost like LGATs, and I'm sure some are. But I did a wilderness program in college that was wonderful, and life changing in a real and valuable way. I spent a month in the wilderness with 12 other people and was challenged in every aspect of myself. There was no abuse, of course, only mutual support, learning to work with others, facing our fears, etc. All while making a connection with the planet and learning real skills.

Anyway, it's something I recommend to everyone, and I often thought that my ex -- a city boy and computer programmer -- was SORELY in need of an experience like that. If he'd ever done something like it, I don't think Landmark would have had the pull on him it did.

I'd spent a lot of other time in the wilderness as well, but having the full expedition experience was unparalleled.

My uncles got into all sorts of foul and funny trouble when kids.

They found out in a hurry which of their friends would abandon them if they were caught, vs the real pals who stayed with them and took the rap with them.

If we dont learn these things when fairly young, (eg developing a BS meter) its painful as hell to have to play catch up later on.

Quote
vlinden
Must confess I do worry for the next generation. Many kids are so over supervised while growing up that they are robbed of opportunities for real adventures--fewer kids get safe, unsupervised play in vacant lots.

So when they grow up, they will need adventures and be quite vulnerable to being sold fake ones.


That is true, corboy.

I know that some wilderness programs for teens have gotten some flak for being almost like LGATs, and I'm sure some are. But I did a wilderness program in college that was wonderful, and life changing in a real and valuable way. I spent a month in the wilderness with 12 other people and was challenged in every aspect of myself. There was no abuse, of course, only mutual support, learning to work with others, facing our fears, etc. All while making a connection with the planet and learning real skills.

Anyway, it's something I recommend to everyone, and I often thought that my ex -- a city boy and computer programmer -- was SORELY in need of an experience like that. If he'd ever done something like it, I don't think Landmark would have had the pull on him it did.

I'd spent a lot of other time in the wilderness as well, but having the full expedition experience was unparalleled.

Eckhert Youth Services? I applied when I got a psych undergrad.

No, it was through the college I was attending at the time.

And interestingly it gave quite the opposite message from "life is meaningless." We were encouraged to develop a "sense of place." Which is something many urban and suburban kids like me never had, or even conceived of, really.

A sense of place has always been part of what informs meaning for humanity, and it's something we're losing. So it was interesting to have this idea put forward to me. Because we were going to be attending school in the Southwest, we were encouraged to learn about the area, its history, its resources, topography, legends, myths, etc. Many of us consequently fell in love with the place and tried to stay on.

The experience itself had meaning. The relationships we formed had meaning. Facing life or death challenges within a SANE and SUPPORTIVE group had meaning. The frigging PLANET has meaning. But it's for each person to discover within themselves, and that is a gift.

I do believe that lacking these very real kinds of experiences is what drives some people to Landmark. No wonder there are so many "techies" removed from life, sitting in their cubicles, getting neurotic, who end up joining these groups. They're ambitious and confused, just like my ex. The perfect storm.

Interesting discussion. I'm not playing devils advocate. But even if you have "adventures" and have been unsheltered as you were growing up and are in touch with the world around you. That doesn't neccesarily keep you from falling victim Landmark.

I grew up in the country, the nearest small town was 15 miles away by the highway. I was able to travel over the country side freely once I was old enough. We even raised a lot of our food. I even did a little hunting. I was in touch with nature and witnessed many times the rawness of life and death when one animal would kill another and eat it. I also got to marvel in the beauty of nature, the plants, animals, star filled skys, etc. But I wasn't a total country bumkin either.....

My dad drove an 18 wheeler cross country and regionally. From him I got to see a side of city life that was harsh. Loading docks, truck yards, and truck stops are not located in the best and safest places. Heck I never even saw an expensive neighborhood until I was 21 and only saw suburban neighborhoods a couple of times before then. He and my mom taught me street smarts to a degree. I got to see people manipulate people so they could get money, I saw what drug abuse and alcohol abuse could do to people I even knew what it was, I was familiar with prostitution, I was familiar with the fact that children could be easily kidnapped and bad things could happen such as molestation, and along the Mexican border forced into prostitution. My parents pointed all of this stuff out to me and explained the consequences. Therefore I avoided screwing up my life.

