I just found this old post from Corboy on another thread. It says some things very clearly that I've tried to articulate in other threads about the problems with New Age practices, applying ancient mystical teachings to every day life in the modern world. I think it applies very well to members of LGATs like Landmark, and ten times over to Byron Katie worshippers.



From an article on yoga

[www.lorinroche.com]

Quote:
meditating is like running, or any sport or form of training – injuries happen. And injuries are to be avoided if possible! They ruin the fun. But the denial system in meditators is so intense they can't stand ANY hint that their practice may be less than perfect. And this denial, of course, is one of the hidden dangers of meditation. Go figure.


From an article on two paths--renunciate practice and householder practice and problems that may arise if detachment practices are wrongly prescribed for persons whose actual life path is through relationship not detachment from relationship...

[www.lorinroche.com]

Quote:
Almost all books on meditation available today are written by people who were inspired in one way or the other by the great monastic traditions of India and other Asian countries. Almost all teachers of meditation are either monks or nuns, were trained by monks or nuns, or were trained by students of monks or nuns. So attitudes of renunciation have come to be synonymous with meditation.
When householders practice meditations designed for renunciates, they inadventently damage the psychic and energetic structures they need to make their way in the material world. Meditation works, and it works on you on a deep level. If you go into meditation with the idea that you have to detach from the world, you may get more than you bargained for - you may find yourself gradually getting dissociated, removed, alienated, and depersonalized. It is always easier to destroy than to create, and detachment means to cut off or separate. It can take years to rebuild connections that you have severed through mistakenly practicing detachment.

In a nutshell, monks and nuns evolve by living a life of detachment, disconnection, and aloofness. They may be very attached to their robes and their spiritual order, but their practice is about renouncing their desire for "worldly things." For them, spirituality is irrevocably tied up with denial.

Non-monks, on the other hand, evolve through working with the material world. Detachment is not the primary attitude to cultivate. Rather, the opposite of detachment is indicated: being involved, close, committed, and intimate. For some odd reason, this distinction is not being honored, and the wrong techniques are being taught on a wide scale.


Quote:
The Path of Attachment and Involvement

People who have families, jobs, pay rent or mortgages, and live in the real world, have very different needs in meditation. Recluses call us householders. Houeseholders do not need to constantly kill off their natural impulses. As a matter of fact, the last thing they need is to weaken their desires, instincts and intuition. The path of the householder involves working with attachment. It is very daring to be attached. Tolerating the experience of attachment takes courage. Personal bonds are attachments. Loving someone is an attachment. Householders, when they meditate, should savor every sexual impulse, cherish every desire, honor and listen to all their instincts, and cultivate their general enthusiasm for life.


When The Paths Become Confused


When householders practice meditation in the style of a recluse, and practice detaching from their desires, they often find that over time their instincts become weaker, their intuition becomes flawed, they become confused about their desires, and they start looking for an external authority to dominate them and tell them what to do. This is what happens when you practice detachment. When you internalize toxic attitudes (such as advocated in The Precious Garland) toward your desires, attachments and your identity, you will indeed find over time that your individuality is weakened and you start longing for some dominant male to tell you what to do. You will long for shelter in a religous organization, spiritual collective, or cult. As you separate yourself from your personal desires, you become magnetically attracted to people who have strong, dynamic egos. In other words, the center of life is moved from being inside your body to being out there, somewhere. This process of depersonalization usually takes several years, and people are generally surprised at how deep it goes. It is not unusual for it to take ten or fifteen years to recover from several years practicing meditation in a mood of renunciation.

It is not the meditation per se that is harming you, it is the attitude of detachment that you are practicing. In other words, taking on reclusive attitudes is like taking the treatment for a disease you don't have. If you are healthy and strong, but your doctor thinks that your strength is a sign of a rebellious spirit that needs to be broken, and gives you chemotherapy and radiation, you will get sick. When householders become weak from meditating, monks and nuns think this is great, that you are stepping onto the spiritual path. But it is one thing for a monk or nun to have no money, be celibate and obedient. When a householder is influenced by monastic thinking, she just becomes broke, lonely and submissive. This is not evolution, this is just damage, unless it really is your destiny to leave everything and everyone and go join a religious order.

