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elena
How is it anyone was fooled by this idiot.

Ellen

"There's a sucker born every minute"

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caligari



The audio is a bit sped up (perhaps age of audio tape) -- makes Werner sound a like Mickey Mouse a bit ;)

LOL...

Mickey Mouse certainly fits the rest of his presentation. I swear I couldn't make heads or tails of whatever it was he was saying and I've decoded a lot of it over the years. And that nasally whine...made him sound like some third-rate Catskills stand-up. Only not even funny in a third-rate kind of way.

I did catch the bit about "independent thinking" he kept reiterating. Funny when you know he is really trying to indoctrinate a bunch of people into groupthink worthy of any Orwellian. Or the thing about cleaning toilets. Was he looking for someone to do housekeeping at Franklin House, do you suppose, and just trolling to see if anyone would bite?

Really, this was one of the worst things I have ever sat through. Like a bad movie, I kept thinking it had to get better. No. It really was just plain awful.


Ellen

Quote
elena

Quote
caligari



The audio is a bit sped up (perhaps age of audio tape) -- makes Werner sound a like Mickey Mouse a bit ;)

LOL...

Mickey Mouse certainly fits the rest of his presentation. I swear I couldn't make heads or tails of whatever it was he was saying and I've decoded a lot of it over the years. And that nasally whine...made him sound like some third-rate Catskills stand-up. Only not even funny in a third-rate kind of way.

I did catch the bit about "independent thinking" he kept reiterating. Funny when you know he is really trying to indoctrinate a bunch of people into groupthink worthy of any Orwellian. Or the thing about cleaning toilets. Was he looking for someone to do housekeeping at Franklin House, do you suppose, and just trolling to see if anyone would bite?

Really, this was one of the worst things I have ever sat through. Like a bad movie, I kept thinking it had to get better. No. It really was just plain awful.


Ellen

Yup, the thing is the event was for those who already went through the Training (and probably a lot more). And those that purchase and listen to the tape have probably already gone through a bit. This would not be provided for people not familiar with est. You've already accepted a close friend or family members advice to do the est Training. You've gone through the Training and at some point convinced yourself there's something special you've gotten. You've gone through several seminars with goals to make relationships work better, work more successful, etc. and shared your results. So you come into this event with assumptions, ideas you've accepted, and things you're quite willing to overlook and not be critical over. So someone there or reminiscing from listening to the tape is in quite a different frame of mind. A somewhat hypnotic and uncritical one.

Quote
caligari


Yup, the thing is the event was for those who already went through the Training (and probably a lot more). And those that purchase and listen to the tape have probably already gone through a bit. This would not be provided for people not familiar with est. You've already accepted a close friend or family members advice to do the est Training. You've gone through the Training and at some point convinced yourself there's something special you've gotten. You've gone through several seminars with goals to make relationships work better, work more successful, etc. and shared your results. So you come into this event with assumptions, ideas you've accepted, and things you're quite willing to overlook and not be critical over. So someone there or reminiscing from listening to the tape is in quite a different frame of mind. A somewhat hypnotic and uncritical one.

Yes, I can see that. There are quite a few recognizable embeds and triggers and a lot of "preaching to the choir." But the voice and "voice-roll," even slowed down, is something else. It's almost like some bad parent (parrot) screeching at you. I don't know -- maybe it taps into some primal "bad parent/authority/vengeful god" meme, or something. Maybe I was lucky but having had quiet and thoughtful parents myself, I can't see how this was effective. Someone speaking to me that way wouldn't get my attention, just the backside view of me walking out the door. I guess it might have been different if mine had been screamers or shouters or had some "boot-camp/prison-camp" mentality. Hmmmm....

Anyway, I've made an attempt to listen to the second of these tapes but all I can hear is the door-to-door encyclopedia salesman who "did" some scientology and threw that into his pitch. All the emphasis on just getting the ~commitment~ and then all the fake congratulations didn't sound like anything much more than the old foot-in-the-door stuff. Maybe there are so few of these guys out pounding the pavement nowadays no one much has had the practice of getting rid of them.

My worst suspicions have been confirmed.



Ellen

Here's an interesting bit about "groupthink" from wikipedia. I've added comments [in parentheses].


[en.wikipedia.org]

Symptoms of groupthink

In order to make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms that are indicative of groupthink (1977).

1. Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.

[Landmark's so-called "possibilities" and "unreasonableness."]

2. Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.

[They dismiss critics as "cynical & negative" and rarely acknowledge any real concerns.]

3. Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.

[No one seems to do much questioning of certain of the more perverse, deviant, or exploitive of the behaviors of members. Has anyone seen any Landmarkers commenting on the behavior of Darren Mack, for instance?]

4. Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.

["Cynical & negative," again.}

5. Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".

[Members are encouraged to be "coachable." And I'd say the pressure is certainly direct.]

6. Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.

[Yes. We've seen enough of that.]

7. Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.

[All the phony-baloney "Landmark identity" and "branding" stuff like calling themselves "graduates," for instance.]

8. Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

["Those-who-assist," and door-guards, I presume.]


Ellen