Because of how I grew up and what my parents taught me I developed a level of confidence in myself that not many young people had. Nor many people that are my age now, late 30's. Up until my Landmark experience I pretty much thought I was invincible and that I could handle anything that came my way. Traveling through Hoods didn't bother me. Crazy ass Redneck's didn't bother me. I could sense when things could go down and when it was a good time to leave.

But none of that totally prepared me for an LGAT Cult. To me Cults happened to other people and I would never be sucked into something like that. To me they were groups and individuals like Jonestown, Branch Dividian's, Heaven's Gate, Satanic groups and individuals. It was stuff I saw on Cable or Satellite. Stuff I read about in magazines and on the net. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would be sucked into something like that because I would be able to see it coming!

Boy was I ever wrong! Landmark has it's game perfected well enough that they can and will get past a persons defenses if the circumstances are correct and/or a person simply is ignorant of the fact that LGAT's exist. Both of which was my case.

What I'm trying to convey is this. No matter how good your BS meter is, if the circumstances are correct you can fall under their spell. Case in point. When I was in Landmark they used to brag about the fact that Family and Friends would come to see what Landmark was about and rescue their loved one from it. After "seeing" what it was they would sign up to take the Forum because they saw how wonderful it was.

I'm much wiser after my Landmark experience and I will and do pass on the knowledge and wisdom that I gained from screwed over by them. Sometimes the School of Hard Knocks is the best teacher. I can in an instant pick out a manipulative group or a group that has the potential to become that way. I'm also perfecting how to deal with them effectively, just saying "no" doesn't always work.

If you want to see how I've dealt with a recent LGAT Apologist encounter you can go to my myspace page: myspace.com/truth_and_reality and read my blog. An Apologist placed a comment on my blog "What was your Landmark Education experience like?" So I responded to him and made my stance clear and have not heard back from him since.

We have had visitors over the years who show up convinced that they can 'out think' an LGAT and almost dare us to talk them out of not going to one of these things.

Zorro wrote:

"What I'm trying to convey is this. No matter how good your BS meter is, if the circumstances are correct you can fall under their spell. "

I think that the combination of social scripting (including the reported use of shills and planted participants who give rehearsed personal disclosures to prompt others to spill intimate info), peer pressure, sleep deprivation, disruption of one's circadian rhythms, regression...all this may have an effect on our physiological hardware that may someday be identifiable by science as being every bit as real as the disruption of experince triggered by high fever.

You can have the greatest BS meter in the world but it wont help if you're running a temp of 106, or disabled by trauma or in shock due to bereavement.

It is why persons getting tough news from physicians are often advised to have a grounded, objective friend with them. Anxiety and fear can cause even the wisest of us to regress and make it impossible to us the full resources of our intelligence and education.

What is so humbling is that we are vulnerable. Many find this unbearable and listen to the seductive and false rhetoric of total personal autonomy and total personal empowerment.

Its much more liberating to face how deeply we are influenced by social context and then pick and choose the company we keep.

Hi Zorro,

I agree with you, which is why I would never subject myself to Landmark. I've heard too many stories about people who had every intention of resisting it and even knew exactly what Landmark was about, but still somehow they got past their defenses. A friend of mine last night was talking about "crashing" a Landmark session and I told her to NEVER do that, just stay AWAY from it. No point in playing with fire. And as for you I can see how the LGATs could have slipped in under the radar. They don't seem like a dangerous thing in the beginning.

In a way, growing up in nature is very different than finding it later, when you've been a city person all your life. I grew up in LA and NYC, and when I "discovered" the big wide wonderful planet it was like Dorothy opening the door onto Oz for the first time. This sounds romanticized, but to this day I return to the woods when I need healing and to set my mind straight. It's something I just can't share with my ex, he has no frame of reference for it, and I think nature scares him.

For me, one of the greatest "breakthroughs" of my life was when, sitting by a lake and watching a flock of birds wheeling in perfect formation through the sky, I realized that nature has its own intelligence, and humans have NOTHING to do with creating it. I was at the time involved in a great internal struggle about religion, and suddenly it all dropped away as I saw that life has order, and meaning, and it was here before anything we created -- including religion or cults -- and it was therefore something I could trust and relax with.

I know things get a lot more complex for humanity when determining their rules for existence, but all I can say is that I've found my guidance in the natural patterns and beauty of creation, and learning to relax with that mystery is an ongoing process.