A lot more research needs to be done in this area. For example, some people can breeze through years of Nagarjuna-type teachings and then just slough it off when they are done. It was no weirder than their family of origin, and maybe it helped them to expunge something. Others are deeply affected in a negative way...

Quote
vlinden
I could probably still have some sort of relationship with my ex without him feeling like he had to enroll me in Landmark -- at least I think so. I may be wrong. But I just can't stand to talk to him while he's so engaged in this. It's like he's infected with a virus, and I can't . . . stand it . . . I can't to hear about Landmark, I can't stand to hear how he thinks he needs it (when he isn't saying he doesn't need it -- he flip flops) how he's doing good things with Landmark -- as if billions of people aren't doing good things in the world without lining the pockets of Werner Erhard.

And because of how it seemed he rushed away from me into the arms of Landmark, it's like the "other woman" and as long as he's in it . . . I just can't.

But I admit to backsliding a bit lately. I thought I was really over this, my vacation was great. But the past few days have been hard again. I want to talk to him, I miss him. But he's not . . . the person I want to talk to. That person just isn't there anymore.

But I'm holding on too long.

vlinden, you might have people who will tell you to let go, and you might have people who tell you otherwise. When I first discovered the rickross site it was quite by chance when I was googling neurolinguistic programming. But I am sure glad i did, as it helped me imensely.

i discussed my "friend" who got involved in Landmark, and some people told me that i just had to let this friend go. But the truth is, since I was so afraid of what Landmark can do, i did not say that this friend is actually my child. AND NO WAY was i going to let my child go so easily. I did devulge the true fact to two individuals on private emails, and they were incredibly supportive. I got some really good information which I think may have contributed to the fact that my child is no longer (to the best of my knowledge) involved with Landmark - however, i am still on tenterhooks, and every now and then i ask: "have you seen any of your Landmark friends lately?" to which the reply is "no" - and I'm fairly certain that is the truth, as the demeanour of my child seems to have reverted back to normal. But, you see, i am still being a bit oblique here, you may have noticed that i do not mention the gender of my child...i am still a bit nervous that Landmark "junkies" are visiting this Board.

Anyway, I do go on, eh? - but i am not in a position to agree or disagree as to whether or not you are "holding on to long"...sometimes you have to follow your heart.

What I did find most helpful though, was to NOT set up resistance in my child by talking against Landmark. I had to remain absolutely neutral, even though inside my head I was shouting "STAY AWAY FROM THOSE CROOKS". I just kept repeating that I AM happy as I am, that what I am doing is working for me, and that really, Landmark has nothing to offer me. I also said things like: "well, I'm happy that you are learning that about yourself."...etc, all the while standing my ground.

BUT, i must admit, I did attend several sessions with on the PRETEXT that i was interested in joining, just to make sure that my child did not sign up for any more sessions. Fortunately, the money ran out and I was not going to lend any. I also advised friends not to lend the (adult child i should add) any. Then I also said, "you don't go to work for nothing, you work hard all day and you expect to be paid, why should you work for Landmark and not expect to get paid?) - that actually DID make an impression.

I had invested many many many years in my relationship with my adult child, which is a good one (Landmark very nearly messed it up) - so no way was I going to let go so easily. But it have me lots of sleepless nights, and nearly a nervous breakdown on top of it.

So, try not to be too hard on yourself. Read some of the suggested readings on how to cope with people involved in cults. Anticult and a lot of the older members here have good ideas. And if you are physically and emotionally up to hanging on and trying to get your person out, then go for it. But arm yourself first, otherwise it will just burn you out.

And keep coming to the rickross site, with your worries, with your questions etc. It can only help.

regards,
Shad

postscript:
i will try and find that list i got from an expert on deprogramming cult victims, a list of things to do and say, and not to say, etc., when talking to loved ones who are involved in cults. I might have filed it under "L" in my filing cabinet. If i find it I will post it here tomorrow, or Saturday.

regards for now,
~Shad

Hi Shadow,

It's too late for all of that, for me. I've already messed it up completely. I've railed for weeks on end against Landmark, I've attacked his intelligence, character and inner strength, I've walked away from him completely because of it.

So . . .yeah.

And you know, it was all absolutely honest. I really felt and believed everything I said. So there you go.

But he's not my child. That would be a totally different thing, and I would do what you did. For me, I was crushed because he was my lover, and he turned into a very weak man who claimed he needed Landmark more than he needed our love.

So . . . yeah.

Thanks for the words, though. I've been kind of having a relapse of heartbreak the past few days, but it will pass.

okey dokey, vlinden, i understand.

and as far as heartaches go, well, the come and go, and in my experience, looked at philosophically, you know the old say: "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all!" - it is really true, as you (i suppose i mean "I") grow in years and wisdom, i can look back with a certain amount of delight in my "lost" loves. Something I hate them, but more often not I can think of them fondly and what they contributed to my life.

Yes, you are right, it WILL pass, and when you meet someone else who truly appreciates and deserves you, you will rejoice.

regards,
Shad

p.s. I should have "previewed" the previous message.

corrections:- should read - "THEY come and go"; SomeTIMES..." etc.
~Shad

Thanks, Shadow. I sure hope you're right.

I escaped from a very small cult, but the damage is identical. It only affected a few families. However, being I was victimized as a young child and into my young adult life it was a long time before I could really look at all the aspects of how it affected me.

Detachment is healthy in certain situations. It isn't always an escape from reality. It's sometimes an escape from the horrible unrealities that were forced upon a victim. It might do more harm than good facing them all at once. I understand though it's different when one is getting tricked by another's "enlightenment" when that enlightment is actually a clever way to control masses of people. And when you are squashed down and stepped on for the most of your life it is a healthy thing to navigate to others that are strong. It allows you to literally be taught how to live again the right way. When one is actively healing and making steps forward, there are times when a strong souled individual can be the link to assist in pulling you out of the mud.

It's literally like someone whose had a stroke and has to learn how to talk again. I victim of a cult has to relearn how to be strong and stand on their own. So many post tramatic issues-(flashbacks) to overcome it's unreal. I find myself migrating to dynamic personalities, I do believe, not because I need a crutch or someone to be strong for me, but because I'm at the point in my life where I'm much stronger to hold my own. I used to fall into more dependent, unhealthy relationships when I was weak and confused. However, every one of those people were instrumental for me to see that I needed to take further steps in personal progress. So in a way those unhealthy relationships where OK because I grew as a result. I feel there is a reason for everything.

The most difficult challege here on this planet is to avoid negative people that will suck the life out of you. No matter how it's analyzed or stated it just is. One has to think for themselves. Period. You must be able to have your God given free will to be in the lead of you own path. No one else should dictate or paint a rosey fake picture of a la-la land.

FF

Quote
The Shadow

Quote
vlinden
I could probably still have some sort of relationship with my ex without him feeling like he had to enroll me in Landmark -- at least I think so. I may be wrong. But I just can't stand to talk to him while he's so engaged in this. It's like he's infected with a virus, and I can't . . . stand it . . . I can't to hear about Landmark, I can't stand to hear how he thinks he needs it (when he isn't saying he doesn't need it -- he flip flops) how he's doing good things with Landmark -- as if billions of people aren't doing good things in the world without lining the pockets of Werner Erhard.

And because of how it seemed he rushed away from me into the arms of Landmark, it's like the "other woman" and as long as he's in it . . . I just can't.

But I admit to backsliding a bit lately. I thought I was really over this, my vacation was great. But the past few days have been hard again. I want to talk to him, I miss him. But he's not . . . the person I want to talk to. That person just isn't there anymore.

But I'm holding on too long.

vlinden, you might have people who will tell you to let go, and you might have people who tell you otherwise. When I first discovered the rickross site it was quite by chance when I was googling neurolinguistic programming. But I am sure glad i did, as it helped me imensely.

i discussed my "friend" who got involved in Landmark, and some people told me that i just had to let this friend go. But the truth is, since I was so afraid of what Landmark can do, i did not say that this friend is actually my child. AND NO WAY was i going to let my child go so easily. I did devulge the true fact to two individuals on private emails, and they were incredibly supportive. I got some really good information which I think may have contributed to the fact that my child is no longer (to the best of my knowledge) involved with Landmark - however, i am still on tenterhooks, and every now and then i ask: "have you seen any of your Landmark friends lately?" to which the reply is "no" - and I'm fairly certain that is the truth, as the demeanour of my child seems to have reverted back to normal. But, you see, i am still being a bit oblique here, you may have noticed that i do not mention the gender of my child...i am still a bit nervous that Landmark "junkies" are visiting this Board.

Anyway, I do go on, eh? - but i am not in a position to agree or disagree as to whether or not you are "holding on to long"...sometimes you have to follow your heart.

What I did find most helpful though, was to NOT set up resistance in my child by talking against Landmark. I had to remain absolutely neutral, even though inside my head I was shouting "STAY AWAY FROM THOSE CROOKS". I just kept repeating that I AM happy as I am, that what I am doing is working for me, and that really, Landmark has nothing to offer me. I also said things like: "well, I'm happy that you are learning that about yourself."...etc, all the while standing my ground.

BUT, i must admit, I did attend several sessions with on the PRETEXT that i was interested in joining, just to make sure that my child did not sign up for any more sessions. Fortunately, the money ran out and I was not going to lend any. I also advised friends not to lend the (adult child i should add) any. Then I also said, "you don't go to work for nothing, you work hard all day and you expect to be paid, why should you work for Landmark and not expect to get paid?) - that actually DID make an impression.

I had invested many many many years in my relationship with my adult child, which is a good one (Landmark very nearly messed it up) - so no way was I going to let go so easily. But it have me lots of sleepless nights, and nearly a nervous breakdown on top of it.

So, try not to be too hard on yourself. Read some of the suggested readings on how to cope with people involved in cults. Anticult and a lot of the older members here have good ideas. And if you are physically and emotionally up to hanging on and trying to get your person out, then go for it. But arm yourself first, otherwise it will just burn you out.

And keep coming to the rickross site, with your worries, with your questions etc. It can only help.

regards,
Shad

I couldn't agree more Shadow. I lost my wife to this five years ago and I still come back to see and relive it all. Some would (could) say I was weak minded (hahaha) but the more I read the better I understand. I too would have done anything to protect my children from the PSI Basic kids course (what a joke) and I did. I thank my lucky stars that the court listened to me when it cames to keeping my children away from her. I still love and miss my wife, but I had to let that part of her go. She is still a lost cause.

Hi Samual,
yeah, I am so glad the court was able to support you, but I am so sorry about you losing your wife. I can imagine the pain and loss you must feel. Well, MAYBE, one day, your wife MIGHT see the light. Maybe one day she will accidentally come accorss this site, or who knows....but I guess there is not too much point hoping.

I'm not sure why I still come to this site, perhaps to try to help others, but also because it has only been about 5 months that my child has not talked about Landmark, and I am still not sure that there will be no involvement...i sure hope not, but as I said before, I am not quite "breathing easy" yet! Not sure when that will be either. Perhaps only when Landmark no longer has an office here where we live.

But I think it is good for people like you to continue to post your story because you will definitely be helping someone else.

regards,
Shad